SkySoaringMagpie

I think you just assumed something you shouldn't have. In any case, who would prefer they suffer? Most positive trainers will fit a head collar or anti-pull harness in that situation (whether they are positive tools is a separate discussion).

This is not an area where depth of knowledge is the only factor. Sometimes what the trainer is looking for in their own dogs is not what you are looking for for your dog. Sometimes the breeds they are experienced with and the goals they have for their dogs are different. Sometimes they select for dogs that can take the type of training they dish out, and that doesn't translate well to companion owners who picked the pup because they fell in love and wouldn't consider getting rid of a difficult to train dog. Sometimes they are fine with doing things you are not fine with, and knowledge isn't the only issue there, values are. There is one instance I remember quite clearly where I deferred to a much more experienced person and let them take my dog and in doing so I let my dog down. I can remember her flipping about on the end of the chain and the person next to me saying "don't look". Never EVER again. I don't care who I offend. There are also too many people around who claim long years of experience and haven't kept up to date. Time doesn't necessary equal distance traveled. For me, the risk associated with being considered an upstart is fine, it is that better I wear the pain of a bad decision in that respect than my dog wear the pain of a bad decision.

I agree. The last thing you want, no matter what tools are used, is to go to a class you're not comfortable with. Tools are only one part of the class, the most important part is the instructor and their capacity to pass on their knowledge in an effective way. If you attend by yourself first, you'll be able to observe properly without worrying about your dog and what it is doing. If the lady is a nice as she sounds, hopefully you're on a winner! That said, I have a close friend who had a BC. They attended a check chain class in the early 90's and she literally could not check her dog. It just didn't sit with her personality and it wasn't something she was comfortable with so every time she tried she made a hash of it. She got very distressed at herself for not being tough enough but he was not a problem dog and if someone had shown her some alternatives she was a consistent and smart woman and would have been able to do them fine. This board can be a bit religious about training tools sometimes. You are not obliged to do anything with your dog that you are not comfortable with no matter what anyone says or implies about your character. As long as you keep an open mind and a clear eye about what is in your dog's best interests you will be fine. If that means that instead of attending this class, you use the money to travel to buy a couple of one-on-one lessons from a recommended trainer that's a better option than putting yourself and your dog through something that is stressful and uncomfortable for you. That goes for positive classes as well, they can also be a waste of time with the wrong instructor.

It's more that it's more complicated, so you can draw some broad themes but it really depends on the actual behaviour and the personality of the dog and trainer. Someone can be an aggressive demanding bastard but if they are always consistent and clear and the dog knows exactly where it stands and exactly what it needs to do, then it will be in a different position to a dog belonging to person who is hot headed, irrational and throws a mess of cues and signals at the dog so that it has no hope of working out what is expected. Likewise some dogs cope much better with human bullshit than others do. If you pair a dog that copes well with aggressive and demanding with the first owner, it's not how I want to live, but I think that dog would do better in that situation than a situation where you pair a soft dog that doesn't cope well with a mercurial irrational aggro handler.

I agree with Cosmolo that sometimes they are timid and avoidant instead. However, I would also say that someone who does not "have it together" whether they are not in control of their temper (aggro), or not in control of their life (whiners), or have A-type anxiety problems (LOL, me!) will have a negative effect on their dog unless they take active steps to reign in their particular "issue". I think it's one of the truisms of dog training - unless you master yourself, you can't properly master the dog. How you tell someone that they need to grow up for their dog's benefit is the tricky part. Fortunately I've had people in my life who were happy to say "for god's sake, drop your shoulders, stand up straight, get some perspective and start behaving like someone you'd want to follow".

Top idea for a thread Nekhbet! My recommend for Canberra is either Lake Burley Griffin or Lake Ginninderra. There you get: Ducks including dead ducks and carp for that all important "leave it" command Two large bridges with footpaths near heavy traffic on both lakes Wooden piers to walk on The Carillion chimes on Lake Burley Griffin Swans Joggers Bike riders including 3 wheeled rental bikes Sail riders Dog walkers Kids Water plus fish every now and then and fishermen Fast food outlets and BBQ's on Lake Ginninderra Family picnics with people playing footy or cricket Not somewhere to take a dog with major issues obviously, but great for every day socialisation. Plus there are plenty of places to withdraw if your pup needs a break.

Seconding Erny here, I had one of my dogs tested through Dr Dodds recently and she was able to make informed comments about sighthound ranges which can be different from other dogs when it comes to thyroid function.

But I'm not seeing accusations of abuse here in this forum. I saw this instead: Now my opinions are coloured by wild animals and soft dogs, and if I get a hard dog and discover I need punishments in my world after all, you'll all know where I will come for help. That doesn't sound like "you lot are abusers" to me. I'll happily admit that out there in doggie world you will find people who look at you as if you're Hitler if you have your dog on on chain leash, but in this discussion forum those people do not post as a rule.

I'm sorry, I think you all need to HTFU. I have previously expressed empathy for people who feel that they are being pilloried for hurting their dogs - check out the most recent e-collar thread for an example. I do get it. However, you are insisting that people can't feel differently based on their own experience, which is where the line is crossed for me. You can refrain from judging someone and still decide that their decisions are not for you. I have a Christian sister who is convinced I am going to hell because I don't share her values. I have vegetarian friends who find it repulsive that I eat meat. I still manage to reach out to them, even tho' their beliefs put distance between us. I certainly don't take it personally, why would I? Are we allowed to decide we don't want correction as a first line option for our dogs or not?

Corvus said that they had no interest in judging. Why are you hammering at this? What is the injury to you in someone talking about their own personal experience? Is there fundamentally a problem with experienced people saying they prefer to avoid correction? I don't think there is. Ultimately we are dealing in personal values with a lot of this stuff, and that goes for the pro-correction anecdata as much as anything else. Edited to fix the quoting html

Corvus, I wish I was as eloquent as you. This expresses my feelings on the matter really beautifully. Thank-you.

The gentleman who bred my Bahraini import takes a lot of photos on their hunting expeditions and uploads them to You Tube. I would love to go there one day but for now I find these photo montages really fascinating. And let's face it, rather intimidating, in that "how the heck do I live up to this?!" kind of way. The collars are GPS collars. Corvus, dead hares in these, you might want to skip them. http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=KzsGaFHshNU http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=E6TypB2-Coo And if you want to keep looking you can just follow his user ID. I would LOVE to see videos or photo montages recommended by others as good examples of dogs working at their original purpose. I've looked for gundog stuff after seeing a couple of shooting segments on the Hugh Fernley-Whittingstall River Cottage episodes but couldn't find anything that showed much. Also, if you're not in the breed, it's harder to know how authentic it is. If you keep looking for Saluki stuff you will eventually find bored young gulf states men throwing cats into a pack of dogs and a lot of other stuff that isn't in the spirit of the traditional work of the dogs. I'm sure this kind of stuff exists for other breeds too. This is why I didn't post this into the General Forum, especially not with what's in the press at the moment

Well, to be fair, surrender rates don't tell you a lot. Old school disposal methods were to drop the dog on a remote country road, take it to the dump and shoot it, or otherwise get rid of it - going to the farm via the vet for example. Also, reasons for surrender can be notoriously flakey.

Both are good. I was an instructor at ACT Companion Dog club - Symonston - until we moved to Yass. You'll find there is a lot of cross-over with instructors amongst the clubs. Bear. I agree with Bear, and not just because I'm being a polite OH I have instructed at Symonston and Belconnen. One thing to keep in mind no matter which club you go to - if you feel that the instructor you have isn't a good fit for you and your dog you can always ask to change to another class. Edit: There is also cross over between instructors at the RSPCA and at the dog clubs.

I've met a few. Some have their heads on straight and are absolute gurus, others you would not take the advice free let alone fork your hard earned $$ out for. Being a vet doesnt automatically make you better at understanding dogs. Also what seems to constitute "behaviorist" in the veterinary world may be a little misleading at times. The word "behaviourist" is used misleadingly in a lot of places, that's not restricted to vets. Anyone can put up a shingle and call themselves a behaviourist. However, in this case, they are clear about qualifications and what they mean: http://www.avsabonline.org/avsabonline/ind...&Itemid=357 Suggesting that people are not expert in their speciality is easily said, you had suggested that they needed broader experience with difficult dogs for example. I am not seeing anything in the replies coming back on this that provide anything but opinion and anecdote as a backup to this view tho'. How do you know they don't have broader experience? I'm still not convinced it's an outrageous document, it seems quite balanced and credible to me.

I posted that a few weeks ago. No-one commented then. What exactly is wrong with it? Do you think the science is poor? If so, in what ways? The two people who put together the articles at the link you provided have PhD's in animal behaviour. Exactly why is it crap? Do you have a cogent rebuttal?

Well, they are veterinary behaviourists. Whatever you think of their position statement, I think it's fair to say that their members would have seen some pretty troubled and difficult animals because its their job to deal with those kinds of animals.

Are you saying this because their position is to try non-punishment methods first? They allow for punishment under the supervision of an experienced trainer who understands it. What else would you want them to say? They don't discuss how reinforcing delivering punishment can be to the deliverer of the punishment, and that is my major issue with unsupervised and/or inexperienced punishment. So as far as a position statement goes, it's less critical of punishment as an option than a lot of positive trainers would be. My suspicion is that it depends a great deal on the dog you have in front of you, which would make a study that attempted to give a broad picture very hard. Some dogs are hit very hard by a timeout, others see it as a reward depending on the context. Likewise with other methods. Honestly, I think the best results would be gained in educating people how to observe their dog and work out the best methods to use for that dog. It's not one size fits all.

Why's that? Is there a group you think has credibility?

Ultimately you have to make up your own mind. Cosmolo has seen the dog, so is in a better position to comment about what might be going on. The value of having second, third, and fourth ideas is that if something doesn't appear to ring true or to work you can try something else. Keep other ideas in the back of your mind as an option you can try if you need to, don't over-analyse to find The One Right Way. Dog training for your average owner is usually a processs of exploration - and it should be, really. Also, while I live in a house with multiple dogs (5 dogs) and have had to develop some skill in multiple dog situations, I am no Kelpie expert nor a spitz breed expert. If Kelpie-i posted, you would bear in mind that she knows Kelpies when weighing up her advice against someone else's for example. Advice to be wary of is advice that is more about the poster's ego or ideology than about helping you with ideas to try. You will spot this kind of advice pretty easily.

1 - Deal with the dog in front of you. His history might be interesting, but ultimately what you have here is a dog who is interested in what you're doing. That's a useful thing to work with, hypothesising about his past is less useful 2 - Guarding food is a behaviour that has served dogs well for thousands of years. It doesn't always fit into a modern household with people who want the dog to be "nice" to the other dogs in the household, but it's totally normal. Ours are all separated when we feed them, not just for behavioural reasons but because they are on different diets, and we don't free feed. Separate them at mealtimes. 3 - I have a dog that does this. I ignore him and continue to pat the other dog. I also make the demanding dog work before he gets pats and I can train him easily any time because he's a fool for pats and attention. It's not dominance in my view, it's just going after what is "good stuff for dogs". If Rusty will work for attention and pats, you have it made - be grateful and use it! 4 - OK, now you are really overthinking it. Some dogs do like to lead on, but some are just more "on their toes" or keen to find out what is around the corner. I can think of two of ours where one will want to stream ahead and the other ambles. The ambler is the more dominant one. Identify the behaviour you want on walks, and train it. Just as a side note I don't "heel" on walks - walks in our household are for reading doggie email (politely) and exploring. Heeling is working time, not walking time. 5 - In a household of more than one dog, no dog gets the luxury of leaving a bit until later. Humans respect the last bit of chocolate (sometimes). Dogs do not as a rule. Take up their food if they haven't eaten it in the allotted time. They'll soon learn that saving leftovers is not an option. 6 - Not necessarily, he just wants the toys and is motivated to guard them from her. Not everything is about dominance. I can take anything from any of our dogs and not worry about my fingers, but they will sometimes put on a display with each other about something as stupid as a stick, or a sock, or a piece of fluff. If I see unacceptable behaviour around an object I take it away. 7 - Over thinking again. If he's more bonded to you for whatever reason then he doesn't have to greet your fiance with adoration. I usually get home later than my OH. My dogs go into somersaults, my OH's old Afghan might lift his head to check that it's an acceptable human but otherwise does not give a shit. When I call him in from the yard tho', he listens. I don't have get the same attention from him as he gives to his favourite human, I just need to get an acceptable working level of attention. 8 - Work out what behaviour you're happy with, and intervene if you're not happy. Mine hump hither and thither - they have become practised at avoiding an unwanted hump as well. You will develop an eye for what is safe testing and what is getting unacceptable. I would drop the dominance theorising and when you see something you are not happy with ask yourself: - What is it about this that bothers me? Is it my human values that are offended, or is it something that may negatively impact my dogs' quality of life? - What behaviour would I like to see instead? How can I train that behaviour? Is it more appropriate to put in place a management solution?

For a while there I felt like a pure breed alien until I ran into a dog (large, labrador like but with a wavy coat) in the waiting room and the owner admired my Saluki. I'm no gundog expert and just assumed it was some kind of X. I figured be polite and ask what his dog is. Chesapeake Bay Retriever. I nearly jumped in the air and fist punched a "Yes!". Instead I just gushed politely about how nice it is to see rare working breeds etc etc. Enjoy the

They turn into huge dogs too. Friends of ours spent megabucks on a poodle X but were horrified when it just kept growing. They hadn't realised that one of the parents could have been a Std. What does that mean I wonder? Most puppy classes I've been in teach verbal corrections and timeouts for rough play. Although, speaking of puppy classes, the last vet one I went to with one of ours was completely full of oodles except for one lab and my pup. All the owners were talking to each other about the money they spent. The winner of the conversation was the person who spent 2K on a "rare chocolate [x]oodle". OH couldn't take it and didn't go back the next week, I toughed it out because my pup needed the socialistion. I'm lucky I still have a tongue, I nearly bit it clean off when one of the oodle owners asked about breeding...

Go Luke and Barkly I suspect you might find that at the beach you were more relaxed and less fixated on stuff not working and it showed in your handling.

The destruction thread is here. The main thing I noticed was that some people were taking a "my dog would never dare!" view of it, and other people were taking a "eh, puppies chew" view of it. There were also some different views re management vs training. I love the "never losing your temper" thing, it's something I aspire to - mostly succeed but still don't have a completely calm approach all the time.