SkySoaringMagpie

This is getting awfully confused. At the conference he said that if he thinks a person will have a wide influence he will attempt to convince them - the issue at hand is not discussion, or attempting to convince someone, the issue is arguing about training theory. You can convince someone without arguing online about training theory, in fact if you want to convince someone with even one year's experience arguing training theory online is not going to cut it. Are you convinced of someone's methods simply by reading what they have to say online? Say someone gets on here that you have never heard of and argues that they can train a completely bomb proof recall on any dog without an e-collar using PP methods. Would you simply accept that, and toss your e-collar training business and do what they said, or would you want to see a pretty convincing demo?

I went to Sydney. The three days covered Aggression, Training Adult Dogs and Training Puppies. I've only written down what was important to me, if I haven't said it, it doesn't mean it wasn't covered. Any errors are mine. Some of the digressions, particularly the one about working out when a bitch is ready to stand, were the best parts for me! That came up in a discussion about teaching bite inhibition to a singleton puppy. - He was very strong on quantification and demonstrated the shorthand he uses to calculate the level of compliance his students are achieving (ie, number of cues before they get compliance). He talked about giving students their "personal bests" as part of getting them to improve. He was critical of classes where improvement wasn't quantified and was critical overall with respect to standards in training. He's pro returning to exams. - He said that with any tool, be it food, halti, e-collar or chain collar, the goal should be to use it as a training tool, and have a plan to phase it out. He was as critical of people who can't get rid of their food pouches as he was of anyone. - He said that techniques need to be achievable by ordinary adults and children, and that trainers should be careful that techniques they demonstrate are accurately achievable by people in their classes. He mentioned that with children, the dog needs to be providing willing and happy compliance. - With respect to fighting, what he said about the pattern of first fights occurring at the age when most owners are dropping off on socialisation made a lot of sense to me, as did the observation that then is the time to intervene heavily and get the owner being proactive instead of hiding the dog away. I had seen the fight bite ratio before, but it was useful to see it again. - He went into detail about their growl classes and the criteria he uses to screen dogs for class work as opposed to private consults. He also spent time talking about how to manage the freaked out owner and about the fact that far more kids are killed by their parents than by dogs. Adult dog day was controversy day! - He's into instructive reprimands. I may try this with our bonehead and see what I think. I have never heard anyone suggest it, it's always been a "don't" in all the classes I've been in and books I've read. I won't suggest it to others until I try it myself. - He's anti using the quadrant and thinks that dogs read things in a more binary way - ie, it's either good for dogs or bad for dogs. His criticism of the quadrant was that it doesn't make intuitive sense, and that it's confusing for new people and fodder for pointless trainer arguments. - He's pro putting the cue before the behaviour when lure reward training. More heresy! I'll give it a shot with stuff I think I have a good lure with, again with my bonehead, and see what I think. - I have lots of other less controversial techniques to try which is great. I am trying not to bombard the dogs with them all at once - Doggie dictionary. I need to write mine down, his questioning people about what their dog's name means was really interesting. - They played a video of a puppy class, and his explanations of which puppies had "red flags" and why was really really useful as was the discussion about how to handle them. Another thing I found useful was the way he suggested using class members who have good dog skills with the iffy puppies, and putting the good puppies with the iffy people. - He is promoting the idea of "Canine Country Clubs" - an ongoing socialisation "club" for dogs that have completed puppy classes to avoid the problems found in open dog parks with unsocialised dogs. - Finally he said that the relationship should be reflected in everything you do, and that if something goes wrong, don't accelerate the process of disintegration by overreacting. The guy is not short of an ego but is much MUCH more old school than I expected from the way people react when they hear his name. He was also quite critical of himself in some of his old videos, and pointed out where he had made mistakes, which is the kind of big ego I can deal with. I'm glad I went, would like to hear impressions from others too.

I didn't say that. I'm on a computer now for example and there is chat from me in a number of the forums today. I am talking about a specific subset of discussions, arguing about training theory, particularly when it's going over old predictable ground. I also personalised it. I can say "I am not talking about JulesP" if you like, but I thought that much was obvious.

That last link returns to this thread. The other two are pretty sad sure, but certainly no worse in my mind than the Millan one I posted in General. For those who haven't clicked on the links, they do not feature Dunbar. Are they linked off dogstardaily? Anyway, as they are bad, it should be easy enough to do one that is better and send it along to him to link to instead! Who said the use of aversives is cruel and wrong? Poodlefan mentioned that she thinks the debate is one of degree. That's certainly my position, which is not that aversives are always cruel and wrong, but that one should be looking for the best way in any situation. What I think is the best way won't necessarily sync up with what the next person thinks the best way is. Arguing about that is pointless because it comes down to personal experience and values in most online fora. Heck, sometimes it just comes down to who has the most time to keep debating. What stands is independent studies and demonstrations - particularly demos that are useful for the pet owner. Incompetents can be found in every field, it's sorting through what the competent have to offer that is important. Edited because I can't spell.

That last para is an example of the problem. I said in my first post that I was planning to write a report but that that observation was one "one of the most useful things". I did not say it was "the best thing". I also clarified that the issue he was addressing was arguing over training theory, not about using the internet to assist people. Perhaps if you have a life as busy as mine, being reminded that you need to get off the online hamster wheel and start doing more of the things that will give you higher life rewards really is incredibly useful. Is that really so bad? Seriously, if you have two people arguing over training theory, and they are entrenched, and the same discussion has already been had a number of times, and you can practically predict who will say what, wouldn't all those people be better off in their yards training their dogs instead? Does that kind of discussion really benefit the newbie? Or will the newbie get the impression that they could easily be dogpiled (so to speak) if they say the "wrong" thing?

Poodlefan has nailed it. It's a long story, but my approach to dog training is influenced by two other pursuits I have some experience in - one I'll mention, martial arts, the other I won't discuss. To go into it without giving everyone a couple of wines would no doubt be very boring, and it's possible people would read some implied criticism in it now that I have a rep as "one of the positive trainers". So I'll shut it. Like Midol (much as it pains me to say) compliance is not my number 1 priority. It comes in at around a 3 on the list, and as I have basically well mannered dogs who I can pursue my goals with, I'm under no pressure to shift compliance to the #1 spot. I understand that not everyone has that luxury. Poodlefan, if I were PP I don't think I could correct you Humourless git observation: a lot of people with sighthounds got them from rescue or breeders who insisted as a condition of sale than the dogs never be walked off lead. It's a condition imposed by most greyhound rescues.

Good idea, consider it stolen Speaking of eggs, I accidentally dropped two raw eggs on the floor the other night so did what all right thinking dog owners do and called over the dogs. Except that the dog that came first was our old Afghan who promptly dragged his ears in the eggy mess - much to OH's disgust *slaps self* Edited because I can't do verbs today either...

I've been a bit wary of cabanosi since those studies came out linking processed meat to increased cancer rates in humans. Given that we are much bigger and uglier than our dogs, and cabanosi is awfully fatty, I've tried to steer clear. My dogs are much bigger than yours too. That said, if I'm at the supermarket and need something fast I'll grab a stick. The other thing we use a lot is cooked chicken breast or cheap steak chopped into tiny chunks. Low fat, additive free, easy to cook - we just chuck it on the George Forman grill or pick apart a BBQ chook when we've finished with it. People often react a bit in class to the idea of giving chicken and steak but it's no more expensive than most crappy bagged dog treats and a lot healthier. I like dried liver as a medium value reward. I usually have a bit of kibble as well. I also pick over our human leftovers - if we have some bbq'd sausages, grilled chops etc (also not screamingly healthy) I chop them up and use that. Once they've been in the fridge overnight they seem to have better structural integrity!!

He did NOT say that discussing stuff is bad, he's all for using the internet as a tool to share training ideas and he has a very large website with video and information on it. He said that arguing about theory and whose way is better is a waste of time - which is where this thread was going like so many others before it. Some subjects here are not so much a dead horse as a greasy mark on the concrete. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying anyone else should do what I'm planning to do - however, I thought it was worth throwing it out as an idea for those who might be feeling frustrated. Corvus was sounding frustrated by the time I chimed in, perhaps I'm wrong and she finds the discussions energising. In which case, more power to her (and you).

Do you like to hear it 20 times tho'? What about the same discussion 20 times? We do that here all the time. I think there comes a point when it ceases to be a productive use of one's time.

I plan to do a full report when I have the time, but one of the most useful things I got out of the Dunbar conference this weekend is that arguing with other trainers online is worse than pointless. He caned the positive people as hard (if not harder) for this as anyone else. People are in entrenched positions, and if they are in an anti-intellectual position as well they will be even less inclined to have a worthwhile discussion about it. Dunbar suggested demo'ing methods for people (by video if necessary) if it's important to convince them, but otherwise not bothering with online back and forth. Think he described most list and board discussions as "bullshit". With the benefit of 3 days away from the computer, I agree with him. I plan to go and train my dogs instead the next time I get an urge to argue about theory. I know which will be a more useful way to spend my time.

It's hard to know what to suggest without knowing how trainable your OH is. I would continue to teach the dog my way and ignore the OH. The dogs know who means business and who doesn't. If he says it doesn't work, just simply say "it works for me" and let him think about that. Remember to reinforce your OH when he does do the right thing. If they were my dogs, I would make it clear that if they are let off the leash if I am not there I would consider it a relationship deal-breaker.

I've heard people say that with show dogs it is the making of them but I think they're talking about fire and maturity, not nice behaviour. Apart from anything else, putting a dog over a bitch purely for a behavioural benefit for the dog is incredibly irresponsible from a breeding perspective and displays no consideration for the bitch's health.

We feed separately, with 5 dogs I can't be bothered to muck about so we use crates. That way you don't have to deal with them scratching the door down or trying it on. I also agree with TSD, slow the fast one down with a buster cube or one of those food bowls designed to slow them down. Our resource guarder becomes totally fascinated with his buster cube which works for me because if he's batting it about, he's not worrying about everyone else.

Poodlefan has done the hard yards in obedience and agility, and I think her counsel is wise. You have a teenager, often teenage problems require time and management, not further hammering. I am a shocking a-type and one thing most of us have to be careful of is keeping our egos in check. I think one of the best things you can do for your dog is to develop a hide like a rhino, so that if it is non-compliant in public you don't immediately react by pushing harder (you or him). Or if you have to say "nope, I'm not doing that" you can do so immediately considering your dog's best interests rather than whether someone is going to think you are "not trying". Stressing out on "standards" is a good way to send a lot of anxiety down the lead and ruin the relationship. After all, your dog cares about how rewarding it is for him to work with you, he does not care about what other people think, or about ribbons. I'm not saying standards don't matter, but it's better to get there slowly, than burn out.

I agree, it happens in the show ring too. Compliance is not the most important thing all the time, the bigger picture and quality of life is important. Susan Garrett also mentioned rewriting Ruff Love when she was in Canberra. People had taken the program and totally forgotten that they were dealing with a sentient companion which lead to some situations which were abusive. Play is important, time with the owner is important, downtime alone is important. Also, question from a sighthound owner - why exactly does it bother you that he enjoys time by himself? What is wrong with that, providing his obedience is holding reasonably well during what is a challenging age? I'm with Poodlefan, it might be time to back off a bit.

I consciously do this a lot, especially when starting out. Our first dog would look up and scan the horizon when we called him back because recalls always meant "fun is over". We were really crueling ourselves. Now we do a lot of reward and release and the others don't scan the horizon for rabbits and dogs as soon as we call them

Usually just human leftovers, providing they're not full of onion etc. With one or two exceptions, my guys aren't prone to getting fat and I don't cook high fat so it works for us. In summer I freeze them. I also make Kong minceicles with pet mince from the butcher if I don't have any leftovers.

I took a class once with 5 labs in it, all adolescents. Sheer madness, particularly for a sighthound owner who values calmness and independence. Sadly I think a lot of people get labs because of their reputation as good family and working dogs. And they are with the right handling and training. However, the adolescent "if it moves, bounce on it, if it doesn't, eat it" approach to life must be hard to take if you're used to seeing labs on kleenex ads and working as guide dogs. In fact I think I feel sorrier for owners of breeds with "good" reputations because at least if you own a breed reknowned for being hard to train, if you bugger it up no-one is surprised and if you get it right, they all fall over in shock.

Mine disliked Great Barko more than just about any other kibble. One refuses to eat it and the others only eat it if I mix it with another kibble. Is Uncle Albers similar in texture and smell? I noticed the Great Barko was pretty smelly.

I don't think hard exercise of the kind Millan advocates is a good idea for a growing dog, if you're not going to desex because of growth plates, then over-exercising is also an issue for you. And from what you've described, you're walking more than enough for a growing dog already. I would increase the mental exercise instead, start teaching tricks and playing find it games and otherwise giving the little bugger something to think about, it should take the edge of the hyper. The kind of thing SnowySal talks about is the kind of thing that has worked in our household. "Barking" back at the dog by yelling is just reinforcement. But you need to understand a bit better what your specific circumstances are and how the dog is reacting. So I think you probably need a pro still but don't be afraid to try a different pro if the one you've tried hasn't worked out. Has someone visited you at your home and watched him react to the TV? Does he get opportunities to interact appropriately with other dogs so that he can be reinforced for calm behaviour around dogs? Another thing I would do is work on self-control exercises - you're already doing stays but leave its and go to your mat and other things like that are worth doing. Finally, adolescent dogs, particularly males, mostly come in one variety: annoying. Some of the OTT behaviour drops when they get that second brain cell at aged 2 y/o. We have a puppy barker and she has gotten better just through us being careful not to reinforce her barking. She's not a model dog, and she still barks, but she's getting there and she's just a 7 month old so she has plenty of time to wise up and settle down. If the behaviour was getting worse I'd be worried, but it's not.

Pics to prove it or it's not true! Borzoi. 'nuff said! Second most beautiful dogs in the world after Salukis. ;)

You've said neatly in a few sentences what I struggled to say in paragraphs. Your dogs are EXTRA beautiful tho'

In the jealousy thread, someone talked about their dog being a household princess and being spoiled. I have a princess that I treat differently, my oldest retired girl. I am easier on her because I know she's a steady settled dog with good manners and I know how far I can go with spoiling before I start to give myself problems. I don't work her as hard before giving her rewards, sometimes I'll give her a treat and say "and this is because you are beautiful". I'm sure that would give some people here the horrors, but it has not turned her into an aggressive dog, she's still quite calm, takes treats delicately and has good house manners. So really she's a princess in my eyes, rather than a princess in behaviour. I have an entire male who we are much more on top of all of the time. He behaves like a supermodel so he gets the Ru Paul treatment: "you better work!" He needs inflexible consistency about what is OK and what is not OK all the time. If we treated him the way we treat my girl, we would have a ton of problems. I could impose the the rules I apply to him on all the dogs using the lowest common denominator as my guide, but it doesn't seem necessary. We give them the guidance they seem to need, if that makes sense. What do others do?

Some vets will tell you it is not possible or will refuse on the grounds that they believe repeat vaccs are totally safe and a cheaper option. I just made an appointment with a different vet to our usual vet to get titres done for my dogs.