SkySoaringMagpie

Re the "kiss of Allah", I mentioned I was going to ask people more knowledgeable than me. I have had two replies from old school Saluki people who have spent considerable time in the middle east, one is a noted expert who has lived in Iraq and spent time with local Saluki breeders. They both say that this is a western romanticisation and that an Arab Muslim would NOT invoke the name of Allah in connection with a dog, even if that dog is a Saluki. I got the impression from one private mail I received that over the years some of this has been akin to us teasing tourists about drop bears. Other myths are that the Saluki brought home food for the Bedouin pot (in fact they had herds of goat, camel or sheep and a sophisticated barter economy) and that Allah "blessed" the Saluki. Also not true for the reason noted above. Apparently in Iraq the white patch is sometimes called a star, and a bitch with such a marking will be called "Najma" for that reason. Thanks for the question, it's helped me clarify an area of my own knowledge. Edited to fix a pronoun.

Heat doesn't bother mine at all. In fact, when we were having those furnace-like temps last summer I was having to call them in from the yard to the aircon the daft buggers. I would not leave a Saluki in any situation that I wouldn't leave a normal dog in in summer, but they don't suffer in the heat in my experience. They do get cold - they are light framed with very little body fat and unlike Borzoi and Afghans, they don't have a big coat to keep them warm. It can be hard to keep the weight on them in cold weather. I have just upped the amount of food I am giving to my two younger ones because they are starting to look a bit thin. Mine have pajamas for when they are outside in the runs during the day when we are at work and they sleep inside at night. I would not recommend they be kept outside overnight during a Southern NSW winter.

She is probably talking about a patch of white in the middle of her dog's forehead. Two of my kids have it. I can't speak for others but from what I've observed here in Australia it's a point of cultural interest but not something that people here aim to produce in their breeding programs. I'm actually going to ask the question on an international breed list because when I googled this to confirm my vague idea about it google turned up a mish mash of sometimes contradictory information.

Are Sibes similar to Alaskan Malamutes? What are the differences?

This is a bit like the recall discussion in the sibe thread. Based on what I've been told I understand it is possible to train this with some Salukis. Most people don't have either the time or the skill - and I include myself in that category. You're pushing up against a lot of hardwiring. So for a new handler I would say the safest answer is no.

I haven't had enough exposure to OFC and lure coursing in Europe and the US to comment on the non-show coursing lines. I now have a job that will put me in Europe twice a year so I'm hoping that I'll be able to get some more exposure to it if I can. In the US, this kennel has been very successful at both coursing and conformation (and agility): http://www.windrushsalukis.com/home.html I am showing a bitch bred by a country of origin breeder who hunts and does not show, and I am really pushing it up hill. There are things about her that are not "generic show dog" that make it difficult. I almost feel bad for her, because I know she has brothers and sisters who are hooning around the gulf deserts catching hare and she's here in our weirdo little world of infidels feeling her up on little ringed off bits of grass. I probably also make it difficult for myself in that I haven't advertised her, and I'm not one of these people who airily makes remarks about quarantine in the ring because I am genuinely curious about what judges will make of her. So we keep punishing ourselves! In fact, I think I'll go and take her for a run in the paddocks now...

Mine do a lot of boxing and chasing too. My newest girl arrived at the same time as an Afghan puppy, and they have bonded and do a heap of boxing, chasing, mouthing and carrying on. I think (unless they're running with greys or whippets) they can be too much for your average dog because they are so fast and furious. My girl used to be known as "the exercise dog" in the back paddock of the obedience club because she would take off, and some of the bigger breeds like Dobes would take off after her and they could never catch her. It's almost like they let the other dog get closer and then shift into turbo drive and speed away laughing. The owners of the dogs trying vainly to catch her loved it, because it really tired them out!! With jogging I've just done it within our 6 ft chain wire fences and just let the Salukis lap me about a zillion times More seriously, when we lived in suburbia I would use scouts pace on walks. When they had been well behaved on the lead I would pick up into a jogging pace for a bit as a reward and that usually worked out fine. I don't see a problem with them as jogging companions provided appropriate loose leash walking training is done and they're on leash.

Just a quick comment about age: Saluki puppies are usually like any other well bred puppy: playful, curious, sociable etc. Different lines do different things but usually you only get the final adult personality around the age of 2 - sometimes later. That's where you should start to see the more mature breed characteristics come out in the temperament. Colour and coat patterning is something that even people who have been in the breed a long time do not necessarily agree on. This is a very large file (around 24 MB!) but if you have broadband it does a pretty good job of explaining the different coat patterns and colours, tho' some of the terminology is US terminology: Saluki Club of America colour presentation I agree with Natty that the right fit with temperament and personality is far more important for a family pet than the colour. Whatever colour you end up with, you will most likely grow to love. The variety of Saluki colours and coat patterns is one of the lovely things about the breed.

Brindle is different to grizzle and is not mentioned in our standard. margot, who posts occasionally in the sighthound thread, is the brindle saluki expert. I have put a nudge in that thread for people to come and post here.

The Australian standard is based on the 1923 English standard. The Australian breed extension, which is available from the ANKC website, covers the parts that are missing from the standard. There was some discussion a couple of years ago about changing the standard to the current FCI standard which is more detailed but also contains some controversial points. Agreement could not be reached so we still have the 1923. In the breed bible Saluki: Companion of Kings, Vera Watkins says this about the standard: The urgent matter at the time however (1922/23), in the interests of the breed, was to form a Club and draw up a standard of points which the Kennel Club could adopt and approve. Despite much argument, it was done, and it was very cleverly done to include all the types then in Britain. It must be frustrating for trainee judges, but I like the fact that our standard isn't heavily detailed and prescriptive. OH has two Afghans. To me they are quite different to Salukis but to an outsider comparing both to a non-sighthound, perhaps they would seem similar. They are both athletic, independent, aloof and from the same breed "family". To me Afghans are more clownish, more laid back and they like an audience. Salukis are more on their toes with the world - they also have a particular sense of humour but unlike the Afghans usually they are laughing at you, not themselves. To me Afghans are more fire, and Salukis are more faraway in expression - if that makes any sense at all. Physically the dogs are quite different underneath all that coat, Salukis are not just a shaved off Afghan. If you compare a smooth Afghan with a smooth Saluki the physical differences are easier to see. I think Natty has also had Afghans so I will be interested to hear what she thinks.

1. What is my relationship with the breed? (ie breeder, first time owner etc) I have three Salukis. 2. Where and why was the breed first developed? The Saluki is widely considered to be one of the first breeds. Paintings and engravings of dogs resembling Salukis can be found on ancient archeological sites dating back thousands of years. Saluki type dogs can still be seen in the countries of origin from the Gulf States to North Africa to Iran to Khazakhstan. The modern Saluki in the West was defined by people who took them back to England, and later, to North America. As with other aspects of middle eastern culture and geography, how the West divides up dog breeds does not always sync up with how inhabitants of the country of origin would separate them into breeds. One of the reasons our Saluki standard is so broadly defined was to take in a range of different types. The Saluki and its cousins like the Azawakh and Sloughi are sighthounds and were bred to hunt game such as hare and gazelle. 3. How common is it in Australia? It is not a common household pet as some of its characteristics are not popular with people seeking family pets. 4. What is the average lifespan? 12-15 years. It is rare for a Saluki to live past the age of 16. 5. What is the general temperament/personality? It will depend on the breeder you select but a Saluki should be affectionate with its owner and aloof with strangers. Aloof does not mean timid or scatty, it means that the dog will reject affection and interaction with people it does not know, often by turning its head away. Friends and family who are used to dogs that are always waggy tailed and happy to meet new people may be offended by this. Puppies and adolescents can be inventively and remarkably naughty and destructive if not managed appropriately. Salukis will treat you as their own personal staff if they can possibly get away with it - they believe they own you, not the other way around. They are very good at training their human owners. They are also cat-like in their independent, aristocratic attitude. If unquestioning adoration and biddability is important to you in a dog, do not get a Saluki. 6. How much daily exercise is needed for the average adult? Different breeders and owners will have different views. I believe that for good physical fitness they should have the opportunity to walk or run a couple of kilometers a day. For mental happiness, I think they need weekly offleash running in a large very secure fenced area where they can really stretch out. They live to run. They should not be run with small dogs, especially small toy breeds. Even with a muzzle on, they can wind up playing soccer with smaller dogs and they have a very robust play style. The literally thousands of years of breeding for hunting ability that sits behind the modern Saluki can mean tragedy in the wrong circumstances. 7. Is it a breed that a first time dog owner could easily cope with? No. They are challenging to train. You must be precise and gentle. They will shut down if your methods are too heavy or you are too inaccurate. Unlike a Border Collie, they were bred to work independently of their master, so often appear "cloth eared". They are not a biddable dog, but can be trained with the right methods. They are not a good choice for someone who wants a dog they can walk, play and run with offlead in public spaces. They have no road sense. They are also fast long distance runners, and if they spot something like a cat or a rabbit while off-leash they will run after it and you will have no hope of catching them on foot. 8. Can solo dogs of this breed easily occupy themselves for long periods? Yes, providing they are given solid exercise in the morning and the same in the evening. Like many dogs Salukis are most active at sunrise and sunset, and will sleep during the day providing they are given sufficient exercise and mental stimulation before you leave for work and after you get home. Puppies may struggle with being left alone all day, an adult dog would be a good choice. 9. How much grooming is required? For the feathered dogs, ears and tails must be brushed each week or they will get knots and tangles. If you are planning to desex your Saluki, it will probably grow a long fuzzy coat. Salukis can be prone to ear infections like other drop eared dogs, your breeder will give you advice on how to prevent and manage this if necessary. If you brush your Salukis ears regularly, you will spot any trouble quickly. 10. Is it too boisterous for very small children or for infirm people (unless the dog is well trained)? Unlike a Stafford, most Salukis don't cope well with children's boisterousness and unpredictability. Some do; many don't and can wind up needing to be rehomed because the mix with young kids did not work out. A Saluki is not a good choice for a family with a child with unpredictable behavioural issues. Many Salukis do not tolerate a lot of loud noise and argy bargy very well. A dog that is not trained needs to be in the hands of someone who is physically fit, as they are a fast athletic breed. I would not recommend them for infirm people for this reason. 11. Are there any common hereditary problems a puppy buyer should be aware of? This breed has a relatively small population base and there is no central register of common hereditary issues in Australia. I recommend people read the Saluki Club of America health website: http://www.salukiclub.org/SalukiHealth/SalukiHealth.html Some people will say that Salukis are a problem free breed. This is not true, there are diseases that have turned up often enough that they may have a hereditary component including hemangiosarcoma, auto-immune haemolytic anaemia and epilepsy. 12. When buying a puppy, what are the things you should ask of the breeder? (eg what health tests have been done (if applicable) and what is an acceptable result to those tests so the buyer has an idea of what the result should be) There are no genetic health tests specifically for Salukis yet. A reputable breeder will be able to talk about the lines they are using, and will ask a vet to perform a health check prior to breeding. A health check will cover things like cardiac function, a blood screen and a physical exam. A breeder may also choose to hip score their dogs. I recommend that people talk to a range of prospective breeders about their views on Salukis and health. Different breeders are breeding different temperaments; some more traditional, some more friendly. The latter may suit pet homes and first time owners better.

You have to rely on the officials and club committee - most of the time they'll spot someone doing something inconsiderate and tell them to stop but sometimes it's hard to spot something before it's too late. When we were very, very new and wet behind the ears we started disassembling our gazebo near a ring doing a stay. A club member rushed up and told us not to. We were mortified and instantly stopped what we were doing, but we learned to pay attention from then on. Most of the time it's just cluelessness but as you say, it's pretty irritating if you are sitting on a pass! The other thing I think is rude is to regularly take a dog whose stays are not proofed into a ring - whether because they are just not trained well enough or the dog has a DA problem. When Faxon was going through there was one dog who regularly broke his stay in a distracting way. People would pray they weren't next to it in the catalogue. Sure, the other dogs should be proofed, and Faxon once held a stay like a trouper with a small herding dog standing in front of him eyeballing him ;) But I think it's one thing to take a dog in if it's not quite there in a solo exercise, another thing if it has a habit of regularly ruining the day for others.

Does a dog need to understand the science of a training technique to be trained by it? Providing your timing is spot on, and a warning signal plus a NRM helps here, the time out is just like any other punishment (providing the dog experiences it the way you think they are experiencing it).

Perhaps he is referencing more to dogs with more serious and/or more ingrained behaviour issues (seeing as it is those ones he normally works with)? If so he should be clear about that because he has a responsibility, given his incredible access to the hearts and minds of dog people, to be precise. This is actually a frustration I have with a lot of training discussion. If you look at many of the threads here, people often come in and say "well, that won't work with hard core case X!". Maybe not, but so what? I know pet dog training isn't glamorous, but if mild unsexy techniques work to keep those dogs from becoming hard core problems and/or to keep them out of the pound, then they work in my book. Not everyone is training BYB GSDs or pitties.

I am surprised Milan is saying it doesn't work when it does work for those who apply it correctly. I've got one dog I occasionally sin bin. The others I don't. It works for me, and the reason it works with one and not the others is, as others have said, the personality of the dog. I wouldn't sin bin the others because it would be unfair on one, and the other would welcome the peace and quiet!!

To you it's a much loved book. To him its a teething rusk. Pack the away or get them up out of reach.. he's at teething age and if he can rip something to bits he will. I have lost antique sheet music that it killed me to lose, but the dog has no idea about the difference between yesterday's newspaper and a beautiful early 19thC edition of Mozart piano music. I agree with Poodlefan that anything you cannot afford to lose should be put away out of his reach. Crate training is also useful for this kind of thing, as you can put the dog away with appropriate things to chew when you cannot actively supervise.

Make sure you do a lot of pleasant touching of her head and face as well - if the odds are the dog is going to get a pat rather than eyedrops they'll be easier to handle. If the only time you go for their head is to do something unpleasant, it makes it harder.

We do heartworm tabs during summer when we have mozzies. We don't give them anything during the winter as there are no mozzies then. So far we haven't had any problems. I would not give the heartworm injection.

Has she said why she has ruled that out?

You and your wife have specific criteria for "dog on the bed" that I think you need to manage yourselves rather than trying to train into the dog. A dog that is never allowed on the bed and a dog that is always allowed on the bed if he meets certain criteria know the rules of racing with the bed, your guy doesn't imo because it's dependent on the time of day and what you and your wife want to do. If this were me I would baby gate the bedroom. I would ignore whining at the gate. Wife puts dog away when she is ready to sleep and rewards dog for sleeping in the place she puts him. You go and get dog when you would like doggie company. Or arrange with your wife that she allows him in to the room when she leaves for work. That way it isn't up to the dog to know when to ask and when not to ask.

That would definitely be my guess. If it was a pee spray, you could tell by it's shape, surely? That's what I thought, and this is just the standard splash pattern you get from working in a kitchen. The kitchen also doesn't smell like pee, but I still get paranoid because I know people get used to smells.

We have a house guest this weekend so, even tho' they are a doggie person visiting for a show, I like to make the place as pleasant as possible. I went over the house carefully with a black light this evening to find and clean any peemail from our dog. I was happily surprised how little there was, I usually let my imagination run away with me about the house being a filth pit but I only found two light patches and a small dried puddle in a crate. Except for one place - the kitchen. There was stuff on the cupboards, stove and fridge that fluoresced but it wasn't pee like marking (clearly I have unclean cupboards tho' ). Does food contaminated liquid fluoresce under the black light? Or do I have to resign myself to an awful truth that the kitchen is being creatively marked? I have treated all the fluorescing surfaces with an enzyme based cleaner, I just hate the idea of pee in my kitchen...

I did read it that way, my apologies. Glad to hear you're not talking about training methodology but attitude. In that case I would agree, plenty of people on all points in the spectrum have unreasonable attitudes about what dogs can and can't do and should and shouldn't do. The point I am trying to make is that it is not just people on chintz sofas serving up the dog's cooked dinner on bone china that have unreasonable attitudes, it's also people with a big chip on their shoulders who insist that their dogs have complex deductive reasoning powers and punish the hell out of them for not living up to uncommunicated standards. Those people do crush spirit and need to have the excuses they use to do it removed. I don't think the study supports either position tho' - it is just challenging some dominance theories. That is not the same thing as advocating no guidance for a dog at all. I agree with you that the public does unreasonably expect a watered down dog that does not bark, pee, shit, or get sick and which self-trains and reads minds. It's up to us to educate them that such a dog is not fair, possible or indeed a dog. It's part of what I consider my challenge, because while my breed is not physically threatening, it's still an ancient breed that is not easy for Joe Public. It bothers me that it is harder to find homes for them because people want a dog, but don't want a dog that requires effort.

Did you read the bit in my post where I said I use corrections in some circumstances? Are you as concerned about the way people who don't use corrections are being stereotyped in this thread?

so having a set of testicles now denotes whether a dog is capable of dominance ... Who said that? Either you agree neutering is significant (and therefore significant enough to ditch the study over) or you don't? I know that when people have posted on DOL about neutering to reduce aggression I've cautioned that it may well not have that effect. All I am saying is that chucking out a study because it studies neuters isn't reasonable. I would like to know more about neuters, and welcome studies on them. Sample size is an issue, but it will be an issue for anyone no matter what side of the fence they are on - ethically and practically these days as well. Where do you get enough dogs to study for as long as is necessary and ensure their well being at the same time? I don't think the study is arguing for that position. If you can quote to me a section of it that is let me know. Pathetic anthropomorphism existed well before the first wave of positive training and well before scientists started studying dog behaviour. Some of the most pathetic anthropomorphism I have seen has been from correction based trainers. I can recall one woman at a show once whose incredibly patient dog put up with her whole crazy script of punishment, complete english sentences and playing for the crowd like a real little trouper. I felt sorry for it, being yelled at and pushed around when half the time it was just minding its own business. Loonies with serious emotional issues exist on all points on the dog training spectrum. People are the most dangerous predators on the planet. That aside, you do have to be careful not to crush spirit and shut a dog down and you can take control without doing that. I don't have a problem with telling people to think carefully about the relationship they build with their dogs. I set boundaries with my dogs which I stick to, but I don't use physical correction (with the exception of very rarely scruffing the male - usually when the bitches are in season and he is thinking with the little brain which limits my toolset). Most of the reason I don't use it otherwise is because it's not necessary. I have well bred aloof breed dogs who are master manipulators but who have never given me any physical challenges of any kind. I have to use my brain and be painfully consistent, but I very rarely have to chastise.