Natsu chan

No it's not, the council planning laws will make it illegal to whelp bitches indoors. Most puppy farmers have big set ups out in the country in large sheds that are erected per council planning, a lot of registered breeders have a handful of dogs who live as pets in their homes. The laws being pushed will allow the RSPCA to come in seize anyones pets without laying charges or ever needing too. They will be able to seize breeders dogs based on the fact that they are not following planning laws by whelping bitches in kennels outside, currently councils don't bother with policing this and most people aren't even aware of the existence of the law because the councils when asked tell them they only have to comply with the animal welfare laws which simply isn't true.

The RSPCA will get the powers to go in and police council planning and environment laws and seize animals based on those as well as welfare. So if someone is caught with a litter inside not out in the kennels they will be in trouble. The same goes for annual vaccination that is law too, the RSPCA will be able to seize animals just because they haven't had an annual vaccination. This is in spite of the fact that the AVA is saying they shouldn't be vaccinated annually.

It's horribly confusing even for people in the know never mind the rest of us! The laws themselves are badly written and confusing to begin with without even going into what's actually wrong with making things like vaccination timetables law.

We just need to find away to make good manners more socially valuable then peer pressure does the rest.

In my view dogs with their OC should have free rego, now before every one goes oh but the average Joe will never get an OC on their dog so why bother, let me say that if that is offered and a flier is put in with each new puppy/dog registration disk that would really show people that having a well trained dog is considered to be a very good thing. At the moment in Victoria you might as well not bother there's simply no reason to except for self gratification. People who get high level titles on their dogs are far more likely to be responsible and knowledgeable and this should be rewarded and encouraged.

Council should provide incentives, demos of CGC tests at council days and may be demos of other things like flyball and agility. Puppy rego should come with a local information list of local clubs and trainers possibly even vets and groomers, if the businesses paid say $10 dollars or so a year and rego went up a $1 per dog that should cover the cost it need not be flashy or expensive.

What needs to happen most of all is to make the well behaved dog a valued and admired member of the community again.

Barbara Woodhouse use to say that a dog should be "a pleasure to all and a nuisance to no one" and that's how it should be.

The only party I got a positive response from over the dog issues was the Christan Democratic party....I actually heard some commonsense from them! I think we are doomed to have the puppy farm bill put through regardless however since the likelihood is who ever wins (Labour, liberal, greens) will back it. Our local Labour candidate even had the bad manners to tell me I can't have read the bill as the RSPCA wouldn't be policing it. I wonder if he's read it! I feel a bit lost too Erny.

It's a lot more than a bit shonky! It just shouldn't happen.

You would expect that individual foster carers would be exempted or included under the umbrella of the org for which they are fostering but apparently not.

Neil Mitchell is actually fairly reasonable but very persistent so it will be interesting to see what he does.

He did interview Joe Helper, and it would have been funny if it wasn't so concerning. He seems to think that it doesn't matter that the law is there because they don't enforce it so that makes it okay! Not that you can expect much, given all the nonsense they've passed over the last four years.

I do think we really need to push the whole purebreds are more than show dogs thing....I wonder if it would be too much trouble for Troy (or if he would even be interested given it's more work) to have a little pedigree pet of the month or something on the front page? A nice photo of the dog and a little blurb like they do in the Sunday Sun?

I think we really need to be pushing the whole thing about breed health schemes, the GSD clubs have been doing this since the early 80's and even on their own website it's hard to see any info on it. Shouldn't we be shouting this from the roof tops? Surely it's a good thing not something to hide, how many BYBers or puppy farmers do the amount of health testing ANKC breeders do, realistically?

In Victoria Steve I think anything is possible, Hugh Wirth would love it!

Personally I think they should say nick off and produce the evidence of decades of health testing schemes, and of breed clubs etc funding research and of breeder supplying dogs and DNA, blood etc for research free of charge. Realistically how many pets and their owners have benefited from all that time and money and effort? You don't see them wanting to do this with race horses or greyhounds do you?

The whole situation is becoming ever more farcical. There are a small number of people (relative to the whole) who really need their arses kicked but the majority don't need or deserve all this nonsense. It will probably happen anyway as the KC has less back bone than a jellyfish and they will either duck or roll over.

I have to say to as unpopular a view as it is that I don't think inbreeding is the devil it's made out to be either. The healthiest dog I ever owned was very intensely inbreed but by someone who knew what they were doing from generations of healthy stock. I don't actually see that many breeders using inbreeding anymore anyway and out crossing can only go so far too.

That's is very interesting asal, thanks for posting it. I note too that it comes from exactly the right place, someone who knows and has experience and has worked with both the RSPCA and the force. There is a problem and it is a very serious one because it involves the basic rights of every person in the country.

Ashanali that's the plan. Dog people will no doubt get covered but what about the average pet person or even someone who doesn't own dogs anymore? So that's what I'm looking at in my circle of Lion's club contacts etc as they're people who are less likely to be exposed to it.

Thanks Steve. I'll print and get cracking.

Steve just wondering before I print was it the Vic one that you needed to change to number each signature?

I am going to try not sure how much use I will be but even a 100 extra would help right?

Steve this is the big one and you know what I don't think there is an answer. The powers that be will have their way, the kennel clubs are too frightened of being seen as not being PC to fight back and we are all being dragged down together. Breeders, showies, triallers, pet owners a like it's just that right now no one can see it.

I think more noise needs to be made about how much breeders and breed clubs have done for research into canine health, that the hip/elbow etc schemes need to be promoted more. Think how long those have been going yet most people don't even know they exist! The kennel clubs need to stop hiding the good stuff under a bushel for fear of being attacked but I really can't see it changing fast enough to save us.

You're doing a fantastic job Steve, thank you so much.

All the points mentioned are already law, it's just in most cases they aren't policed. My local council won't even provide bins! Oh wait they do but they're locked up in a roofed cage so no one can use them, then they scream blue murder about all the rubbish!

Basic things like providing bins would be a start. Free or discounted education, puppy socialisation would be nice too. I've approached our council a few times saying dogs with obedience titles should be given a secondary discount on registration. They bleat and moan about people with untrained dogs but you only have one discount level that applies if the dog is chipped (which is compulsory anyway), desexed, ANKC registered and owned by a financial Vic dogs member or obedience trained. It's actually demovitating. Why bother with training, why bother trying to raise the bar if there's no incentive too? Now I know that's not exactly a level playing field type of suggestion but it would actually show the public (especially if it was advertised) that a well trained, well mannered dog is valued. At the moment they just aren't.

A lot of the problems boil down to lack of education, even just a list of obedience clubs included in with the tag for all new registrations would be a start. There needs to be more, councils need to encourage and reward people for doing a good job. If they did the ones who aren't doing so well might see it as something positive to aim for. At the moment the average dog owner thinks people who train their dogs are nuts. You're never going to get the hard core few who just don't care to change but the large number who love their dogs and mean well but have no idea would certainly take notice.

Just a hammer throw?

Tomahawks are much more fun! :D

I think so too simply because other wise we aren't seeing the true picture.

How's your spanner going?

It's not the length of the coat that dictates the amount of care it needs so much as the type of coat it has. I have Collies (roughs that is), and like Aussies and Borders they're quite easy care really. Dirt and muck just brush out, and they don't need a huge amount of grooming provided it's done properly. There in lies the rub though as a lot of people tend to brush their dogs thinking they're doing the right thing without actually penetrating the coat down to the skin, and then of course if it's a double coat the under coat will felt together.

Non shedding types of coat are another kettle of fish all together as are the long silky coats you see on Maltese. But the real fun comes when you get a dog who has a combination of coat types.

Andisa that poor dog! She must have been so relieved to be free of all that.

Whitka Dogs Vic have a library of dog books and they have a big collection of obedience books. I'm not sure where you are but if you're a member you can use the library (you have to be a member to trial anyway). I know you can send the books back by post too as I've had to do that before.

It was due to rationing. There was a shortage of a lot of things in the UK and Europe at the time it happened here too but to a far lesser extent. Things like milk, butter, meat, clothing etc. There's a book about it I read years ago, I can't think what it was now but it was very interesting and enlightening. You'll find that a lot of European breeds have a genetic bottle neck around the time of the second world war as due to the war and the associated rationing a lot of breeders simply didn't have enough food for the dogs or staff to continue to breed.

:rolleyes: Thanks Steve, it's nice to know you're out there doing your best. Sometimes it feels like your talking to yourself for all the good it does. Hugh Wirths gloating all over the media doesn't help either.

Lot's of good ideas here but I really feel like we might be running out of time. The letter I had from our labour candidate here in Melbourne said that he supported the puppy farm bill and that his party would ensure it was passed too. I'm just wondering if in Victoria at least there's anything we can do to a least slow the rot because as you say it's gone to far but it seems as if we're on an express train now.

If we want to fix the problems we are seeing then we all need to take a deep breath and acknowledge that we all love dogs and we all want the best for them. Our views of what is best may be different, but that's okay so long as we work together. The root of the problem is what we need to work on as that is the only way to improve the situation, for all dogs and for everyone even people who don't like dogs.

The reality is that all domesticated animals are part of our heritage and we should all be working to protect them and their place in our world. Where would we be without them really?

I would if it was a bloodline I really wanted, but the majority wouldn't. Personally I think most people would find a month excessive but that's because they are accustomed to instant gratification.

I certainly don't know what the answer is.. Steve how's the melting pot going? Anything that looks promising cropping up.

As for the RSPCA? Anyone who is in charge of policing the law, any law should come under an ombudsman at the very least.

Laws need to be changed so that people can follow the latest vet and scientific protocols without breaking the law, and best practise should not be legislated against as it currently is.

It won't stop dogs being bred or looked after in less than good conditions but if people know more they're more likely to make the right decisions up front. So less dogs get dumped and there for the demand for more puppies reduces. The reality is the only way to stop all forms of cruelty deliberate or caused by ignorance is to ban animals full stop. Most people don't want that, I certainly don't. Restricting people the way we are currently certainly hasn't helped has it? So how will more of the same work?

Long term education and reward is far more likely to work. While keeping most (not all some of the laws we have now are so ridiculous that they really do need modifying) of our welfare laws. It would mean less work for the RSPCA too which means they could actually focus on neglect instead of putting their paws into everything. Which is causing half the problems because they haven't got the man power to deal with what they are meant to enforce as it is.

Educating the public and encouraging and rewarding (and publicising that) good owners is the only thing that will work in the long term.

If the bill Mr Brumby has promised the RSPCA is passed all that will happen is more puppies not less will be bred in puppy farms because the majority of good breeders will be too intimidated and afraid of loosing everything to continue. It will become too hard.

The root of the problem is lack of education. People buy puppies with no more than the most basic knowledge, sometimes not even that. They don't understand that gun dogs are working dogs, that herding dogs are mentally busy, that terriers are hunters. They don't understand about canine language, they don't understand that dogs need an education before they can be expected to behave in a particular way. They don't understand that Lassie was made not born and that that requires effort, learning, knowledge and persistence on their part. But most of all they don't understand that when they buy a pup they are buying responsibility. Even the most loving and well meaning owners are often completely lacking in knowledge.

Without education, it is easy to blame the dog. So the dog ends up at the pound and they buy another puppy and so the cycle continues. Dog savy people don't buy pups from pet shops, they look for a breeder or a rescue, who tend in turn to give them even more knowledge.

Breeders aren't really the problem. Puppy farms would die a natural death if people knew more, but there will always be some.

It is completely counter productive to keep tightening controls and punishing everyone for the acts of the few, however awful. The vast majority of dogs in this country are well looked after by people who do their best by them. To listen to the hype you'd think good dog owners where like gold dust.

The thing is we need domesticated animals. They connect us to the natural world, they teach us about love and they give us empathy for the world of wild animals that are ever lastingly at our mercy. Would people be so keen to save the tiger if it wasn't for the domestic cat? Or the Wolf if it wasn't for the dog?

The other thing with bringing in new laws is, that anything that restricts breeders will also negatively impact on rescue as well. You can not restrict one without restricting the other legally it just isn't possible and I am sure that no one wants to see all those little rescues shut their doors over all this too all that would do is increase the euthanasia rate.

Yep Steve I know exactly what you mean.

Oh for the days when animals where animals and people where people and we didn't expect more from the animals than we expected from ourselves!

I haven't read all of this thread, as I have a colossal headache. I'll come back later and read it through but to my mind only two things will stop the rot and I can't see either happening. That is education and putting the responsibility for pets (all pets) back on to the owners. People are very ignorant about animals now, for all sorts of reasons. That's why we have so many issues with dog attacks and the like, lack of education, knowledge and a sense of responsibility on the part of the owner and a lack of training on the part of the dog. If laws we have now were enforced and there was peer pressure to be responsible a lot of the issues we have now would be so minor as to be unimportant.

People scream about animals having rights but how can they? With rights come responsibilities and how can we expect an animal to behave in an appropriate way in our society by instinct? What we really mean is that if we as humans want animals then we have to show the responsibility to provide them with the care and education that we owe them and more than that we need to show them enough respect to aknowledge that they are animals not little people in fur coats. Rights is a loaded word and that's where a lot of the problems come from, we put the responsibility on to the animals by saying they have rights instead of saying owners have responsibilities.

Anyway Steve I'd love to know what you're up too and I'm sure everyone else has far more practical suggestions than me! :D