Vickie

That's a bit of a shocker, surely the judge could have helped out a bit, especially in Novice? Did he give a briefing? Our judges on the weekend were great, especially in pairs helping people with where to go next. I guess you'll know next time, but it seems a tough way to learn. I think Snooker is going to be my favourite game.

Sounds like you need to get some professional help. I wouldn't be trying to deal with something like this over the internet. It is way too important to get the right advice. If not you could do more harm than good & it's not worth the risks. Where are you located? Maybe someone here can recommend a good behaviouralist close to you.

There was a Golden in pairs this morning who was zooming exactly like the one in the clip . Her partner had to dart all over the place trying to run both parts. It was very funny to watch. Oh and I met Tia's litter brother last night too. He is very cute & was having the time of his life playing with all the other puppies.

No, obviously not. I would teach him the command when he is let out of the crate in the morning. Are you saying it might take him 2 hours to pee outside once he comes out of his crate in the morning? If he only pees when he goes in & not through the night, then he should need to go when he comes out, shouldn't he? In the meantime, does he have bedding in his crate? I would be putting him the smallest crate you have with no bedding for a few nights & see if he still pees in there. That way he has to lay in it & it is not soaked up by the bedding...and you know how much he is doing.

No, Trim & Puzzle, they are shaping up to be a great team. Both are reliable, so we can plan our course without worrying about who needs to do which obstacles, which is often the hard bit if there are weaknesses in training.

I would not reprimand him. I think there are better ways. Why not teach him to wee on command? It doesn't take long & is very useful throughout their life. Of my four, Noah & Shine wee on command, Zeus just wees whenever & wherever Noah does & Trim just when she needs to. Can you use one of your other dogs to get him going? I take all mine out every night before bed, or before I go out. I give them the command & we don't come inside till they are all done. Each one gets praised & allowed back in when they have been.

Yep, I always think the funniest is when the dogs live together & are not sure which handler they are meant to be running with, so they end up doing tandem courses. There were 2 little terriers this morning that were hilarious, each would do a few obstacles & then they'd run into the centre for playtime. You couldn't help but laugh as they were up on their hind legs having the time of their lives, while their owners frantically called them. We were very boring to watch, everything went completely to plan...but we won our class and managed to knock 20 seconds off the course time

We had an awesome night last night/this morning at the Dusk till Dawn trial. I have finally started entering Trim in some games and we're absolutely loving them. Each presents it's own set of strategies, challenges and opportunities for training. There were some absolutely hilarious moments watching others, especially in pairs. I am so glad I waited till I thought she was ready, we had 3 very smooth & controlled runs and even managed to score our first 51 in Snooker (and we did it at about 3am ). I am still a little sceptical about people entering games before they are ready as I think it can cause some big training issues, but once you are ready, it is just about as much fun as you can have on course and I am enjoying working on the new skills that are required to be successful. We have another Games trial in 3-4 weeks. I can't wait.

I actually know a dog called Tidy, so immediately thought you were talking about a dog :D Thanks! hopefully I can get something a little longer to put up than 9 secs this week.

She was around 18 months in the video & hadn't done much at that point. She's now 3 & we're just getting back into more regularly. Tidy? you mean Tia? I'll get some more this week & put it up.

Great video, Cash is doing well for a young pup, he's very obedient. I love watching the strong instinct in pups like this...it puts a lump in your throat.

I really like this exercise and Tex is doing a great job. Thanks for putting the videos up, it's great to see how other dogs work & the exercises you are doing. Keep them coming!

I don't think there is any question that you could damage her, both mentally and/or physically. I think you need to be aware that there are risk associated & it is up to you to weigh them up. Sheep know the difference between a puppy & a dog and I know they can take advantage of that. There are lots of things that you can risk...joints, injury through aggressive sheep, intimidation etc. The big question I guess is what is the hurry? Is she going to be a better sheepdog b/c you started early? Believe me, I know how tempting it is. My pup got loose at 14 weeks and looked awesome on sheep. Now she's 8 months I have just done one basic exposure. She looks confident, but I know she is not physically mature & don't think she is mentally mature either. I have nothing to lose by waiting & potentially something to gain. Sure, people start pups early all the time & it seems to work out, and there are others who started early to watch their dog become injured both physically & mentally who will never really recover. I think it's different. I didn't leash walk my pup to the park until recently. To me, that is a kind of forced exercise. Instead I drove her & let her run loose when we got there. I think herding for pups is the same. I'm not sure they really have a choice, nor do I think they move as freely as they would in play. JMO

I'm sorry you feel that way CTD. I hope you keep videoing for your own benefit. I have a number of Trim's first sessions on sheep & I thoroughly enjoy watching and learning from them. It is great to watch her (and my) progression. FWIW, I think it's important to make a distinction between criticism & opinion. I think everyone is entitled to an opinion, regardless of their experience level, so long as they are realistic about how qualified they are to give it and are prepared for that opinion to change as they learn. The truth is I started this thread b/c there were things I saw in your clip that raised red flags for me. That is not a criticism of you or your dog...it is really me trying to justify my own opinions from what I have experienced & learned so far. I think it is important to keep questioning everything. As you are about to find out, everyone has a different method of starting a pup & they will all be able to justify why their way is the best. To date, my only advice to you has been to go watch lots of dogs work & have a go with as many trained dogs as you can, before you do too much with Tia. I don't need to be an expert or have a lot of experience to give you this advice and I hope you consider it at some point. Good Luck & sorry if I am one of the people who has upset you. Vickie

That's great news...sounds like you had better get ready to become addicted . So, did you notice a difference with what she did in the paddock? Did the lady explain why she put her in a paddock rather than a yard? What things was she doing that had to be taught? How did you stop/catch her? Sorry for so many questions...I am just curious about people's different ideas...I guess that's why I started the thread :D . Oh, one more question...did you get video? Will we see it? (OK that's 2 questions)

She is 8 months. I am not planning on doing too much with her for a the next few months, just bits & pieces. I'd like her to mature a bit yet, both physically & mentally. I know what you mean about making less mistakes, that's exactly how I feel. Every night I say to myself, "she will be better b/c I am better". That's the plan anyway. I still have so much to achieve with Trim, so plenty of time.

My pup just started last weekend as well . It'll be interesting to swap observations & experiences. So far, so good for us. She is looking great, plenty of confidence and nice and calm. I'm very excited about her.

Thanks for your thoughts TMC, although as CTD says, that is not my dog . This is my dog: So you are saying that starting in a roundyard is OK, so long as it is done correctly and not for too long? Can you elaborate a bit more on your comments re the rake? I have never had much luck with a rake as my dog doesn't seem to "give" to it easily. What would you use a rake for?

We certainly have some in NSW, but not many. They are usually run by clubs, often for the benefit of those who are nearly ready to start trialling, but open to anyone who wants to do it. The other thing our club does is have a comp night once a month. It is pretty much run exactly like a trial & is a great opportunity to train with some adrenalin. Also judges training days are sometimes run, where they need competitors to practise on. Also doing demonstrations for your club can simulate a trial environment in many ways. Just some thoughts, I do as many of the above as I can. Are you a member of a club? If so, maybe ask them if they (or could they?)do any of the above.

I remember that run very clearly Maverick! I remember us walking together, discussing what we would do. Then I remember me stuffing it up, , and you & Mav doing that great run . Next time, I'll do it your way

Thanks MJK, you have raised many of the points I was thinking about and I think you're right, it depends on the size of the yard, the natural ability of the dog, the type of sheep & the experience of the handler. I have seen many dogs that you would be insane to let loose in a paddock with sheep & others who were completely in control in their very first experience on sheep in a paddock. I find that the handlers I aspire to & the dogs I admire most are those who have not done a lot of mechanical training and tend to be those who went into the paddock fairly early and let the dog really learn to read the sheep (as you have described). Since that is what I like/want, I guess that is what we'll be doing.

Thank you both. It is interesting to hear different opinions and experiences, especially since I will be starting a pup soon. I know there are people who do most of their initial training in a round yard & others who only use one if they really need to. We did start in a yard, but it wasn't round & was about double/triple the size of the roundyards I have seen. I did do a little in a small roundyard later, but it was more for teaching specific things rather than starting. To me it looks like it would be difficult to get a dog balancing in a small roundyard? So Wiz, are you saying you have sides on your dog on command before you move out of the roundyard?

I have some of the sighthound collars pictured above. I LOVE them! I don't have collar slipping problems but the I can see how they would help. I don't think I'd ever use a flat collar again after having the sighthound ones. I just think they are much more comfortable for the dogs. Mine tend to pull at agility & I encourage this, so I like/need a collar that is not going to damage their neck.

Well she's certainly interested CTD.

I'm interested to hear people's thoughts on round yards, as opposed to larger yards & paddocks. Which type of dogs they are useful for At what stage Problems you can fix in a round yard Things you can & things you cannot achieve in a round yard What type of dog should not be in a round yard Problems you can create in a round yard etc. thanks