Steve

The smutty fawn ones are smutty fawn - they have black ticks through their coat - the silvers have no black ticking. This is not a silver pug and this is not a silver pug This is a silver pug . And the UK kennel club breed standard - quote - http://www.the-kennel-club.org.uk/services/public/breed/standard.aspx?id=6164 Colour Silver,apricot, fawn or black. Each clearly defined, to make contrast complete betweencolour, The brindle argument is different as the brindle gene isn't one which is naturally occurring in the pug as its a dominant pattern gene. The blue and the silver are a result of dilute recessive and can and do occur without introducing new genes.So far here they haven't been commonly selected for here - some are now. .

If you type in dog mannequin on google you will find some for wholesale form overseas but they are also here on Ebay http://www.ebay.com.au/sch/items/_W0QQ_sopZ12?_nkw=dog%20mannequins&_fromfsb=0&_trksid=m270.l1313

Much of this has been produced by the system. There have been quite large exemptions given to people who have been members of Vicdogs for example where they are able to own 10 fertile dogs without needing a licence and there are reductions with registrations and exemptions with desexing - similar in NSW and Queensland - though NSW and Victoria are state wide Queensland are council by council. Some people don't want to be members of the ANKC for a variety of reasons. You have to remember that some people have had to move shires to be able to keep an entire dog because only those who have ANKC membership are able to keep their dogs entire in some shires. Up until now the ANKC has had a monopoly on this exemption process because they promised to police their members and ensure they were following regs, laws and by laws. Whether or not they can or do is open to discussion but that is the premise that their members are able to have the exemptions. In order for people to ever be able to have an equal chance at being able to breed dogs there has to eventually be other organisations which also have these exemptions. There are various reasons for this - some obvious some not so obvious but the point is that if ever someone who breeds non registered purebreds or crossbred dogs will ever have equity and the same rights to choose to breed their dogs as those who are ANKC members they have to belong to another org which will promise to police their members and provide them the same rights as those who choose to be ANKC members. We may feel that this is a good thing but there are more and more everyday who don't agree and it has to change. In order for that to happen - based on the criteria for acceptance as an org which will receive these benefits for their members .the organisation has to register their members and register the dogs their members breed. On the other side of it of course for decades we and welfare orgs have been promoting registered breeders and not qualifying who they are registered with - like it or not some registries have been around longer than the ANKC and there has always been other registries and other registered breeders who are not members of the ANKC. Some have been so far against the ANKC that if a dog has ever been on their registry it is disqualified from being able to be registered on theirs. They wont even allow dual registration. As the world becomes easier to communicate with and trade with there will be more and more dogs which are registered with registries the ANKC don't recognise too. Put all that together with new laws which have to have breeders registered as breeders at council, and register puppies and microchip as they are advertising and you get more and more registered breeders who are likely to become more abundant as our numbers slide. Of course you also have to factor in the reality that some people actually want to avoid ANKC registered breeders - which is why the breeder in question in the OP is able to sell more purebred pet puppies at 4 times the price of her ANKC registered competitors to a world wide market place. The ANKC have a formidable task on their hands to promote their dogs, and their breeders and one thing we need to be sure of is that if we are advising people of where we think it is best to source a puppy that we are specific about which registry we think someone needs to belong to or we may find we are advising them to shop at the exact opposite place to what we mean.

Steve we have different views of the effectiveness of councils and the RSPCA. You believe in that system as an avenue for change - I don't. And that's OK. As I said before, it's a personal decision and up to you. The thread was not intended as a debate on the legitimacy of this petition - I think people should decide that for themselves. I decided this was worthy of my support after researching it as Im entitled to do. And thought others might like to look at it and decide for themselves on the basis of their own research - or not. After all this is certainly not the first petition on DoL which people will have differing views about and probably won't be the last. And that's OK. Not necessarily true .I think the system is there and before I encourage anyone to sign a petition or decide to sign it myself I need better evidence that the system isnt working. Im more than happy to ad my name to it when ever if ever I can see some reason for believing what is being said. So far I cant .Im not saying it the problem doesn't exist or that the petition isnt required exist but perhaps you need to tell me why you think its needed because so far ithere isnt anything telling me its needed. Steve with respect a couple of points - i don't need to tell you anything as you can decide for yourself - and you appear to have decided this isn't satisfactory for you and that's fine. The research I did satisfied me and that's fine too. Secondly I have not encouraged anyone to blindly sign and I give people credit for having some sense to research these things before acting (cf I simply posted the petition). Your view seems to be either 'system' or 'petition' / social action whereas I dont see them as mutually exclusive - whether the system works or not in my view doesn't preclude social action. I'm happy with the research I did before signing the petition. You weren't happy with what is in front of you. So happy to disagree :) . I think perhaps you have misunderstood .I'm not having a go at you or your decision to sign a petition or the petition. Im saying if there is better evidence Id like to see it and hear it . Not just to you but to anyone. You tell me you have investigated and made up your mind this is a good thing and my experience with you tells me you are usually pretty even and logical so I believe you but I cant see what you have researched and found out and nor can anyone else . Im simply saying before I decide Id like to see more to tell me its justified. You're right no one has to tell me anything but Im not sure how anyone can be expected to support something based on what has been presented.

Steve we have different views of the effectiveness of councils and the RSPCA. You believe in that system as an avenue for change - I don't. And that's OK. As I said before, it's a personal decision and up to you. The thread was not intended as a debate on the legitimacy of this petition - I think people should decide that for themselves. I decided this was worthy of my support after researching it as Im entitled to do. And thought others might like to look at it and decide for themselves on the basis of their own research - or not. After all this is certainly not the first petition on DoL which people will have differing views about and probably won't be the last. And that's OK. Not necessarily true .I think the system is there and before I encourage anyone to sign a petition or decide to sign it myself I need better evidence that the system isnt working. Im more than happy to ad my name to it when ever if ever I can see some reason for believing what is being said. So far I cant .Im not saying it the problem doesn't exist or that the petition isnt required exist but perhaps you need to tell me why you think its needed because so far ithere isnt anything telling me its needed.

So how do they know the RSPCA is investigating before they get there? Thought they said they had handed it over to the council why cant the council get a complaint and shoot on over there ? Nup I need more evidence than this - whether or not they have an ABN doesn't interest me either.

Evidence? Why do you need a petition if its rotten- why arent the council doing what needs to be done if its so bad ? Surely if they have closed them down once before they can do it again without needing a petition - why not just a complaint?

bingo. they have alot of well known farmers in that organisation. They are all trying to legitimise themselves yes. in the area they are in most of them, as i've been saying for years, they have the support of the vets down there as well as the council. the vets welcome farmers as it is more business for them and the council get their cut out of the money too. pay a permit and then pay to register how many dogs they have as well, its big money. trying to go against big money and big industry is a losing battle. So what is the difference between what they are doing to legitimise themselves and what is done to legitimise any other group? Don t see the ANKC making their breeders do yearly vet audits or inspecting peple BEFORE they are made full members. There are some very large volume ANKC breeders and some sell their puppies to pet shops.

Very long - they were the first in with the AAPDB but used to be ANKC - they dont believe that is the motivation for their organisation and nor do many others. Just because you think it doesn't make it so. Just work out what you need to say so you are sending people to breeders you are trying to get them to avoid.

Depends how much info you have of what is behind them. If the only info you have is how many champs rather than where the itchy dogs are, what scores were there etc its not something Id do. But if I did know the lines pretty well and was confident there was a reasonable limited risk of something rotten turning up I would do it.

The MDBA has its own stud registry which is run under the same [almost ] criteria to the ANKC but we also allow those members who qualify and fit the criteria who are working on breeds in development to register their pedigrees on a foundation register. Breeds in development keep their own pedigrees and register them with their own parent club anyway so even if they don't use our foundation registry they are still registered pedigrees. Feels like forever that it has been promoted that people need to go to a registered breeder when they go to buy a puppy. ANKC members have always believed this meant solely them. It never has but no one has seemed to mind or notice that much until tougher regs mean that in some states people who breed dogs have to be registered with their council to do so and until a group which represents those who breed puppies solely for pets and not predictability decided they would try to regulate that sector of dog breeding in a similar way that the ANKC have. Lots of people including the RSPCA think this is a good thing as it means they are at least agreeing to a code of conduct and being regulated to comply with a code more than those who are not members. The MDBA has never used the term to describe our members - because when we say "go to an MDBA member" it may be a purebred breeder member or a purebred or all breeds rescue member,or professional member. It has never been them registering with us but rather joining us. Part of the promotional issue for the ANKC is that each state's CC has a different name and these days people shop for puppies and are exposed to promotional and media stuff which doesnt necessarily apply to their geography.So telling someone to go to a Dogs NSW registered breeder doesn't really help much if you don't live in or buy from NSW. You cant really tell them to go to an ANKC member and consider they dont need to take a better look because cross bred breeders can also be members of the ANKC , they don't have to test etc and many do sell puppies to pet shops. When we started one of the things we considered was how do we ensure that our stuff didn't allow cross bred breeders to be able to have membership and we were assured by every group we went to who said they were able to provide a registered pedigree. We had several members who were breeding dogs which were not recognised by the ANKC but who were breeding dogs which were registered with registries other than the ANKC. In other words all of our breeder members had to be duel members of our group and also the group who kept their pedigree registry. That is no longer the case and dual membership isn't any longer required to qualify for breeder membership. As far as someone saying their puppies are eligible for registration with the MDBA - because most of our members don't list their details on our website if you have any doubt that someone is advertising membership or registration with the MDBA you need to do what you have to do with other groups where people claim membership or registration and you are not sure either ring or email and we will confirm or not. I'm happy to answer questions privately but would prefer not to do any more here as I don't want to be perceived to be promoting the MDBA.

At least one requires more but when they say registered breeder its the breeder who is registered anyway and not necessarily the pup. You also see harder requirements than ANKC re health issues etc with some. Some registries have a much more difficult COE to comply with than the usual CCs - including the AAPDB .You seem to forget that ANKC breeders can also sell their puppies to pet shops. We simply need to qualify what registry we are talking about when we recommend a registered breeder or we may find we are sending them off to exactly the opposite to those which we intend to be recommending.

Im simply saying that I expect that things will change or are changing and "silver" may well become more abundant.

In order for our pets to be fed treats - try in order for us not to be bloody completely over run with them.

Wow 11 colours! The silver/grey is quite eye catching. I wonder how many of these colours are showable in countries other than Australia? All dogs of all colours are showable if you find the right org which allows them to be shown .There are many orgs worldwide who have shows that are not sanctioned by the primary registry in each country. Also in some which are sanctioned such as the USA silver is considered an allowable colour.

Steve, are there other pure breed registries in Australia? Or are you referring to the "self registry" of Designer Breeds and peoples affiliations with other groups that they may be 'registered" members with? I would also like to know this. I am guessing that these other types of registration are not recignised by the ANKC for showing, breeding and the like? That's correct but there are only 6 and a half thousand ANKC registered breeders Australia wide and their numbers are going down. If you want to promote only one lot of registered breeders you need to be specific about what you describe them as.

Steve, are there other pure breed registries in Australia? Or are you referring to the "self registry" of Designer Breeds and peoples affiliations with other groups that they may be 'registered" members with? There are several other purebred registries in Australia and one other all breeds registry whioch has harder criteria than the ANKC to register puppies there is also at least one other registry which registers breeders who are not breeding purebred dogs who don't want to register their pedigrees and crossbred breeders. That's not counting those who are registered as breeding establishments with their local councils.

This link should get you talking. http://www.pugcolorclub.com/3/miscellaneous10.htm

In Australia breeders do all they can not to breed silvers and not to own up to doing so if they do but in other countries silver in difference to fawn is a recognised different colour and able to be shown. They are about to become more abundant if my information is correct in Australia Sometimes the silver Pug is confused with a smutty fawn-color Pug, but there's a distinct color difference between the two and Im told the silver is easily identifiable if you see one. As work is undertaken to improve the health of the pug the colour will be less restricted here into the future than it has been for the past 100 years or so. It is thought by some to be the only original colour of all pugs and isnt caused by cross breeding.

Well we do have a youth award and a Junior award and a Contribution to canine life award and 3 rescue awards - what category do we need to add next year to cover this so you can do exactly this?

That particular breeder has been around a long time and is a registered breeder .Just not an ANKC registered breeder . They have recently completed the new kennel and why you will hear about them more. You had best get used to it . If you don't start qualifying who you are registered with then its no longer what it used to be - assumed it was ANKC. and like it or not some people think that ANKC registered is the lesser one. Times have changed and people can be registered and register their puppies including their pedigrees and give registered pedigrees with their puppies with organisations other than what has been traditionally seen as registered. No point in complaining about it - its here and now best to adjust our language or be promoting those we don't want to promote every time we recommend someone use a registered breeder .

O.K. I know it feels like its taken forever, but Erny's King size Dogz community quilt has now been completed and its the most beautiful awesome quilt ever! Each time I look at it I cry. A very kind lady donated her services to us to be sure it was done professionally and will last her forever. The squares that you guys so lovingly made and embroidered and chose for her have come together so beautifully it's hard to explain. The feeling is brings up and I know its going to blow her away. I know that she knows about this quilt but I don't want her to see it as we intend presenting it to her at the awards evening in Brisbane in March She hasn't fully recovered and needs a bit of dogz people therapy so I'm thinking it might be nice to put together a bit of a booklet or similar to hand to her as well to enable more people to feel they have contributed if they cant attend the awards etc. to go with her quilt . This quilt truly symbolises the very best of what has come from this community. If its at all possible for you to make it to Brisbane for the 24th of March its shaping up to be a great night and we would love to share it with you. Ill be back when I work out how the best way to gather pages for a booklet for her when I finish the nominations - any input or ideas gratefully accepted. Julie

Whew! Thanks. You had better come to the awards so I can shout you a drink

Thanks Marion - you had better do it so I dont muck it up You should be getting good it by now I keep getting you stuck with it. But its is much appreciated. How about if we give them a thread each this time so its not so hard to sort out at the end. Julie

I cant see why not as long as you pay the extra postage. Julie