Steve

Please run a logic checker. You've got a double negative above [nothing . . . made not one iota] that blunts, if not turns around your argument. But responding to what I think you meant, as opposed to what you said . . . How do you know? Positions, especially positions with a poor factual basis (or that defy the laws of physics), are often undermined by long sustained pressure. Immediate responses are often superficial. Think of the many people who, as youths, thought one way, and as mature adults, have changed their attitudes. KEEP UP THE PRESSURE!!!!! Maybe I'm a hopeless idealist, but I still believe in force of reason. Btw, what was the quality of the things people said? In particular, how strong was the element of denial? When you have a debate with two sides parading half truths, improvement is possible when both sides increase their quotient of truth. May be gradual. WTF. It's taken a long time for things to degenerate. It'll take a long time for them to improve. If I may be so vain as to use my response (posted on PDE blog) as an example . . . I think things like this need to be said, over and over and over again. No doubt others can say it better than I. I do believe the unbalanced stance of PDE can be turned. . . and the grotesque aspects of show-directed breeding can be reversed to put function before cosmetic form. I think moderation and balance are as important in argument as in dog breeding. Here's my entry to the PDE blog . . . which includes many, many interesting entries: Please put finger on the problem. The problem is showing as a basis for selection . . . NOT PEDIGREE DOGS. The pedigree provides a solid basis for selecting for health, temperament, and working ability. Problem is, it has been misused to select for extreme conformation, particularly in some breeds. I sympathize with much of PDE stuff. I just wish it didn't have the effect of turning dog lovers away from the good things in the pedigree world, making life harder for breeders who put health and temperament first, and encouraging the scum who produce DD cross breeds from dogs with no traceable health records and no tested temperament as a way to make money. JH has owned danes, Labbies, and now owns a flat coat. Wouldn't surprise me if she has experienced the sorrow of a sweet and beautiful, but unsound, dog (so common with danes). I'd guess she's as vulnerable to the marvels of a good working dog as I am, Correct - its not in breeding or anything else it is 100% about what we have selected for and that means we can fix it.

No, the problem in the reporting, is over-generalisation. And you've added another. 'Everyone thinks you are talking about someone else and not them.' To misquote Groucho Marx, 'Send out & get me an Everyone!' Mita you took that out of context and you have used it out of context. Sandgrubber said that she did not want to be judged by what some folks in the KC were doing, extremes for example and that she did not think she wanted to defend those breeders, she said it is not a case of all hanging together for her. My statement nor Sandgrubbers had nothing to do with PDE. This thread is about PDE and people are giving responses to it. From all angles. Including those who think there's substance in some of the reporting, & who don't support the 'wrongs' in the breeding. As with that KC example. My comment stands. The evidence is, that not one position tells the full truth. Yet the program under discussion, suggested otherwise. What was wanted by most discerning people in the world of purebred dog breeding, is a balanced view, admitting of the 'wrongs' but conscious of the many 'rights'. So who will decide what the truth is? Who is able to see "from all angles" ? Who are these discerning people? Who is able to see the wrongs and do something about it rather than think that when a comment is made its always about the other person or the other group? Those people who are primarily responsible for breeding purebred dogs which suffer poor quality of life are not admitting their mistakes - who ever they are- unless Ive missed something because Ive not noticed any group admitting fault . Unless of course you count the Kennel clubs making their token breed standard changes.

Except sometimes colours affect health. Merle x merle for example. Though strange that harlequin x harlequin can be on mains but not merle. The MDBA registry is not as hard on colour for main register in some breeds - white boxers for example can be on the main register - however they can only be bred with a plain boxer - which means 100% of puppies will be flashy. They cannot be bred to a white or flashy boxer therefore ensuring that no white boxers will come of the mating. Flashy to flashy which is how you get white boxers in the first place is not recommended but not prohibited.

Im so sorry bringing home your puppy has been so difficult for you. Taking a puppy away from everything it is comfortable with and its Mum and its litter to a completely different routine can be really full on and some puppies can be pretty stubborn about it all. Puppies dont do ANYTHING without reward and if it cries when you go out of the room and then you come back - just once - it will think maybe its made you come back by crying .If it cries and you come back twice - for the puppy - its a done deal. I see this a lot with people who have kids - puppy is outside and it cries at the door to come in . Kids feel sorry for it " ah poor thing isnt it cute - it wants to come in" and when it cries they open the door .Puppy is rewarded for behaviour that isnt going to be so cute any minute but its learned what to do to get what it wants. In your case you have reacted because you are concerned about the noise affecting the other people who live near you so without meaning to you have rewarded the pup for crying.You didnt mean to but thats what has happened. This is how poker machines were invented because they found that if a rat pushed a lever and got a pellet of food it would push the lever for ever until it got the next reward. So this is actually part of the way as a breeder I prepare my puppies to come home. Its one of the reasons I like to sell them before they are 4 weeks old so I know where the pup is going and what the family is going to do to manage the pup at 8 weeks. Where its going to sleep ,how much company its going to have, etc. So as much info that I can get about the puppy's new home enables me to set up some of the things the pup will be walking into when it arrives at its new house. In the last week before they go home my "training " is pretty intensive in preparing the pup for what is to come.Around here they can yell to their heart's content and no one hears them. So puppies crying at the door to come in - I shut the door and no matter what never allow anyone to open that door when a pup is crying to come in. I make the humans use the other exterior door if they want to come and go. When the puppies are quiet I open the door and let them in .They work out pretty quickly that unless they shut up Im not letting them in - but part of it is explaining what I do and why and what the new owner has to do when the puppy gets home too. I never use crates or crate training for my dogs but if the new owner intends to do that or if the puppy is going to be travelling in a crate I work at getting the pup used to that and knowing from day one if it yells it stays where it is. Where ever the new owner tells me the pup will be sleeping I set up a similar area for it to sleep in without its litter mates for the last week it is at my house. If its going to be living inside I get it used to coming and going via a lead so when it gets home its expecting to be led from the house outside to go to the toot - no point in carry it outside as it doesnt know how to get back there if it hasnt walked there - so it will take longer for it to sit at the door to let you know its time to go. My point is sometimes you dont see the reward the dog gets for its behaviour because you cant see how the pup is thinking but I promise you its about - if I act like this what do I get out of that. So you have to make it more rewarding for the pup to shut up until you come back than it is for it to yell about you going. Arm yourself with an empty coke can with pebbles in it and masking tape over the end and tiny little bits of something like devon. Then if it cries grooooooowl at it as its Mum would to let it know its not on and while you are doing that shake the can like mad near its ear then leave the room. Stamping your foot or banging pot lids together or just clappung your hands works too. Do this every time it yells. Then wait until you get even just a minute where it isnt yelling and come back and really love it and feed it a tiny piece of devon. If you take time out to concentrate on this for just a few hours it will make a huge difference for ever until needing to make a noise or treating it is extinguished. Just like the rat thing with the lever make it be quiet just a little longer each time and when you can see its starting to work begin to only give it a piece of devon every couple of times instead of every time and then stretch it out to sometimes. This way you are doing something about it when it is doing the wrong thing so its not going on forever to upset the neighbours and you are rewarding it when its good rather than when its not. Rather than concentrating on the puppy and what the pup is doing have a look at what you are doing or what you did and you will see why the pup thought thats what it was meant to do to make you do what it wanted you to do.

Maybe there dont want any help and would prefer to place the dog themselves and have contact with the new owner themselves. There are a million reasons as to why someone may choose not to go back to the breeder. I have one here now that I would do anything rather than see it returned to the breeder and another whose breeder clearly told me when I bought it that they werent interested if I didnt want it after the transaction was completed.

I dont want you to sew anything just squares so I can join em all together.

What ever is good for you

Sorry thats too hard for me Im O.K. with sewing straight lines and squares together but if you up the ante even a little bit Im gone. Shaggy quilts are really only that (straight lines and squares), but that's fine. I am a quilter myself, so what did you want as far as donations of fabric? I do have some here with dogs and I think I also have some with paws on if you like, or did you want particular colours? Anything is good.

doesnt matter if we get a lot Ill make it big - if not Ill make it small.

Paypal are pretty ruthless and wont be easily sucked in by anyone who didnt actually send it .Depending on how it was sent you have the ability to lodge a lost item if they do prove they posted but its still not received to try to find out where it is. For now Id wait for paypal.

Sounds like a nomination to me. Here

Sorry thats too hard for me Im O.K. with sewing straight lines and squares together but if you up the ante even a little bit Im gone.

Yep that would be great.

No dont hem them or anything just cut em 6 and half inches quares so I can sew them together.

Just ducking in for a quick up date. Judi has had her op and come through O.K. I spoke with her this morning and she was O.K. Had a really bad headache but definitely alive and kicking and everything seemed to be working.Obviously she has a way to go yet but she said to let everyone know how much all of your well wishes and knowing you were thinking of her made a difference. thanks guys. Julie.

She is in hospital for at least a week and has some heavy duty recovery time but I dont want to leave this here too long so she cant see it if she gets near a computer before I expect she will. It would be good if we could get it knocked over within a couple of weeks so we can send it to her. Some people are also sending care packages for her too - chocolates, beanies and sexy PJs etc which I will collect for another week or so and send on for her to have asap.

Dont go over board just one square each is good.

Thanks Rainy. Most of my materials are kiddy types. I think the jungle animals are cute though. I did briefly comsider cupcakes then decided against it. it doesnt matter what it is.Erny is great fun and will appreciate anything - she will know you have taken the time to prepare it and send it off and thats huge in itself. just remember to clearly give me your names - real and dogz names so I can map them and she will know who gave what.

Anything is good.It doesnt have to be whizz bang spectacular - it just needs to be from you so we can make Erny see we care for her. Just do what you can and what you are comfortable with and we will make it work.

Ill be ok thanks ;) Jeds queen size quilt contained 168, 6 1/2 inch squares. Wish we lived closer Rainy then I could make you a cuppa. If there is anything we can help with say so. We dont need to go as big as Jed's was but lets do it . Please send 6 and 1/2 inch squares to P.O. Box 31 , Ganmain,NSW 2702 Dont muck around we dont want to drag this out . Julie

What sized squares do we need ?

Rainy Im sorry I didnt know you were ill ! Is there anything you need ?

nope there is enough diversity still out there to not closely breed, i make it my business to have something different to others. I have a very old bloodline that is no longer here though, its about 30 years old. So if things continue as they have been - how long do you think it will be before your breed has a problem. How many dogs each year need to go into the gene pool in order to prevent problems?

For those of you who dont know Erny is in hospital today under going brain surgery to remove 4 tumors. While I have no doubt she wil come through without a problem I thought perhaps it would be nice if we could do a small community quilt for her similar to the way we did it for Jed. Any one up for it ? I will stitch it altogether though sewing isnt my best talent.

Actually now you mention it the numbers mucs have dropped even more than they show in the ANKC stats because back in 1986 it wasnt compulsory to register all pups - so when you see that GSD in 1986 was 13562 it had to have been much bigger - very scary when you see 2010 figures dropped to 3900 and thats when we have to register every puppy !