Steve

Limited register came in for NSW around 1996 - maybe a year or two either side. The whole contract thing has developed more slowly and much of that is due to changing social factors .Breeders have been pressured to breed less and local councils restrict numbers more anyway .The contract issues go hand in hand with the "Im only supposed to have a litter a year " because they are breeding so few they have to control what they want to breed with even though they cant live with it . 70% of only 4800 registered breeders Australia wide in 2010 only had one litter.

There are $33,000 members Australia wide of them only 4 and a half thousand are breeders that means there are about 1000 breeders in Victoria far cry from 20,000 isnt it? Numbers of breeders and dogs bred go way down every year. In your breed in 2010 throughout Austrlia only 1468 registered chi puppies [690 short haired - 778 long haired] were born of them approx 145 would have been selected for breeding and of them some would decide not to breed them and some would be eliminated due to health issues - high patella scores or conformation faults etc. So what? That leaves about 100 last year Australia wide which may be used for breeding? Given that 70 per cent of breeders only have one litter per year and the others contribute more to the gene pool many of these 100 which might be used for breeding would be closely related to each other. In 1986 there were 4037 chi's born australia wide and most of them could have been used for breeding. if you are really here and not going anywhere and if you really do care for the betterment of the breed you will breed more and allow more to go out for breeding.Breeding more might mean you will ned a DA - God help you.

No one needs to paint a negative picture the stats are there for all to see - 4800 registered breeders with the ANKC australia wide of them under 1000 would be in Victoria .Thats a massive drop and if its made much harder with more crap regs and codes more and more will walk away. That give large volume breeders a bigger slice of the market. Of course the gardener is going to bag all kennel club breeders and he thinks - along with stacks of others that by stopping us he is doing what is best for the dogs.We are a minority group much hated in several areas and seen to be cruel but part of the plan is to get us working against them while they work against us - and its working.

Completely agreed. I don't think I realised when we bought Halo how lucky we were to get a main registered bitch owned outright, but it's very obvious to me now. I like being able to choose what happens to my dog, and I know my OH would NEVER allow me to purchase a dog in co-ownership. I don't know if I'll breed yet, that's a long way away yet, but I am just so glad that someone took a chance on me. The only way purebred dogs will continue in the future is if someone takes a chance, and if I ever decide to breed I will take a chance on others that I think are worthy as well.

All Im asking is that breeders start to question what has become the norm and start thinking about what is best for the breeds over any other consideration. We are all going to have differing ideas on what we think is going to be best long term for the breeds but that is healthy. Its when we all start acting like clones and end up with such a radical drop in breeder numbers and registered purebred dog numbers which impedes our ability to stand up for ourselves at government level and we blindly follow on led by animal rights philosophies that it begins to surface as a real problem for the long term out look of what we do. Couple that with controlling and power games across the board ,chuck in a bit of pedigreed dogs exposed and bit of beating the hell out of each other because we dare to have a different goal or method and find out too late its all gone . I understand there are many things pulling this including the lack of our ability to own or house as many dogs as we would like to develop a good breeding program but take some time to think it through. This stuff with such one sided conditions and controls on people who want to buy our puppies is not respecting the people we feel are best suited to living with the puppies we breed. It impedes their rights and in all honesty it takes advantage of them.

i do see your point. if they get knocked back in one shire they go to the shire who has accepted more farms than any other shire in Victoria - they are making a squillon on dog reg fees and permits, i heard conflicting reports of some farms not approved while others have said they haven't knocked back any, i don't know what is the truth. another recently got raided again and the owner came out and said they are different to other farms yet undercover people have seen how the dogs are treated but this farm is inspected. workers on the farm have come out and said how the dogs are treated and its not pretty what the owners get up to behind closed doors. as i said before it really is up to the public to stop the supply by not buying a puppy farm dog or a petshop puppy. it constantly amazes me how they can sell all these pups from their farms and through other sources like shops and newspaper adverts, don't the buyers read up.it also amazes me how these days we have so much information at our finger tips re: the internet yet still people still buy from these sources really there is no dispute about the fact that puppies can have good homes but the focus is more on where those puppies have come from, supporting a petshop or buying online from a large farm fuels this industry. i always buy my supplies from a petshop that doesn't sell puppies or one that supports shelters dogs like petbarn in Melbourne here. Petstock is another one i support as they promote rescue groups as well. People buy puppies from mass produced farms and from pet shops because there isnt anywhere else to buy them. We are a dying race and dont go even a quarter of the way of breeding enough puppies to fill the demand.We are controlling and demanding of those who want our puppies. If you want a puppy and dont want to jump through breeder hoops and cant find one anywhere else you take the risk rather than not have a puppy at all.

Ill completely ruin her I guess

Ive never heard of it and it was one of the things I went looking for info on for this little girl. I questioned my vet who seemed to think it wasnt dwarfism as she is in perfect proportion.She was born about a quarter of the size of all the others too so its not something thats happened as she has developed.the vet seemed to think she would grow and turn out not that much smaller but its hard to see thats possible at the moment.Everything about her is smaller including her facial features and head. Dunno - there is nothing new in this breeding and Ive got pretty detailed info re ancestry going back 5 plus generations which includes siblings etc and Ive never seen it before. This is the second mating with these two dogs and 24 puppies with this one the only one being smaller. Because the Maremma gene pool is so small - We only started off with 15 dogs in Australia in the mid 19's and not many have come in since you would expect if it were a recessive issue that it would have shown way before now and I would expect more than one in 24 from parents who were carriers. To be honest when I saw how small she was born I never expected she would live and Ive not helped her in anyway and she is fit and strong and thriving. The vet asked me if I wanted her put to sleep but when she got a clean bill of health its just not in me to take her out because she doesnt fit the standard and is too small. If the vet had said it would affect her quality of life I wouldnt have hesitated but it appears she is in great health. She is certainly acting like any other Maremma.

Yep but if we sell them good breed quality that is a good worker and we allow them to use our champion dogs whcih are good at work then they wouldnt need to breed dogs which were good workers but not good specimens of the breed. If someone wants to breed one of my Maremmas and working ability is more important to them I sell them the best dog via the breed standard as well as one which is best for work - when they go to breed it then they have a good breed quality dog which is also a great worker and I help them find the best breed quality working dog for them to mate with. This has allowed me to have champion dogs in the paddocks working as well as looking the part and becoming champions and as long as the Maremma breeders are showing their working dogs we get the best of both worlds if they dont restrict where they are going too much. So far in this breed there isnt a great divide between how a registered bench Maremma and a registered working Maremma stack up but if we dont allow access to our working conformation champs to working dog breeders we will end up as many other working breeds have.

0

Do you honestly believe that it is just a beauty contest??? If that is all it is perceived to be then we may as well throw the bloody lot in now. No I dont honestly believe its JUST a beauty contest and thats not what I said or meant but the fact of the matter is that when you show a dog it is judged by what is able to be seen on the day and the winner is awarded based on the judges perception and interpretation of a breed standard. As you are aware its ONE part of what a breeder needs to take into account when choosing a breeding dog. I meant - If there are enough of these animals - who have been judged to look the part and their progeny is able to be utilised by others for breeding then in my opinion its not going to hurt the breeds if everyone who breeds them doesnt show themselves as much as the breeds are being hurt now. By allowing people who might want to breed have dogs which are a good representative of the breed from animals which have been judged in a conformation show to be close to the breed standard then all animals being bred have a better chance of being able to pass muster in how they look. The gene pools have been reduced, breeder numbers and dogs being bred have dropped radically, some breeds cant reproduce without human interference and if we continue as we have done in the last decade where will that leave us and our breeds? Controlling everything because its your bloodlines and wanting unfair conditions and power over everything you breed and manipulating what narrow goals a person can have when they want to breed their dog ? Surely we need to rethink this and look at the bigger picture. Its all well and good to say if the buyer doesnt like it they can go elsewhere but where is elsewhere when its been so stitched up in many breeds that no one who wont play the conditions game can get a good quality dog even if they dont want to breed ? The general public and media have percieved dog shows as beauty contests way before now and many of us have thrown it in and if PDE didnt state that perception loudly enough - not sure what will.

Rescues come to this conclusion by keeping stats on how many registered breeders who are contacted when one of their dogs turn up are interested in taking their dogs back over those who are not. Most are not. Some breeders take their dogs back if they get into trouble some dont - regardless of which group they belong to unless their code of conduct covers this [MDBA] Of course there are some things some breeders do which make them less likely to have one of their dogs turn up in rescue but you cannot make statements about one group as if the other never does the same thing because people seeing what you are saying can CLEARLY see and find evidence to show that one member of any group may be doing what you accuse the other of. If you are going to use these things as a demonstration as to why one person should not breed dogs then your argument is automatically cancelled out when this is seen. Puppy mills are breeding establishments run by people with little concern for the welfare of their puppies or their breeding dogs. Purely and simply they are criminals and should be reported and prosecuted - regardless of whether they breed cross bred or registered purebred dogs. People who are applying for DA'S are saying they will do what they do with regard to the welfare of the dogs. They will comply with laws and mandatory codes and know they will be watched and inspected. This is the goal isnt it? Apart from the obvious suffering to dogs these puppy mills cause, all dog breeders are tainted by their existence. Animal rights, and anti-breeding activists find kennels with filthy, squalid conditions, get the media interested, and use them for press releases, articles, and fund-raising campaigns against all dog breeders. These days even if someone applies they are beaten up and cheers go up when they dont get their application. Why on earth would anyone do that to themselves? Basically what we are saying to all breeders [registered and crossbred breeders] is - If you are going to own more than a couple of dogs you need to apply for a DA. then Stick your head out and apply and then you are exposed and we will do all we can to tell the world you are an animal abuser and do all we can to prevent you being able to breed dogs.So tell me does someone who wants to run a business in one shire and is knocked back simply never open that business or do they normally find somewhere else to operate ?. By carrying on like this each time someone applies all it does is make sure people stop applying.

She is almost 8 weeks old and smaller than an 8 week old Beagle Pup. So small we have had to build a special step for her to be able to get up onto the porch

i assure you it isn't "hyperbole" what ever that means, i assume it means emotional crap. we have lived in an area for over 25 years our family dealing with these people i talk off and have had first hand experience with a few and i know what their opinion is. so explain to me what the misinformation is then? and by whose standards is it misinfo. the article you refer to is just one opinion im going on having first hand experience with these kinds of people. you mean to say that if a farmer churns out 2000 pups a year and does not actively take back any pups bred that the puppy owner does not want anymore its physically impossible to track that many puppies in homes and make sure they stay in good homes, this somehow doesn't add to the numbers wanting homes in shelters? it is common sense. sure i agree with having a no kill shelter, fostering out animals until homes can be found i don't agree with killing healthy animals. alot more should be no kill and its proven to work. you only have to look at such sites as petrescue and see the dozens of dogs wanting homes to know that we have a big problem. im not going to get into the positives and negatives of a pedigree dog and what a registered breeder is, we all know what we are referring to im sure, how does inbreeding get into it. This thread is about how the public identifies puppy farms and how they feel about them, surely breeding over 2000 pups PER FARM and times that by 30 farms across the region, impacts on numbers trying to find homes. my point is we have enough dogs needing adoption in shelters and rescue without adding to it by breeding up puppies in mills. i made the comment on no one taking responsiblity and i've come to that conclusion through discussion with people who backyard breed and their feelings towardsthe puppies they produce. most have said they would not take any dogs back, the dogs are on their own. if all breeders took responsiblity for what they bred then this would significantly reduce numbers in shelters too. there really wasn't a problem going back 30 years ago i was there i saw what it was like, the good old days where a pedigree was worth more than a mutt, but since these large scale farms have come on the scene and the promotion of the dreaded designer dog, there is now a bigger problem than there ever was adn there are many theories of how to deal with it and what we need to do as a society. what gets my dander up is reg breeders who do the right thing get coupled in with the profit makers and are accused they are contributing the ever growing problem. When ever you can show me that all registered breeders take their own back Il say you may have a point.The reality is that most registered breeders dont take their own back and that is a fact backed up by any rescue group you want to speak with.

No you miss the point . Im saying we want them to be out in the open. Apply for DA's make sure their facilities are all in keeping with the codes and where we have to go to find them and inspect them. If you have a someone who is keeping an eye on people who register dogs which are not desexed in that shire then people will simply not register their dogs inthat shire if they are not desexed. .If you go after them and try to ping them when they advertise to sell their puppies they will sell their puppies via the net or via an agent. Ifthey are advertising puppies and people are visiting their property to buy isnt that preferrable than chasing them underground because they are terrorised and harrassed when they try to do it openly. I am reminding you that in some circles people believe that breeding purebred dogs for the show ring even if you only breed one litter is every bit as cruel and as big a welfare issue as anything else. Give merit where its due - they have applied for a DA and been up front about what they will do and that is what we are aiming for because we already know we cant stop them unless we know where they are and we are able to watch them. The reality is that some large scale breeders are doing a pretty good job and have facilities all of us should be envious of and everyone who is not biased toward purebred registered breeders can see that .

I sent a main registered Maremma to Hawaii last ltter to be used on a goat farm but also used for breeding. Maremmas are not recognised by the AKC.

just want to address this comment, an animal inspection officer that i know off, actually checks newspaper adverts for litters advertised then poses as a buyer to inspect these farmers under the radar. and if they reg their dog as not desexed then they are monitored. there are alot of people apparently in the gippsland area that are "under the radar" anyway not going to be able to stop them, what we want to see is these large farms (one in gippsland is the biggest in victoria and this farm that had its application refused by the council was going to top that) closed down for good we have no need in society for large farms like this at all whether they are registered and regularly inspected or not. period. thats what we'd like to see happen. regularly inspected as they so call it is not working at all. When was the last time you were inspected? It amazes me that you dont want to be judged based on what one VCA breeder did but its O.K. to judge anyone who wants a permit to breed dogs the same as you do another who you say gets it wrong. They are doing what they are supposed to do and applying to use their own land the way they want to by complying with council regs. They intend to be out in the open and work within mandatory codes.If it doesnt fit the criteria they get knocked back but in the mean time we beat em up for even asking. Then go nah nah nah nah nah when they have to fix something. If you dont want them to use registered breeders who get pinged against you then you had better stop using anone who gets it wrong against them. Because they are going to get you on it every single time.

Yep and sometimes different goals are good too. Doesnt matter what you are breeding toward as long as you dont compromise on what else you need to cover. When someone cant access a good dog to breed with they have no choice but to compromise if they still want to continue. Who is responsible for that the person who compromises or the people who gave them no choice? Alright to say if you dont like it move on but in some breeds moving on isnt an option if you still want to try and get it right. What does it matter if everyone who breeds doesnt show as long as enough show to ensure there are animals available for breeding which pass the beauty contest?

Well in the main I agree however, I think sometimes the worst thing a new person can have is guidance from an experienced breeder or shower. All things are not equal and lets be honest - someone has mucked it up a bit havent they?

Well who is trying to pull what wool? that photo has nothing whatever to do with that application and in fact is taken from a registered breeders property. the application has been knocked back because "The shire knocked back the application due to a lack of a waste management plan, failure to provide noise abatement plans and a potential negative impact on the area's ecology'" just as it would for any business - not because its breeding dogs - which heaven forbid may not be VCA registered! Once again beat em up for trying to get it right and then sook when everyone stops trying to get it right and does it under the radar.

Definitely. I have bred several champions which were never intended for the ring at the time of sale. One beautiful girl and later a male went to a pet home. The owner said she wanted to have a go in the ring so I changed the papers over and I bought two puppies from them when they became champions and she decided to breed them. Looks very nice on my pedigrees- my prefix titled on both Mum and Dad . Ive also been able to use dogs which went out with main papers for stud and purchased puppies from people who bred my puppies to champion dogs. No need for contracts or conditions - Its called staying in touch and respect.

I have enforced my contract in court. My pet puppies will be desexed. I wouldn't sell to a lot of show homes. While my aim is the betterment of the breed my main concern is the welfare of my puppies so I sell to the homes that have compatible views with me. And yes I have still been burnt by a fellow breeder using a puppy I sold them prior to health tested. Have learnt from that now, anything sold for breeding regardless of how long I have known the person goes out with endorsements requiring health testing prior to breeding or the puppies are not registered. In the end all we can do is our best and learn from our mistakes, unfortunately sometimes that is at the detriment of a puppy How have you enforced it in court? Contract law says you cant make someone promise to do something with their property after it is their property. In the end all we can do is work out that once that dog goes home we cant control what the owner does with it and registered breeders are just as capable if not MORE capable fo mucking it up as anyone.

My Maremmas are first and foremost working dogs .Im more interested in how they work and their health than I am on how they go in the show ring. Now and then someone takes one for the show ring and I havent had one yet which has gone into the ring which didnt do me proud not only in the ring but also in the paddock. If they can work all week and come out and do great in the ring on weekends Im a happy girl. I have someone who has bought a boy from this current litter who was pretty frustrated by the time he got to me because he wasnt able to buy a main registered pup which he could maybe breed one day. He is going to use it for an organic chicken farm and thinks he may want to breed in a couple of years and didnt want to close his optionsas he wanted to do it right if he does go that way. Definitely wont be showing .He is getting my litter pick and free membership to the MDBA and if he does decide to breed in a couple of years Ill be there to help him. He could have lied to me - told me he wanted a working dog and bred it anyway.

Yep and just because a dog is desexed and not used for breeding doesnt mean it doesnt live a life of misery anyway. This isnt about what is best for the breeds its about ego and control it has bought us to a point that unless we wake up we will have no one else to blame but ourselves for the demise of the purebred dog world as we know it because We have followed on behind animal rights and bought into it hook line and sinker

Im old enough and been breeding dogs long enough to remember what it was like before all of this control stuff started. There were healthier dogs, more breeders, more choices, bigger gene pools. If you wanted to breed dogs no one really cared if you were going to breed registered puppies or not or if you were going to show or not. If you said you might want to breed the breeder simply gave you a good dog that wouldn't be a genetic time bomb and which if you did breed it wouldnt do any harm to the breed. If you wanted to use a good champion stud dog as long as your bitch was on main register you were able to front up and get the dog mated. O.K. recent history has shown us that some breeders breed for money but they always have done. Think of some of the big kennels in years gone by which had up to 100 dogs. These breeders were seen to be the experts and highly respected because even though they made a living from what they did they put that back into breeding better dogs and being able to concentrate on it without needing to go out to work. If one of their dogs developed a problem they were taken out of the gene pool and they had enough dogs to work on ensuring the problem was wiped out in their kennel. People we knew when I was a kid owned a registered purebred bitch and every year they took her off to be mated by a champion dog .Every year she had a dozen puppies which were registered and sold and that bought the family a new lounge suit or a new car etc. Where was the harm? It was a good healthy bitch and they chose good healthy dogs to mate them with. Each was a good example of the breed and they bred them to make their money back for what they spent on them. Showing was never ever on the table - they trusted the breeder to sell them a good pup because they told her they wanted to breed and they didnt need a show ring to tell them it looked pretty good and its ancestors had done well in the ring. Microchipping puppies before they go home has been a law in NSW since 1998 and there are still registered breeders who dont chip - except since January THIS year the CC wont register them with out a chip number.Only took them 12 years This stuff about protecting bloodlines and ensuring their puppies arent used in puppy farms, doing things we are told to do regarding husbandry regardless of whether its good for the breed or the species is a recent development and we follow on like lambs to the slaughter.Whats worse we have allowed ourselves to be educated and legislated by people who have never bred or even owned a purebred breeding dog.