Steve

http://www.dolforums.com.au/index.php?showforum=68

O.K. Ive got Fleuri Sheridan Spikes Puppy Sparky Bisart Dobes Maltese Luna Carlins Mum any more?

It seems we have quite a few students and academics here working in related fields, and most of us would be happy to review the literature (to whatever extent we are able, it is a never-ending rabbit hole). In the process some of the gaps and deficiencies in the literature begin to reveal themselves, particularly if it spurs a bit of discussion. If you put some of your ideas out there it might be interesting to see what comes back. I'll defer to others for help with the rest of your questions, I'm just a lowly undergrad. If you want to do a quick literature review yourself, Google Scholar is a really handy search engine and you'll usually get abstracts which are useful. I just went and had a look at that - cant believe I hadnt been there before ! I love it! Ive got a list as long as your arm on things I need in the science arena but some things came to the surface a bit with the breed health surveys which we didnt really expect too. I get frustrated by what seems to be results that dont take us anywhere. Im reluctant to talk about examples out loud because I dont want anyone thinking that I think their work isnt worthwhile and Im probably missing a huge chunk of the picture but perhaps you guys need to go a bit slower and explain a bit what the results will mean for the dogs and us. We are told there is a study going on where CC pedigrees are being analysed to see the level of inbreeding - thats nice but regardless of whether the study shows we do it a lot or not much where does that take us and how does it help the dogs - all I can see it doing is either giving something to the ANKC to defend accusations with or giving those who are accusing them something to argue with. But if we dont know whether the in bred animals are healthier or not healthier than animals which are not in bred and in fact we have NO heath or genetic data on any name on the pedigrees which are being looked at how does this help us or the dogs? - Or do we simply say - O.K. they are inbreeding and we know inbreeding causes health issues so their dogs have ill health - or if it goes the other way we say they are not in breeding very much and we know animals who are not in bred are healthier so therefore their dogs dont have health issues. And if we came up with themoney how much input would we have?

The first point of call would be to go and talk to an expert in the field at the uniersities. They should be up on all the latest literature and if it's not their exact field they have access to literature databases they can search to find past research. It shouldn't be too hard to get in touch, you can usually find staff lists on university websites with lists of their research interests and their contact details. Just ring them up and say can I set up a meeting to discuss X Y or Z. I know it goes against the grain but a meeting with Paul M might be helpful and even if he isn't able to help he might be able to put you on to others that are. The point at which you say OK that is done and dusted changes for each senario so there's no hard and fast rule. If you have a well designed study with minimal flaws that addresses exactly your question you might be able to say fair enough move on, but if it was done in a different population or a different country or there were some major issues with the methodology the study may need repeating to be more relevant to your situation. It would be rare to read a study that didn't conclude with what future research needs to be done to take the next step in the knowledge so it's uncommon that things are just left at that becasue people think they have learnt all there is to know. That said they are often left at that because they run out of money or lose interst or the field moves on to the next buzz topic. Hope that makes sense. I would be happy to have a search of the databases for you to check for past research if you are interested in particular topics. Feel free to PM me if you prefer. It doesnt go against MY grain to have a chat with Paul but his area of expertise isnt what Im looking for. I actually left a message early last week to speak with Clare Wade - she did ring back but I was out of the office so Ill give it another go this week.

Thank you!

Thank you- but walk me through it. If I had some things which we would like to see looked at what is the protocol and how do we go about getting someone to talk to us? Money isnt an issue. At what point is it O.K. to say well there has already been a study on that and leave it at that ? How do we know if there have been any studies done which are tucked away where only uni students can see them?

No harm in seeing something that looks above average and admiring it maybe even wishing you could own it to walk down the street with now and then to strutt your stuff. Hope I never get too old to notice what a piece of art that fellow number 12 for St Kilda is! :rolleyes:

Yep it sounds like a nomination to me www.mdbaawards.net.au

Sorry to do this here - but greytmate I cant send you a message and I need to contact you - could you please email me [email protected] when you get a chance

I would not argue with any of that Steve. I don't think it is stupid at all. I actually said that the MDBA does and can do a lot for dogs. I fully support the MDBA's ideals. I was talking about what the name might suggest, and how some people I know have reacted to it. I know you will not change the name, and it would be easier for me if I just shut up and left you alone about it. But you asked "Why wouldnt it be a good thing for someone to be given a pat on the back for something they have done which contributed to doing good things for our dogs?" The answer is not because there is anything wrong with the MDBA or the idea of acknowledging excellence. I think the MDBA is excellent in what it is trying to do, and especially you Steve. My post was about how winning such an award might be perceived. Which is where politics sometimes can come into it for various reasons. Personally I was honoured to receive a nomination, and have nominated others too. Alright I hear you now. Point is though for corvus's benefit we have no control over who nominates or who is nominated . You cant nominate yourself. Nor do we have any say in who wins. If you were nominated it would be because someone saw something they wanted to make mention of to say thank you. In 4 years Ive had 2 who refused the nomination.One was a breeder who was awful and said she hated her puppy buyer and wouldnt have her name anywhere near theirs - the puppy buyer was shattered .The other was a rescue person who felt the politics would be a pain - the person who nominated her was also very disappointed and she missed out on all the free publicity for her rescue group that can go with being nominated. Even if a person doesnt want to accept the nomination for whatever reason the opportunity for putting focus on what the group does as a whole is wasted.

No worries we improvised. Seems though that the nice things she has said about us has created a bit of an epidemic and there is a large number of people in your area asking for help.

Be aware of the fact that when you come in and want to move them forward they resist be careful to assess what the peopel who have been doing what they do get out of it OTHER THAN helping the dogs and step carefully so you dont make them feel threatened.

We went after transport for her and organised for some extra help. Ive left a couple of messages for you Carrie and tried emailing too so went ahead without you. last tiem I spoke with the owners she still needed some basic household items.

Well greytmate Im stunned - there is not one person I have accepted a nomination for who hasnt done something wonderful for dogs.The stories I hear about what people do which most dont ever hear and without the awards would never have their stories told is mind blowing. When I think of the people who have been nominated and those who have won over the past 4 years AND look at the criteria for even nominating them for you or anyone to get to that is astounding. Actually Im sure Dr Alan Wilton who won the first year in science category who has done such remarkable work with genetics for dogs would laugh at the idea that he was seen to be doing anything for us rather than the dogs! Take another look at the people who have dedicated their lives to doing what they do and who cry and sob at me when I read their nominations because they are so overcome because they have been appreciated enough for someone to nominate them. One of the things we have attempted to do is put a focus on the good things people do for dogs in the hope that it will encourage those peopel to keep doing what they are being recognised for and encourage others to do more for their dogs. the science category was introduced this year in order to try to help put a focus on the stuff these students and scientists do which we rarely hear about - stupidly we thought people would appreciate that we were trying to help them in their quest for funding and lifting their profile to the general public and dog lovers. So you dont like the name - better get over it because its staying but to accuse us of saying we dont do anything to benefit dogs ??? Give me a break. corvus - the nominations are still open and if Deerlover has done some science which deserves her being made to feel that she has been noticed for what she did to help dogs then its very sad that the science fraternity is so miserable to begrudge that and that politics cant be kept out of it.

Hard to answer with such limited info. What is on the Agenda will depend on where the group is up to now. Ill just start talking like as if they have NOTHING in place and you can pick up where ever they are up to. Is it incorporated ? Does it have office bearers etc. If you go to the pacers website there is a whole heap on incorporation to get you started if not http://www.mdbapacers.org.au/attachments/0...corporation.pdf If they are not incorporated it is important that this is done asap because without that the group doesnt have a business entity and its messier to operate and if anyone mucks it up you are liable as individuals rather than the org. So before you move past go you need to set up and be sure the best business foundation is in place because without this the chances that it will go rotten is really high. Policies are the structural base and save lots and lots of stress and future disasters. While you need to keep the wording simple you also need to try to think of absolutely everything possible and write it into policy. the obvious ones are desexing ,vet care etc but less obvious ones usually knock you over just as easily.what will you do if a breeder turns up and demands one of their dogs back entire ? To give you an idea if you email me I will shoot you off a copy of our foster carers course which is no where near the rescue course but if you take a look at what we ask the foster carers to look at before they choose a rescue group it will help you to see what I mean. General advice is to create policies you can grow into - Where will the dogs come from - what protocols for accepting them,what happens after they come into your care, what will you expect from foster carers etc. paper work for surrender, accepting dogs, assessments rehoming and basic record keeping, confidentiality agreements safe work place issues,health and safety issues Knowing the laws and everything which will affect you in this way and ensuring that no one diviates no matter what from what is legal etc Then of course there is marketing, sponsorship, fundraising - who is responsible for what - office bearers and the role they need to play, insurances, what are people expected to do free of charge ? What will you spend your money on and how will you make your money? Ill go back to the first one again - you really really need to work first and foremost on the business side of things. Often when I tell people they need a business plan before they go anywhere they worry its too hard or a bit corny but if you work through it one by one its not so bad and it can mean the difference between success and failure. I also have a toolkit which we put together for people who decided they wanted to start a pacers group - one online but another which is much more intense if you would like to have a look at it. Julie

The plight of the dog breeder is not high on their list of priorities but they had best be aware that there are a hell of a lot of dog owners in their electorates and they are about to be educated about getting more vocal about qasi police forces. Numbers equal the only currency they think about - votes. Join the MDBA.

http://www.parliament.nsw.gov.au/Prod/parl...A2577220001A84E take a good look at the submission from steve coleman and leon mills.

You told me about this several months ago. To be honest, I didn't know what to make of it and still don't. I wasn't really sure what kind of people you were wanting to give recognition to and what it would mean to get it. I guess I'm not convinced it would be a good thing to be singled out in this context. Ill bite why wouldnt it be a good thing for someone to be given a pat on the back for something they have done which contributed to doing good things for our dogs?

So do you mind me asking why no one is interested in using the Dog owners Choice Awards to give you guys a bit of a pat on the back and a plug so more people get to see what you are doing - maybe generate a bit of interest for some sponsorship etc? www.mdbaawards.net.au Thats a good idea. I wasn't aware there was a science/research related category. Prehaps you could send a little blurb about it to all the vet faculty deans. I'm sure they would be happy to pass it on to their dog researchers. I did.

Well done Mike ! ;)

The fact that they list what the vaccination has to be and include in it Canine Cough as law in NSW is a wank - at least that one is only a recommendation in Victoria. The idea that a breeder has no choice but to have their dogs vaccinated but they can choose not to vaccinate their kids its the joke of the century. Trouble is its law - dont do it and you get caught you have to plead guilty. Spend your life studying canine immunity attend lectures and seminars with world reknowned canine immunologists who tell you not to do what they are telling you has to be done especially for breeding animals and whether you have a good case to defend your actions or not -you are still guilty because its the law. How the hell did it ever become law - how the hell do we allow it to remain the law without doing something about it? This affects the health and welfare of every one of our dogs. How the hell did we sit back and allow them to make it cruel to have a vet debark with NO SCIENCE to back up the accusation its cruel,but then listen as they push for desexing when there is science EVERYWHERE to back up that it caused long term health issues, watch them brag about changing a dog's appearance by putting in false testicles but sook about changing a dog's appearance by tail banding and watch as they keep a kitten alive thats is so badly burned it suffers for months in order to gain donations. You know what its about time we remembered that only dead fish swim with the stream. You cant ask us to be caring and want what is best for our dogs, tell us education is part of the answer and then sit back and allow piss - antz to tell us what we are educated on doesn't count and force us to do what we know is not in the dog's best interests and whats more we can prove it - and we will.

As far as I know the manufactureres havent changed their directions. Some vets are using a different protocol but not all.

So do you mind me asking why no one is interested in using the Dog owners Choice Awards to give you guys a bit of a pat on the back and a plug so more people get to see what you are doing - maybe generate a bit of interest for some sponsorship etc? www.mdbaawards.net.au

Victoria 3.2 Vaccination and health care of breeding animals The proprietor must ensure that in the twelve months prior to breeding, all dogs must be fully vaccinated against distemper, hepatitis and parvovirus. Vaccination against canine cough and checking for heartworm infection is recommended prior to mating. All cats must be fully vaccinated against feline infectious enteritis and feline respiratory disease in the twelve months prior to breeding. All breeding queens and stud toms must be tested negative for Feline Leukaemia Virus (Fe-LV) in two blood tests at least three months apart before being used for breeding. Fe-LV free breeding stock must not share accommodation with untested, partially tested or Fe-LV positive cats. NSW 8.2.1.6 Dogs must be vaccinated against distemper, hepatitis, parvovirus and canine cough in accordance with the manufacturer’s recommendations, unless with the written approval of a veterinary practitioner.

hey i figured it. they have to do something to make up for all the $$$$$$$$$$'s lost since its been made public u DONT have to vaccinate every single iddy biddy year. think of the hundreds of thousands lost yearly now there? You do in Victoria and NSW - no choice mandatory code. whats with the "snipping"? nancy gate didnt cut anything, she would use a small hemostat to clamp the dewclaw and flick the nail out with her finger nail? gone in a flik and no bleeding at all and the pups didnt even notice? although they were newborn. i saw her do hundreds and since i had quie a few she bred to look after when be became ill, there wasnt a single one grew back. me? too squeemish I think snipping would be outlawed too I meant vaccinations .In Vic and NSW you HAVE to vaccinate every year or have a note from your vet to get out of jail that its not in the dog's best interest. More money.