Steve

Im thinking getting a breeder up in lights when they send a puppy home to someone who has already got one of their dogs. Allow the owner to talk about how great the first dog was and how fantastic the breeder has been. Forget about promoting the breeds promote the people who are our pet buyers and let them just tell honest feedback of how happy they were to find a good breeder and great dog. That kind of thing. Because show breeders put so much work into getting a championship naturally they are proud of that and for them this is what they need to promote and tell pet buyers about but unless they want a show puppy or one to breed show puppies people who are wanting a puppy they dont care. Breeders need to be able to say they are breeding to a standard which is good enough to get them ribbons but more they need to say they are breeding great pets ,great working dogs etc. Yesterday I spoke to girl who wanted to take a Maremma baby as a pet and I took 1 hour and 53 minutes out to tell her about the breed and what she can expect from the breed as a pet. I told her of the need for good fencing and used the dog I placed as a pet which guards the whole street ,of the working dog owner who purchased the dog to guard chickens who got upset because when the chicken crossed the road the dog went with them. I spoke about why I have a double gate - to stop my pet Maremma from going out ahead of the car to clear the paddock. I spoke of how pepper goes out ahead of me when I hang the washing out and yells at the world in case there's a brown snake or something else between me and the clothes line. I explained about how I need to control my voice and my body language to stop them barking ,I told her of the pet family I sent one home to where every one was very happy in a highly built up area but when they moved to a house with a wire back fence with horses on the other side the dog drove everyone nuts and what we did together - pet owner and breeder to get the thing to shut up. I explained about how they work with sheep and kids and kittens adjusting their body language. I told her how they watched and learned the routines of the household and how they accept what is the norm - what she would have to do to ensure it was O.K. with strangers and what to expect when walking with it. I told her how much I loved them and why I think the species they are working with is bonded to them rather than them bonded to the animal because of how I feel about them. I spoke of how one of my girls which has been in the paddock with the sheep since she was 6 weeks old comes into my home to have her puppies and I cant see any difference with her and the one that lives in the house full time. I spoke of how they care for the beagles and gave instances of keeping them safe. I listened to her discription of her home and her lifestyle and advised her on where the issues may be and what she would need to do to live happily ever after with a Maremma as a pet. Then I laughed and said I was the worst person to speak to about the breed because Im biased and I love them,that I cant imagine life without them - but Id already told her the down side of the breed ,what would happen if she stuck it out in the back yard alone ,what would happen if she didnt allow it to sleep inside of an evening and how they bark to ward off predators with my stories and examples. I did mention the champions and how one of our goals was to breed dog which looked the part as well as being a healthy well tempermented animal the health issues of the breed and what we have done to try to prevent them - and I did say that in 17 years we have had only one report of a possible genetic issue and what we did to try to ensure we never saw it again.I told her what it would take to try to train them I told her when my next litter was due, that I dont take a waiting list until the last week of the pregnancy and advised her to speak with other breeders and to think hard on whether she thought living with an adult was going to be a good thing for her. I told her if she found a puppy else where what to look for and no matter where she bought her pup that she was welcome to came back to me for help or advice. I have no puppies , I didnt get her name and I just may have talked her out of getting the breed. I could hear her relaxing and really enjoying the experience of speaking with me and its that feeling we need to market. I think.

The we is always an issue. Lots of people have lots to say but for various reasons not that many actually know how or for a variety of reason dont get to enacting anything. I have views on who should have already and Im disappointed that the politics of the dog world havent improved. Everyone blames everyone else,some are too frightened to stick their heads up, some dont know when to shut up and trying to get everyone working toward one goal whats best for the dogs and our breeds into the future without blowing each other up is still a huge challenge. There is a whole lot more I could say but now is not the time or place. I dont believe there is any such thing as a problem without a solution - but first it needs an honest look at the problem breaking it down and actively looking for a solution.The solution changes and your ability to succeed is altered depending on the questions you ask. You can get bogged into the same old same old unless you take a different approach and view. An honest assessment of this problem is that we have been served a pretty good dose of bad press which has placed us in a more vulnerable position than we would have been without it. Because a major part of that bad press is about dogs who are CC registered and bred for the show ring the natural progression has been that those most affected by that would go into bat for the establishment and the dogs they register. They accept the breed standards, they have a code of conduct which pushes breeders toward breeding for the ring, they use their banner for dog shows, they register the litters, they have the numbers, they have the money and they have the reputation of being "experts" and the peek body in the dog world. As members the we was assumed to be us being organised and represented by the ANKC and various state Canine Associations. The we was assumed to be the very people who were being most critisised. Well here's a news flash - If WE - you and me are going to have a chance at counteracting the bad press its time for the people who are interested in having a go approached this with confidence that we have some great people breeding some fantastic dogs using science and resources to get each litter healthier and happier which are not suffering at our hands and which are making lots of families happy. So if we can agree that we are flogging a dead horse if we expect the CCs to do anything and start to brainstorm things WE anyone who wants to give the MDBA a hand to try to work toward some strategies for counteracting bad press we would appreciate the input. If you need a thread where you can lament the death of the purebred please start another thread because I dont have time or energy to play in a negative playground.

Whew - back to work then.

thats that then - everyone feeling better - Now can we go back to discussing possible solutions or does eveyone agree its all over for the purebred dog?

The RSPCA slao has the authority to use disgression when it comes to enforcing that legislation. They chose to go after a soft target and just about destroyed her in the process. So, if its alright with everyone here, i will beat up the RSPCA. O.K.

By now I was really hoping to find a candidate who's party wasnt giving a green light to more dog laws but I havent found one yet. If anyone does then we can push people to vote for them .In NSW the Nationals are looking like they may have a spot of common sense.

Well that begs the question - why arent the breeders out there for the breeders. How long do they have to wait before they work out that their CCs are not going to do it for them and do something ? Some breeders are good at breeding. Some breeders are bad at breeding but good at marketing. Who is waiting for who? Are they waiting for themselves? You have done something Steve, you have taken the first step that needed to be taken. You formed the MDBA. I feel its a bit pointless to be having a discussion about 'us' and 'them' and 'we' and 'they'. We need to define those people. And let's define a brand before we even think about approaching people to endorse it. Thank you I think we did the right thing too. Up until now Ive tried to stay a bit away from how to promote the dogs - simply because we set up to promote the breeders. We felt there were the state CCs and breeds clubs to promote and decide what was best for the breeds and we intended to stay out of that area. We havent promoted the show ring and we have concentrated more on our breeders getting health and temperament right before they consider the dog's potential as a show dog. personally I think people have to leave their egos at the door and discuss honestly what is best to stop dogs suffering because nothing else matters. It feels bad to consider that the right to breed dogs the way we want may be taken from us but if it truly does mean that less dogs will suffer because of it so be it. Im not convinced that some of the things being presented as things we as breeders need to do are in fact the best things for the dogs and that less and not more dogs will suffer if they are introduced. I think that some of the answer is sitting with our ability to show what breeders can and do cover now that they never did before.That we are eager to embrace the science and breeding protocol recommendations ,that we are prepared to open stud books if its a valid reason, that in breeding is used as a very effective tool by all species purebred breeders and a whole heap more. The reality is that the year 2010 should be one of excitement for breeders - we should be using the tools at our disposal and learning what we need to know to produce puppies which get healthier each generation. we should be able to wear our prefixes with pride and strutt our stuff to the pet buying public as if we are a designer brand rather than listen to this gloom and doom stuff and scare people away from having a go at the most rewarding pastime they could imagine. If any of you are ready to give up and not stand and state your case and participate even in a discussion which may take us somewhere in trying to do what is best for our breeds - Im not.

We need more members - members equal votes. Well then we need to make things more attractive to people who buy dogs on LR. They have a door slammed in their faces if they even show the remotest interest in becomming a breeder or wanting a dog to Show. Everone runs around in circles yelling BYB, or Puppy Miller at the first inquiry!! No wonder membership has dropped. Sorry I didnt mean CC members I meant MDBA members.

Well that begs the question - why arent the breeders out there for the breeders. How long do they have to wait before they work out that their CCs are not going to do it for them and do something ?

Well to be fair, if you are going to have breeding decisions mandated and controlled by "experts" then they will have to be accountable for what is produced. Can't have it both ways. Now to try to make more wishes come true. The first thing the experts will do when they take over the breeding of danes will be to reduce the size down to a non giant breed size, like a hunting type breed I would say. Next would be to fix the heart and cancer problems and you will know the answer to that better than I, but I do not think further screening would be seen as the way to tackle the problem. So your dane will not be much of a dane, but this should take care of some of the genetic and conformation problems you want addressed. I cant see it going that way - at least not in the near future and what happens over the next few months in the UK will be worth watching but I have no doubt that some breed standards will be reassessed and judged not to be best for the welfare of the dogs and some practices which breeders have used as tools to identify and eliminate problems will be outlawed.

no you have understood except the "crime" was not the debarking but the showing of a debarked dog I am amazed. Honestly I think that makes it even more absurd. If debarking is against the law in that state, or was done unlawfully in some way, then surely a fine would suffice. To the owner and maybe also to the vet who did it. But I don't see the point of seizing the dogs. And if showing the debarked dogs was against the rules of the Canine Council, how does that become a crime? Why would showing vs. not showing even be relevant from a legal/animal welfare standpoint? It is against state law - Prevention to Cruelty to Animals Act which is why the RSPCA were able to do what they did.

Not sure if its true or not but I was told yesterday 3 directors of Dogs NSW had dun a bunk plus Ms Davies. Last time I looked one was under the microscope by Asic too.

Both as bad as each other .

As soon as you say that because I don't breed dogs that I would think a certain way about your 'fight', you are dismissing my concerns. When I say guidelines, I am talking about standards or parameters that can be built into legislation. thats not true Im not dismissing your concerns Im saying there are somethings which we have cncerns about that YOU are dismissing If the question is "How do we counteract the bad press for purebred dogs?" then the answer is not to air your own concerns. The answer is to show that 'you' are doing all that is reasonably possible to breed healthy, good quality dogs. You need to differentiate 'your' brand of dogs from the dogs from all the breeders that do not have the dog's health as a priority. Being able to meet the standards of an independant and expert 'governing body' is one way of showing integrity and transparency, and that would be one good way to "counteract the bad press". O.K. Point taken - however if it means I have to say O.K. to new laws in order to show integrity and transparency and counteract the bad press this isnt something Im ready to agree to without trying to find alternatives. Im not concerned with these things for our members - Im confident that they would passs any test of integrity - its the breeds. Sure the breeders are under attack too but thats a whole different topic which is being addressed and will be adddressed in various other threads - for this one Im looking at how we can counteract the bad press for our dogs. While I most definitely agree that the two go hand in hand as all of the subjects are intermingled and we will have to bring them all together - is it possible to counteract the bad press our dogs have had ? If so how? Without talking about introducing new laws.

We have already been given a heads up that some will be made illegal to breed. Legislation is already in place in Victoria for this.They went softly because hardly anyone bred Scottish Fold cats but now its there and all they have to do is add breeds. [its illegal to breed Scottich fold cats in Victoria] 2 years jail.

A small Maremma, definately a small Maremma. Hey P withers lets you and I have a go at breeding some mini maremmas Id love one of them

Happy to have many DOL friends 'live' here.... fifi Me too.

As soon as you say that because I don't breed dogs that I would think a certain way about your 'fight', you are dismissing my concerns. When I say guidelines, I am talking about standards or parameters that can be built into legislation. thats not true Im not dismissing your concerns Im saying there are somethings which we have cncerns about that YOU are dismissing

You see as with anything that becomes mandatory or legislated people just wont do what they are being told they have to do. Some expert said we were not to breed our dogs on every heat season - even though canine reproductive specialists dont agree so when they register their litters they ring in some girls .You then use the sisters papers [ who doesnt exist] and register the pups in her name - same genetics because they would be sisters. The Canine Coucils know this and thats why their breeder accreditaion scheme - not compulsory demands chip numbers on the pedigree. That will stop them breeding every season - right? Nup. find a chip implanter or get the creentials yourself and dummy up the chip numbers too. Or hang on to a pu until its old enough to be chipped and bump it off. Some expert said we shouldnt in breed - no mother son brother sister etc matings - do you really think that will stop them? Dogs are horny - jump fences and have sex all the time - oops, or you just call the sire another dog you happen to have papers for . Only breed dogs with a low score - score your dogs and breed em anyway just dont use the papers for the dog that has the higher score but dont breed her she's butt ugly. Breeders buy puppies from BYB dogs and put their paper work on them, breeders sell rego papers for dead dogs or dogs that never existed. It degrades the integrity of the pedigree and in fact takes away the only reason I breed registered puppies. Guidelining it , regulating it or making it illegal doesnt mean any one is going to take a scrap of notice. All of this is already against the law because its fraud. But making it illegal to breed a brachy head would stitch the breed up pretty quick smart.

Its unlikey that anyone is going to ever be thrown in jail for breeding a dog with hip displasia this is a polygenic disorder - however it is most definitely possible that breeders could be thrown in jail in Victoria for breeding a dog affected by PRA. And I can understand why someone who doesnt breed purebred dogs would think that wanting to fight having a governing body setting guidelines - because if thats all they are - guidelines no one will follow them anyway if they dont want to. My concerns are who will determine who is an expert and independent person to particpate in this and when the guidlines turn into laws and not guidelines .So far we have seen people considered to be independent and expert set up mandatory codes which leave gaping holes in what is best for the species and every breeder knows that . I dont think the MDBA has ever dismissed community concerns. I'm happy to be corrected and I have seen some breeders who have not only dismissed community concerns but in my opinion aggrevated them. Im not worried about publicity for our members or our dogs because they all do what the experts would have them do and then some anyway. My concern is for the future of the breeds when people who are not breeders start telling breeders how to breed dogs.

Ive been active with purebred dogs about that long and I agree with you - the science we have to utilise , the access to information and resources and the outside push has definitely made us much more able to do it all better than we did where our biggest dilemma was getting them to live with no vaccinations etc. This is something we should be shouting about at every opportunity - instead of bleating on about how much money we put into research - no good if we dont say where that has taken us and what we do now to ensure our dogs are healthy. We certainly shouldn't be giving excuses publicly as to why we wont use the science and resources at our disposal.

Yes I agree with this

What has bought you to this shortstep I thought you would one of the last to chuck it in.

I think it's actually fueled by this idea that breeders are elitist snobs. I dont actually know any - every breeder I've dealt with has been great - but members of the public have this idea. Maybe work on that first, and that has to come from the breeders themselves. No need to police it. As for the state canine councils...I hate to say it but forget about them. They dont seem to give a rats about purebreed dogs in Australia. I actually dont know what they think about these days apart from registration fees. Very disappointing. almost 7 years ago I came into this forum and said if we were going to stand back and hand over the task to the state canine councils we didnt stand a chance and Im more convinced every single day that this is the case .Our only hope is to acknowledge this and go to work with out them.

vicdog members should resign in protest and join another state org instead while using interstate addresses. Since when do vets commit acts of cruelty ? Since when does a government dictate what an owner and their dog's helath care professional decide what is in the best interest of the animal ? Why are we sitting still for this crap? its not just Victoria - you have to jump though hoops in most states to get a dog's voice lowered . Why cant I make a the decision to have it done and ask my vet to do it - Its my dog - I have to live with it - its a qualified vet and a much much lesser operation than desexing and I dont have to have a council ranger visit to agree the dog is trying to escape or its weeing on the neighbours daisies through the fence to get it desexed do I ? Its stupid and I dont understand why we dont yell about it.