Steve

I believe its mainly nature. As a breeder if I get even a hint a dog wont be able to cope with life the way I expect it to I take it out of any suggestion it may be used for breeding. I breed Maremmas and Ive placed them in homes where the person they are bonding to has absolutely abused them and kicked hell out of them, bitten them,hit, kicked ,pushed shoved etc and never once not ever have they decided to have even a tiny go back. By the way these people were known to have this potential as they have autism and mental disorders.I watched a 14 year old boy try his heart out to hurt the dog for months - and he did - and the dog trained the kid who has now lived with the dog for 5 years.Now at 19 the kid is no longer violent toward the dog and when the kid looks like getting out of control the dog pacifies him by using its body language. That dog has never growled or snarled or shown any sign it may defend itself and thats what I breed for. The dogs are placed in with animals that kick hell out of them,butt them, stomp on them at 6 to 8 weeks and they are expected to put up with it and go and hide - act as if they are terrified and NEVER EVER have a go back until the animal they are locked up with sees them as no threat and accepts them as part of their herd or flock etc. and they do. I sold one to a small hobby farm and the owner rang to complain that the dog wont stay home.She told me that no matter what she does when the chooks go across the road to eat the dog goes with them.She said the dog was sneaky,couldnt be trusted , was jumping fences, going through fences ,wouldnt come when it was called even though she had been training it. Its a dud and she wants her money back if its not possible to train the dog to do as its told and stay inside the yard when the chooks go out. She says its too hard to keep the chooks in her own yard as they are free range. Why wont the dog do as its being trained to do - after all its the perfect dog when the chooks are at home? Because I made it that way. I believe you can treat em nice or rotten,you can train em and love em and give em all you've got but when you put them under pressure, or give them the right stimulus - nature cuts in. Now having said that - there have been some studies with really violent people and monkeys and they have found that when you get that squirt of natural instinct which can make you want to hit someone - or kill em that a chemical cuts in for most of us and counteracts it.Some of us can cope with these things more than others.Not all kids who grow up watching dad punch hell out of Mum or who have the crap beaten out of them grow up to be mass murderers.The studies show that when we are babies and we cry for a feed or comfort our parents usually our Mums pick us up and comfort us , clean us up and feed us etc. The stroking and gentleness etc stimulates us to produce seratonin and the studies seem to tell us that this is something our bodies have to learn to do.If we dont get that mother type experience our bodies are not as good at knowing how to produce the chemical if at all.Monkeys which haven't had this interaction with their Mum's are more prone to aggression than their siblings. The study they did on one prison in the states among prisoners showed that the one common denominator was probably lack of mother love when the babies were small - whether that be because the mother didn't have those maternal feelings or because the mother was taken away due to illness or death etc. Ive raised puppies with and without their Mums but Ive always been careful to copy what their Mums do and the pups are handled a lot and stroked and loved from brand new up by humans even if their Mum is with them so maybe that also impacts some on the outcome. It would be good to separate several litters and treat them differently from brand new up as they have done with monkeys but I'm not up for deliberately breeding dogs which will be unpredictable - if I were Id breed designer dogs and maybe make some money. :p

There is a difference between saying that people who are members of a certain group or people who have their dogs registered with some group get discounts or exemptions to stopping people who exercise freedom of choice and elect not to be members or not to register their dogs with that group from being able to have the same rights if they comply with other state and council laws. They can stop them breeding pit bulls but not dogs which are not ANKC - its still legal in this country to breed cross bred dogs and non registered purebred dogs. To introduce laws which do this - allow only one group of people certain rights and access to markets , ability to trade and produce - it would cause an anti competitive environment. Lets not forget QCCC members can sell their puppies to pet shops and we do sell puppies we dont keep. Time will tell. Queensland laws An activity to which the proposed local law applies, is of a commercial, (or potentially commercial), nature. A commercial activity is one that would normally involve a financial transaction and includes a notion of profit making or economic gain. Examples include activities relating to production/extraction, handling, transport/distribution, purchase, sale, storage and disposal of goods or services for a fee There is a market (or potential for a market) for the activity to which the proposed local law applies. A market includes all goods or services that are substitutable or otherwise exchangeable with each other, taking into account matters such as prices, characteristics and uses. Hence, markets involve competition, or the potential for competition, to occur. Criteria to be Applied in Identifying Anti-competitive Provisions (i) an outright prohibition in regard to any particular business activity; (ii) a statutory monopoly; (iii) licensing or registration requirements for persons or bodies wishing to engage in a particular business activity and which operate on the basis of either limiting the number of participants or limiting participation to those persons or bodies that meet defined standards, qualifications or training or to those who hold membership of a particular occupational or professional organisation; (iv) allocation of quantitative entitlements, quotas or franchises among participants engaging in a particular business activity; (v) requirements for prescribed quality or technical standards to be observed, or for specified equipment to be used, in regard to a particular business activity, other than those requirements that apply generally in regard to public/workplace health and safety; (vi) price control provisions, whether by way of setting, or prescribing a process for determining, the maximum/minimum prices or charges for a specified good or service or the maximum/minimum rates of commission, agency or fees for any good or service; (vii) restrictions on the conduct of a business relating to matters such as hours of operation, size of premises, provision of specified facilities, geographical area of operation, advertising or promotion, sector-specific operation (eg, retail vs wholesale), type of good or service allowed to be offered for sale, etc; (viii) the nomination of a particular person or body as the sole or preferred customer or supplier in regard to a particular business activity; (ix) measures that have the effect of conferring a benefit on a particular person or body engaged in a particular business activity relative to other parties engaged in the same activity, including prescribing technical specifications or standards that can only be met by a particular operator, prescribing different requirements for public sector vis a vis private sector operators or making financial assistance available (including the waiver of various State or local government charges or fees as well as direct assistance measures such as a grant or subsidy) if a business is carried on at a particular place or in a particular manner; (x) the allocation of licences or other authorities which either allow the holder access to natural resources (including water, minerals, forests and fisheries)7 or which create rights, or permit specified activities, denied to non-holders (for example, licences to dispose of waste material in a particular manner); (xi) preferential purchasing arrangements. 7 (vii) restrictions on the conduct of a business relating to matters such as hours of operation, size of premises, provision of specified facilities, geographical area of operation, advertising or promotion, sector-specific operation (eg, retail vs wholesale), type of good or service allowed to be offered for sale, etc; (viii) the nomination of a particular person or body as the sole or preferred customer or supplier in regard to a particular business activity; (ix) measures that have the effect of conferring a benefit on a particular person or body engaged in a particular business activity relative to other parties engaged in the same activity, including prescribing technical specifications or standards that can only be met by a particular operator, prescribing different requirements for public sector vis a vis private sector operators or making financial assistance available (including the waiver of various State or local government charges or fees as well as direct assistance measures such as a grant or subsidy) if a business is carried on at a particular place or in a particular manner; (x) the allocation of licences or other authorities which either allow the holder access to natural resources (including water, minerals, forests and fisheries)7 or which create rights, or permit specified activities, denied to non-holders (for example, licences to dispose of waste material in a particular manner); (xi) preferential purchasing arrangements. 7 http://pan.search.qld.gov.au/search/search...amp;profile=dip

Oh well then thats different - that lets in members of the AAPDB but how are they going to get past the bits about commercial breeding etc when thats a commercial breeders group? The wording will need to be amended from what was read out to me today.

40 is the number of Breeders that have ALREADY applied for a permit and have currently been approved for a breeders permit as you would have learnt if you were at the meeting. Let me say with the amount in the room for the 3 shires there would have been many many more then 40 Breeders at the meeting and not many of them would only have one dog. So are you saying that it is more important to supply puppies to families so people dont miss out then it is to breed for the standard of the dog. I am sure that most REGISTERED BREEDERS would agree that we breed to improve what we already have and then if the community is lucky they then have the chance to purchase a puppy. We all know that we don't just sell to our local council area families come from all over. I am sorry I don't agree with you comment but I have to wonder if your loyal to the pure bred dog??? or are you a person that breeds for the $$$ There are many people who breed dogs well who are not ANKC recognised. Mini Foxie breeders , breeds in development, working dog breeders etc. Do you really think that when this is all done and dusted that a council is going to be able to indefinitely give advantage to one resident over another especially when they are a group representing a vast minority based on whether or not they breed ANKC registered dogs? Do you really think that one person is going to be able to own and breed 8 dogs but their neighbour wont be able to own and breed 2 if they are not ANKC registered? Where is the equity? Where is the ability to trade? Do you really think that one shire is able to say that an activity which is deemed to be legal and a bone fide manner of earing a living in all other shires is not able to be undertaken in their shire? Do you remember that many people in high places happen to think that purebred dogs are less healthy and that we are guilty of cruelty by breeding them? There is much work to be done here before we start cheering and much will depend on definitions, wordings and where local planning laws cut in. I can tell you that in NSW we can own any amount of dogs we like but via state law a breeder is anyone who breeds one litter and even though we dont need even a permit to breed dogs or rescue dogs in this state according to the laws pertaining to dog legislation we do need permits to breed a dog or rescue one dog under local planning laws which pertain to running a business from home even though we see ourselves as a hobby. A council cant say one person can breed purebred sheep but his neighbour is not able to breed cross bred sheep and sooner or later what is being presented as happening is going to change.

Yes that is a common thing with dog breeders, they often only worry about their own small circle in the dog world. You know in the US right now the working breeders (several are PhDs in genetics at the Unis) have sided with other interested groups (just like here) and are assisting with trying to take out the kennel club breeders. There has never been any love lost between the two groups. In the US there great efforts also going on to get all the KC breeders registered with their shires so they know who they are. Oh well, you know what they say, united we stand and divided we fall. Well let me ask you this, since taking out byb and puppy mills was high on your interest list, can a 'BYB' get registerd to breed with their not Kennel club registered dogs? What exactly is the definition used for BYB and puppy mills in this shire? Just checking again, a breeder is defined as an ANKC registered breeder? I asked for the definition of a breeder - answer anyone who ever breeds a litter but only those who are registered with the ANKC fit the criteria to apply for a permit.

Thats nice. So I ask again are working sheepdogs or kelpies that are not registered in the kennel club allowed to be bred in this shire? MM say no, only kennel club dogs and breeders can breed in this shire, Do you agree and also say that only kennel club dogs and breeders can be bred legally in this shire? This is true for now - the definition of a breeder is someone who ever breeds a litter but the way they are wording it at the moment is that only ANKC breeders can apply for a permit and that each permit will be taken on its own merits and anyone seen to be breeding commercially will not be approved. Its not up on line but it was read out to me. There is a lot going on behind the scenes.

Fit for a King Ive no idea what your problem is - the residents we have spoken to have already spoken to Mark and we have recieved some of the replies from mark via email as well. There is no suggestion here that the MDBA could do a better job or that anyone should lose any deal that Mark has been able to negotiate for them.It certainly isnt about proving anything via the MDBA. Im not interested in getting into some sort of argument and trade personal snips with you or anyone my intent was give a heads up that dog laws were not the only thing that may impact and for people to be aware of that. Obviously thats bothered you in some way which I apologise for but I didnt realise you were the head cheer leader for a Mark fan club and would be so defensive of anything you saw as a negative comment about what he has been able to have exempted for DQ members. I wasnt trying to say we could do better for DQ members than Mark has - because I know we cant. Why would we? We are not DQ.

This is now under control - it appears that the dog wont ever be able to live with his owner due to the owners frailty and other factors. With the help of the Hawesbury pound people the dog is safe and will go to a new home - we are working out how we will be able to allow visits to the old owner and continued letters and photos etc when he is placed in a nursing home on his release so the contact with the dog isnt lost to him altogether. I would just like to say thank you to everyone who offered help with this guy via forums, phone, email and Private messages especially Nicole Burford from Hawesbury pound who handled all of the enquiries via the owner and the ranger who took the dog into the pound. Its very heart warming to know there are so many peopel out there who feel the empathy level they do and that there are so many prepared to put their hand up to help out. Thank you Julie

Yes it is obvious that its going to be different for people depending on where they live. If you are good to have 8 on 40 acres without kennels etc but someone else not far from you isnt O.K. to do that and have 6 on 160 acres in a different shire it hardly seems to be fair does it?

Then if you guys are going to better off that is great and I hope when the dust settles that's exactly what happens. We have had a couple of issues which have popped up in other shires due to planning laws which cut across dog laws. One member went to a meeting and was happy with what she had been told but now the laws have come in she has been placed in a spot where she is no longer able to carry on as she has been. She has been told she is to pay a 1500 DA fee to be able to breed dogs on her property which is 160 acres and zoned rural.She owns 6 ANKC registered dogs and in order to get this permit she has to have kennels constructed with whelping areas and quarantine pen.So when she went to the meeting and was told she would be able to get a permit for more dogs it turned out that she is but in order to do even continue what she was doing for over 10 years on that property without a problem that she has to have further requirements to comply with other codes. It appears that the permit places you in spot where you are considered to be operating a business. In another shire the permit is around $400 which no one had to pay before now and in order to have the permit issued you have to have your house inspected and it is then that the planning issues cut in regarding where and how they have to be housed - how far from neighbours etc. I guess in some cases some people have also been owning dogs and breeding a litter now and then without council approval and they have been able to own dogs which havent been registered with council and breed in areas where they shouldnt have been and they will now no longer be able to do that as easily. You may say well too bad they should have been complying with 2 dog limits etc and not breeding when they didnt have approvals to do that but there's a hell of a lot of hobby breeders who have been guilty of this including some who frequent this forum. In many shires there is a two dog limit on and if you want a permit to breed the by laws regarding breeding dogs are secondary to running a businesss from home laws and that is where the issues seem to be causing some of the problems people are encountering. 2 Breeders who we have spoken to with 3 and 4 dogs have had to change much of what they have been doing at a high cost to be able to breed a litter. What Im trying to say is that I dont think its possible to hold off council law changes in Queensland regarding dog breeding and it appears that shires will be slightly different from one place to another. The various meetings held prior to law changes are really just a PR exercise and Im aware that QC has been able to get some exemptions on keeping entire dogs for their members - Its unlikely that even if you went there and protested that anything would change because by the time it gets to a meeting its pretty much already decided.Half a dozen we have spoken to in Gold coast shire [registered breeders] already have worked out a couple of ways around it and no doubt breeders of DD dogs will be able to work out the ways to do what they want without paying a permit, having their homes inspected - or by paying the permit, having their homes inspected for one breeding dog when they actually own 6 etc. Registered breeders in these shires have been able to have 20 or so dogs without a permit in areas where they needed a permit if they had more than 2 and breed them and not worry too much about being spotted - those days are gone. They can still pop them in the car and drive them to a friends house while the inspection is on but there are too many ways now to pick them up at point of sale especially if you need to quote your permit number when you advertise them or sell them. Assuming of course that its policed. Time will tell. Some may say this is a good thing and the intent to stop puppy farmers - or at least to get more money out of puppy farmers is good but for many who have been small hobby breeders its become rather a pain in the neck and no longer worth it. Some puppy farmers who have had dogs seized have had permits already and some still operate even after they have been pinged. ANKC and Dogs NSW [and Qcc as far as I know- though Mark didnt get to the round table meeting- I assumed queensland CC would agree with ANKC ] were against licencing breeders.In fact the only breeders who were in favour of a this were the AAPDB - the commercial breeders group but it seems to me that the word permit is in reality exactly that anyway. If RSPCA get their wish and are able to police council regs for breeeding dogs as a well as POCTA laws in all states as they do in NSW at least if everyone who breeds dogs has to have a permit to breed and sell puppies its easier to find them if they need to.

Just by chance I do actually have personal involvement in that area but I also have professional interest in whats going on as well. My job is to talk to OUR members and my interest is in how the new laws are impacting on THEM.All of our breeder members in Queensland are registered breeders with DQ by the way. Any one who is going to go off like lambs to the slaughter and just give the nod to ANY new laws in the current climate under the advice that its going to give some exemptions to registered breeders without being astute enough to take a really really good look at how planning laws may cut in etc is foolhardy. I appreciate your input on what you think I should do and who you think I should speak with but unless you know already who I have spoken to and what I have done it doesnt seem to be a very good start point for that advice so thanks anyway but I dont agree with you.

Cheryl McCormick from RADAR Canine Rescue has been nominated for Master Rescue of the Year. I know first hand what a dedictaed lady this is and the energy and time she puts into getting it right for Riverina Dogs Well Done Cheryl! take a bow!

Do you think they will let the owner debark now?

Thasrite shoptillyadrop

Its been pointed out that I should have said he is a cattle dog - it looks like he's safe for now - We just have to check out some minor details.

This s is pretty much what they have introduced on the gold coast and registered breeders are chucking it in - Ive personally heard of 7 registered breeders who will no longer breed. Sounds good until you read the fine print and remember once you have that breeders permit other planning laws cut in so you don't just look at what they want for the dogs but what they want for a home business of breeding dogs. Be very careful and in case you are interested I would advise if you can vote against it do so. Some of the breeders who will keep going have also devised some ways to get around it - it will only mean those who are already out in the open pay more money.Don't be fooled into thinking that any exemptions afforded to registered breeders will count - they wont. Say no to new laws we already have enough.

http://www.dlg.nsw.gov.au/DLG/DLGHome/Docu...tion/CA_FAQ.pdf http://www.dlg.nsw.gov.au/dlg/dlghome/dlg_...A&index=301 The first one explains that council can introduce the by laws but they are not enforceable.

You get the same effect when you have one breeder who has tightly line bred for several generations and then goes out to another line with no common ancestors for many generations. Not much point in doing what they have done without using other levels of science. That is still a closed population and within a generation or two the heart problems will still be there.If they did what modern dog breeders do and test the dogs and profile the pedigrees before they bring in fresh blood the results over a longer period of time would have been much better for maintaining the species rather than one generation which is less likely to suffer a couple of known recessive genetic issues. Anyone can breed one generation but when you need to ensure the health and temperament most suited for survival of a breed or species there's a lot more to it than taking an animal from a differnt geography and crossing your fingers that only the clears will reproduce. The probable reason for the difference in behaviour is that cats in that area have been able to survive better by hiding out in trees rather than being more open targets for a shooter.So that type of temperament trait has been able to live long enough to reproduce while the others are bumped off by humans before they can get to that.

Ill just post an update on these two guys. Honey is a bit croook. We have had surgery done on her as she had infected gums when she came into our care and a lump on the back of her neck which Dallas noticed was giving her grief which turned out to be some sort of nasty abcess. Theantibiotics had shrunk it to some degree but it still needed removing and draining. Poor girl must have been in agony. Pacers pay for this out of the general fundraising account. So she has a few stitches and drainage tubes which come out tomorrow. The fact that she has been such a nice girl to be around even in this much pain is pretty spectacular. Her owner didnt know she was sick and had no clue that she would need this level of vet care. We had her booked into kennels as Dallas and her family are going away for the long week end but Dallas is a true Softy and has decided she doesn't think it's fair on her or the kennel's staff to leave her there so soon after her operation so she is going camping with Dallas! After the long week end and when Honey is all over her operation we will need to find a new foster carer for these two as Dallas has done her bit and needs to move them onto another carer so if anyone in this area is interested in looking after Honey and Billy for a few months until their owner comes home again please put your hand up for us. I cant speak highly enough of Dallas - she has handled all of the vet visits and the extra care she has had to give to Honey as if it was nothing. Foster Carers across the board dont get enough attention - and Im going to have a chat with the MDBA board about doing something about that - keep watching. Julie

This has only just come to our attention so there's no time to muck around if we are going to be able to help [as the dog is already on death row] and have the owner and dog re united when the owner is able to take him home again. We need a foster Carer for approx 6 months - all expenses will be paid by Pacers. Even if you can help for a short time until we find a more permanent carer this will help. My phone number is 0269276707 or email [email protected] Dear old Pluto was surrendered as his 78 year old owner is going into hospital for a hip replacement and will be unable to care for for at least 6 months and he has no family to help out. Pluto is a nice old boy who plodded happily on the lead and would slowly sit. He is rather overweight and is a bit stiff and creaky but his teeth are good for his age. He was happy to be handled. I think he has been looked after a little too well. He's a lovely old boy looking for a quiet life and a comfy bed.

The whole entire team at Haweksbury Animal Shelter have been nominated for best Canine Rescue What a stand out nomination and what an honour to say job well done! Hope to see you all in Melbourne!

Michelle Gurney ~*Shell*~ has been nominated for Master Responsible Pet Owner. Michelle was great to talk to and when I heard her story it certainly made me very proud to know she is an MDBA member. What a great role model - truly a responsible dog owner. Well done Michell take a bow and hope to see you in Melbourne on the 19th of March. This is one of the categories Troy presents as well!

Troy from dogzonline has been nominated a number of times for Excellence in Contribution and/or Leadership in Canine Affairs. As you know Troy has backed these awards every step of the way and dogzonline is the dog owners Choice Awards principal Sponsor. www.dogzonline.com.au has been nominated for Best Dog Realted Website of the Year as well. You rock Troy!

Lisa Bower from the pet Doctor in Woodville South Australia has been nominated for best vet Nurse of the year - Category sponsored by Pet Plan insurance www.petplan.com.au

Suzette Ryan - issis - who was a HELL of a nice lady to chat with has been nominated for her Fresh 4 paws product which is a fresh food alternative for dog owners in Best Dog product of the Year Category.