Steve

exactly and it aint going to get any better. the only people who are not tarred and feathered by someone have been either extremely lucky or no ones decided they dont like em yet. as for the cc's doing the "accredition" thing. i rang and asked why is this being done. to be told after the "pedigree dogs exposed" fallout and this being done in the uk and recommendations that an accreditation schem be implemented that the canine councils "have to be seen to be doing something" or if they do not show they are making an effort then the rspca and governement will legislate and take all rights away from the canine councils or words to that effect. I'm not going to pretend I have the best understanding of the ANKC, I've never had a lot to do with it but I am interested and I've been following teh drama that Pedigree Dogs Exposed caused and learning what I can for the last few years. But doesn't reacting like this make it look like they were ignoring problems before? I can see this all getting very messy with good dogs and good breeders stuck in the middle of it when they shouldn't be. Wouldn't it be easier if everyone had decent ethics and puppy farms just wern't an issue. Every now and then you see something that is truly stupid and this is one of them. Firstly there is nothing in the accredited breeder scheme which all of us didnt already expect a breeder was already doing because they are a member of their state CC . The things they have added are basics and legal - such as having to chip puppies etc. All this does is show that they are also admitting to having members who dont do these things and registering their puppies AND THEY KNOW IT. But the biggest deal is that from Pedigree dogs exposed came the Bateman report released in the UK to try to find ways of dealing with supposed poor health of purebred dogs. Bateman several recommendations and ONE recommendation which said to introduce an accredited breeder program BUT the UK system is completely different to ours and peopel breed purebred dogs over there without even having a membership. In fact inthe UK membership is deliberately kept under a certain figure. It was totally in appropriate for this country and our system but they are all racing in to do as they are told rather than standing their bloody ground and telling them we have it covered they went and told them most of us are no good! Some of the people who have signed up for it are shockers but then anyone could be and still fit the criteria. Its harder to get into the MDBA than to be an accredited registered breeder - what a bloody joke and Jed is right the fact that any state CC has played this game is a disgrace. Nothing but a poor attempt at PR and more money.

Um - you dont fight the law or try to have the law changed by breaking it. If you're guilty - you're guilty full stop and they were. They had their dog on the beach - GUILTY AS CHARGED. If it were that easy we would all be running around doing all manner of things we think shouldnt be in law.

RSPCA were very clear about the fact that one of their goals is to have every state giving them this power. They already have this in NSW and from what I can see with the push in Victoria and the fact that both sides of government in Victoria have promised tougher new laws I personally cant see any way you are going to dodge it. Some of what has been on the table made me think it was never going to happen - it seemed so far over the top I couldnt imagine it was possible in this country but when you see that already in some places in the country unions have the ability to prosecute and place the onus of proving their innocence on the accused rather than as we all assume the justice system works with the onus of proving guilt on the prosecution - especially when we all know the history of trade unions and the stories of standover and corruption it has left me far from confident. The idea of seizing animals and charging someone a huge bond or the animals being sold off or bumped off sounds way out there and very much against all I thought was the norm in a democracy but after the attendance at the round table and from what Im hearing since it doesnt look very good. Im so over hearing "it wont affect those who are already doing the right thing" and feeling powerless partly because the CCs are worried about being seen to be the bad guys and playing politics. The whole dog industry has been held to ransom in this country for way too long by red neck animal rights propoganda which has brain washed people who love dogs into believing their crap and its time we started saying so.

I was up until around 2 am addressing the packages. Still some to go but Im getting through them.No one can sit at the table or move around the house too well Shouldnt be any left to address after today - I hope. I think everyone is going to be very happy with them and in case I havent said loudly enough to everyone involved from the minute this became even a glimmer of an idea. Thank you. Its been a mammoth effort and we very much appreciate what you have all done. Julie

O.K. They are in my hand ! Perfect- bigger than I expected but I love them. Job well done and they will go out over the next few days. Thank you to everyone who helped on this Huge! Julie

hang on they havent been delivered to me yet. They are at the hardware store down town but I cant get them picked up until my truck driver arrives here to pick them up from there for me.

State Government but here http://www.vca.org.au/Content.asp?ID=287 Vicdogs tells you where to go to try to work out SOME planning laws too. I cant find anything from Vicdogs warning of environment and planning issues.

In some shires in Queensland Breeders have been invited to attend council meetings to discuss new council domestic animals laws. They tell them that as they are ANKC they will be O.K. and there is no restriction on how many they own - and there isnt from the animal dept but then they get whammed with planning laws. One breeder who has been breeding dogs on her property for over 10 years did what she was told and applied for the council permit to breed dogs - she was told she could simply continue on but needed the permit - no big deal at the meeeting. So she did. Then she gets hit with 1500 to apply for planning approval and has to have a whole pile of stuff such as quarantine areas and concrete floors etc to house the dogs which live in her home and sleep in her bedroom.Approx 15000 to comply and she lives on 160 acres. Her barns and such which are already on her property dont comply with planning laws for breeding dogs - one requirement in that area is to be able to breed dogs you have to house them 40 metres from your boundary fences ! She cant just go on as she did because now they know where she is and what she is doing on her property.

State Government but here http://www.vca.org.au/Content.asp?ID=287 Vicdogs tells you where to go to try to work out planning laws too.

Vicdogs members have exemptions which inthe main are about $$$$ less to register your dogs, no need for a domestic animal licence if you have 10 or less fertile dogs and you can also get exemptions if a council by law says mandatory desexing but you get NO exemption regarding council laws re environment and planning and never did. Most Vic dogs members who breed dogs would have been breeding those dogs without council planning permits and therefore in breach of the law. No matter where you live if you breed a puppy you need to apply for a planning permit.

Last week I specifically asked the questions and here is part of one of the answers I recieved from Victoria. Quote The Domestic Animals Act 1994 contains the definition of a Domestic Animal Business. In regard to breeding there are 2 parts. These are the short versions. If a person has less than 10 fertile female animals, the owner must be registered with “an applicable organisation”. For dogs it is Dogs Victoria (the old KCC). It is the only association recognised by the legislation. If the owner is not registered with Dogs Victoria and is selling pups, they are a Domestic Animal Business. If a person has 10 or more fertile female animals and is selling the pups they are a Domestic Animal Business. However, any person who wishes to breed dogs EVEN IF THEY ARE IN EITHER OF THE ABOVE CATEGORIES must first apply for a planning permit. The relevant planning authority will let the applicant know if a permit is required and what conditions, if any, are placed on the activity. I reiterate all people wanting to breed dogs must apply for a planning permit. End quote This bit is really important. Planning permits are different to a domestic animal business and this is a huge issue because to date people who owned less than 11 fertile bitches and who were Vicdogs thought they didnt need anything else. They did but its been council who have policed this and they were pretty laid back,didnt have powers to search and sieze and never bothered too much with making sure people complied unless there were complaints but if the RSPCA get the powers to do this every single Vicdogs member who breeds a litter will need to comply with what they were already supposedly complying with or face the same risk as any puppy farmer via the RSPCA. Any one who breeds a litter anywhere in Australia regardless of what exemptions they get via animal laws have to Apply to their local council for a planning permit. This then if nothing else lets everyone know who you are and that you are breeding dogs. Again this is different to a domestic animal licence and its a really big deal because it tells you how you have to house them and where - distances from dwellings and fences etc.

Yep and Vic dogs members think they will be exempt but no matter what the domestic animals laws says they will have them anyway via environment and planning. I will never vote for anyone who tells me they will give more power to a quasi police force with no process of accountability.

Nup not here.

http://www.abc.net.au/local/stories/2010/10/27/3049878.htm The Brumby Government has promised sweeping changes to animal welfare laws in Victoria. The Brumby Government has promised sweeping changes to animal welfare laws in Victoria. In their policy announcement, they have committed to a greater policing of animal de-sexing, a review of penalties for acts of cruelty and increased powers for the RSPCA. As with policy on alcohol and cigarettes, they would also enforce a minimum age of 18 for purchasing animals. Victorian head of the RSPCA, Dr Hugh Wirth says he is happy with the proposal. "Under the law as it is now, when it prepares animals for adoption, the RSPCA has to follow quite stringent requirements. That's not the same for pet shops and that's inequitable. What we've convinced the minister to do is make the code of practice related to pet shops identical to the code of practice for shelters and pounds. That will mean all animals sold will be de-sexed or have a prepaid voucher to ensure the animal gets de sexed, that it's micro chipped, properly vaccinated and a guarantee of a fortnight to three weeks if that pet doesn't work out or for some reason it has to be returned." Labor will provide the RSPCA with $4 million over four years to help fund their inspectorate work and after a series of controversial puppy farms were closed this year, the organisation and local councils will have more power to shut them down. Mr Wirth says he's confident that Labor will implement the policy if re-elected. "It's an absolute promise, it's a commitment, and we'll hold them to it. And we have absolutely no doubt they will do what they say." On the issue of granting licences for pet owners, Dr Wirth says while it hasn't been adopted by either party as policy, it's a work in progress. "Absolutely, that's one battle we haven't won yet, it's been RSPCA policy for at least forty years to my knowledge, we just haven't won that round with the politicians yet. We will win of course."

Lots of boarding kennels also breed and sell puppies. The requirements to be able to either breed or baord are pretty tough and it seems if the sign says boarding kennel you can be sure they are inspected regularly and they are compling with what they need to. Its not against the law for people to put a sign up to sell puppies and at least they are selling them from their property where people can see the parents and how they are looked after. Why did you report them to the RSPCA?

No nothing here yet.

Not here.

Only where the owners chose to (and some did) ... it is of course confidential like any Club Health Clinic I have ever attended. Yep and while its kept confidential it doesn't help any dogs.

hi Steve.... This is part of the dilema isn't it ?? .... your "everyday dog owner" is not going to have an MRI done if the dog is not symptomatic - it's a very expensive exercise here in Australia. In the recent report to the NSW CKCS Club (Feb 10) , Georgina Childs reported that of the 60 dogs scanned by her through the scannings days organised with the Club there were 50% that were "clear". Yes it is a dilema because even though you wouldnt expect ordinary dog owners to have scans done as a matter of course you would expect that if its as high as those stats suggest that sooner or later at least some would have to show symptoms and be diagnosed with it. That for me is even more reason to think that whilst scanning would be one tool to be used that it cant be the only one or over time it wont take us far. Were the dogs identified and the breeders made aware of the results so the info could be entered on pedigrees? I still think its going to take scanning, open registries and profiling.

Well time will tell but with every other delivery the carrier drops it off at the hardware store which is also the post office and we take our truck or trailer and pick it up from there using their fork lift. I know other people get their stuff delivered if they live even further away from the town than I do but Ive lived here for almost 6 years now and had a hell of a lot of things delivered some on and some off pallets and they have never bought them to my property even if I pay extra for them to do that. Ive argued over it and kicked and screamed but it makes no difference they drop it off in town and I get a call from the post office/ hardware store that I have parcels to pick up. Either way the truck is here for us to pick it up from town or we will be home for a delivery so there's no big deal and Ill let you know when they get here.

Im trying to gain that sort of info today. This is the grey that has been staying with madwoofter for around 14 weeks and there are no issues other than madwoofter has done her bit and done it very well and she needs a break.

double post

We have now had breed health surveys running for over a year. In the Cav breed over 400 cav owners have responded. We have a record of IP addresses so we can see how many different people have entered their details so we know its a fair bet that the data hasn't been affected much by breeders who wanted to make their breed look healthier than it was. Its possible - probable- that some breeders who have responded may have held back and told some fibs but around 60% of those who responded are owners and not breeders. They are just ordinary every day Aussie dog owners who have been O.K. about telling us about their dogs with MVD and joint and eye issues - so why wouldnt they also tell us about this if their dogs have been diagnosed with it? Surely if this was such a problem in the breed in dogs bred in this country we would expect to see at least a couple who showed up as being affected. There was but not in this breed. So either over 400 people who own cavs have told lies[unlikely] ,their dogs have had it but they didn't know [unlikely] or I'm assuming its not as big a deal here in this breed as what it is in England. When you place so much emphasis on MRI scans for the answer to eliminating it without knowing the mode of inheritance - considering carriers are not affected and show no symptoms but would be the most likely selected as breeding stock you would expect to see a lessening for a minute but in a generation or two it would be back with a vengence. Scanning isn't going to make a scrap of difference unless every single cav regardless of whether it goes out for breeding or pet is scanned for 10 generations or so and the scan results are placed on an open registry to enable breeders to profile the pedigrees to spot where it is in the family tree. Thats all assuming its only a straight out gene issue and that the condition isn't turned on or off by something else. And that this one condition is all they select against when they consider their estimated breeding values. Personally I think the chances of them coming up with a DNA test to identify it are remote and while you're breeding away from one thing chances are there will be another one or two which will show up anyway. Opening stud books isn't the answer either because other breeds of dogs and cross bred dogs get it too until they work out mode of inheritance. At least if its kept mainly within one gene pool [ breed] the breeders know what to look for and test for to try to breed it out. Given that the UK pedigree system is different to ours and bunch of other things to do with the culture and the system scanning may be a useful tool but it wont replace breeder knowledge and sharing of info in this country any more than hip scoring will and when you start to focus on the scanning or screening,and only selecting for or against one or two genetic issues traditionally breeders start to think thats all they need to do and all that does is make vets richer and eventually dogs still suffer.

Even if its not via Aust Post its still delivered to the post office for me to pick up no matter how big it is. The carriers wont deliver here. We are 4 kilometres from town. Julie

No news and no books. Mail here doesnt come in until after 5pm - after the Post Office has shut - so probably will be there first thing Monday for me to pick up I hope Julie