Steve

Yes! Why didnt I think of that - Hang on - Im going for a walk to see if the ones in the paddock with the sheep are doing the same thing.

You know Ive been documenting our hole digging. Some of my Maremmas live in the house and mooch around most of their lives on the front porch area - by choice. But their water bowls are out in the yard and not on the porch - the poor things have to walk about 30 metres when they want a drink. But now and then they go nuts digging holes up close to the porch - They are like man traps about as round as a dinner plate but pretty deep.We go long periods with no digging then it starts again. Since its been raining more often and we are not in drought any more the hole digging has become more active. Drives me mad BUT just because Ive got nothing better to do I have kept a diary on all sorts of stuff most sane people wouldn't consider. I thought it may be just because the ground is now softer and easier to dig because its not so dry. You know what I reckon ? I think they tell me what the weather is going to be like better than any weather man. You cant know what your dog is thinking but I reckon they are digging holes close to the porch just before it rains so they dont have to go as far to get a drink. These holes actually act like water bowls if I dont get to fill them in quickly enough before it rains - and so far it always rains just after they dig these holes! This morning I went out and there's a new hole about 2 feet from the porch just out away from the eaves where it will fill up nicely with water when it rains and the dog can stay under the shelter while it drinks.I documented that last time they dug a hole they did exactly that. Weather man says we will get rain today. So now Im on a mission - Im going to move that water bowl up onto the porch so the poor things dont have to get wet when they want a drink because I reckon that will stop em from digging - or at least stopping them from digging these holes close to the house. Are they really that smart?

I might be narrow minded but I am not naive enough to think that this has not and is not already happening...good grief!! Firstly I never called you narrow minded. Secondly at what point did I say I don't already think this is happening... that was my reason for stating ethical registered breeders in my posts. I agree with you that there are already dodgy breeders, I'm just saying that the people that are dodgy and not registered will just become registered. Cool ☻....... this is the dilema of the puppy buyer, in my breed anyway. Yes but part of the reason some of them are dodgey is because we gave them little choice if they wanted to breed. We didnt sell them good breeding dogs when they asked and we didnt help them or work with them and we didnt give them accesss to good stud dogs. If they hung on and wanted to breed anyway they had little choice but to breed with less than perfect dogs bred by people who didnt really have much knowledge to impart to them and because we treat them like crimminals and the enemy they dont mix with us and learn what is needed to help the breed. We have to accept that we have played a role in this too.

The RSPCA are keen to have laws introduced to have the age of flying a pup made higher the push at the roundtable for export puppies was for 6 months. That wont work and I dont think it would ever have a chance of being made law for a whole variety of reasons but if they go through the back door and make it one of their guidelines although not something which can be enforced they can pressure the airlines to introduce such policies which in effect shackles us any way. the theory is that many puppy farmers are selling puppies via the net and flying them home. If you make them wait until they are older it will probebly cut down on the number they fly out but no one seems to get that this wont stop them breeding - they will move them around via other means in bulk and sell more to pet shops and agents. In the mean time it also impact on us and our puppy buyers.

I will speak about a couple of breeds that Im very familiar with but I wont name them because its not worth the grief. One breed was pretty popular - no big deal genetic issues, and you would be hard pressed to walk down a suburban street 20 years ago and not see one in someone's yard. Lots of kids grew up with them and the demand for them is still very high. About the time when limited register was introduced things started to change for the breed. The breeders decided that their bloodlines were special and needed to be protected,they became fearful that this breed may be used and abused by the dreaded cross bred breeder as Poodles had been and it became harder and harder for anyone to buy a main register pup especially if they had the audacity to want to breed purebred dogs without doing as they were told by the breeder and of course showing them. It wasnt O.K. any more to purchase a great female which the breeder deemed suitable for breeding and then later use a champion stud dog which someone else had shown to be sure you were breeding puppies close to the standard with back up from the breeder to ensure you knew you had to have them tested and checked for various things before you were allowed to use the champion stud dog because any that were suitable for breeding were either kept for the breeder or put out on limited register - so even if the owner did find a little boy and breed with it and became a low life back yard breeder the puppies couldnt be registered. There are very few people who breed this breed who are not registered. Very few peopel who breed more than a litter every two years or so because if they did the other breeders would think that disgusting. In fact I would say Ive only ever seen one person who bred them and put them out without papers from registered dogs. Fast forward 20 years - all those kids who grew up with them now want one of their own for their families to enjoy - not to breed with - not to show just to live with. 5 years ago it was getting pretty hard to find a registered pup to go out as a pet dog of this breed - now - its almost impossible. 5 years ago the only way a breeder could aquire a registered dog for breeding from this breed no matter how long they had been breeding was from homes they had placed main register pups from. This has made the gene pool shrink to a tiny number of dogs in comparison to how many could be used for breeding registered dogs 20 years ago. One particular genetic issue has shown up which is a real bitch and its going to take a hell of a lot of skill to ensure it gets gone and stays gone from the breed. Rather than the breeders, placing them on limited register, desexing contracts and doing everything they could to ensure that only those who they knew would do exactly as they were doing or who would do as they were told could get their dogs it would have been much better for the breed if they had of given those who wanted to have a go at breeding main registered good dogs and encouraged them to investigate and learn new things as well as benefit from their experience and have a go. I get that under neath all of the glory seeking and power games there was a genuine desire to protect the breed and the numbers of breeders have dropped for other reasons too but it hasnt worked and it has instead meant that people who really wanted this breed to bring into their families seek similar sized dogs which are more accessable and driven the demand for puppy farm dogs up. No point what so ever in the breeders doing a single thing to promote this breed because there are no registered puppies to place. The other breed 20 years ago had few breeders and the gene pool was pretty small but most breeders put all of the pups out on main register. If you wanted to breed them it was very easy to find a good breeder who was more than happy to sell you a main register dog and help you out when mating time came to source a great stud dog. No big deal genetic issues in the breed at this time. The same emphasis wasnt on whether or not someone who wanted to breed would show them because they were in the main a working dog. People went off and lived with them, learned about them and bred them sometimes. If someone said they might want to breed with it later on the breeder made sure they were selling them a pup which wouldnt do any damage to the breed and it would have a fair shot at doing only good things for future generations. If someone bred a litter now and then and didnt show them it was no big deal and they were given access to great stud dogs. there are more breeders breeding this breed who will never get near a show ring but because they have purchased their dogs from breeders who do and who made sure they were selling good dogs for breeding and because great stud dogs are made easily available to the bitches which have been selected for breeding - the breed as a whole is in great shape. There are no big deal genetic issues and people can usually get a dog of this breed without a great long wait. The breeders dont have to do much work in promoting the breed because the owners do. There are always consequences and if a breeder is truly interested in the breed and the dogs into the future and the whole thing isnt about egos and power and control its time we stood back from this a bit and looked at the whole issue holitically taking every bit of it into account and stop thinking we are special and superior and the only ones who may have the best interests of dogs at heart.

What invoice number?

Yours has definitely 100 % been sent and it was sent with all of the others.I know this because I know who you are and thought very nice thoughts of you as I was writing the address.

the stats are under 10% we bered around 60,000 puppies and around well over 600,00 is the estimate all up. But I still dont think many get it. Just as you think only ethical registered breeders should be breeding puppies some groups think we are the anti christ. What we do is different and I can give you 100 reasons as to why I think what we do is better and how its better for people to buy a registerd pup but thats just not cutting it any more and it's time we saw that when we go nuts and expect we can call for new laws and that we will be exempt. We are not and we will not be treated any differently and lots of peopel dont think the way do it is the best way to do it.

Yep however, even if we tell them otherwise there are not enough breeders or dogs to fill the demand. but that wasn't the question you asked. A shortfall in available puppies might very well be the outcome of shutting down all puppyfarms, but that's a whole other subject. Go slower - what do you mean? Ok, I'll try and explain what I mean but a disclaimer first....no matter how it comes across, just keep in mind 'm not being argumentive and I agree with you completely. Puppy farms and their associated outlets, pet shops......do fill a market need. Not all pups who come from there end up in pounds, some of them...a lot of them....end up in loving homes with families who love their dogs just as much as you and I love ours. Not all of them are impulse buys, a lot of them are planned for, saved for....and the reason people buy them there is because they don't know where else to buy them....or the pet shops are selling the type of pet the public wants....small, cute, fluffy. And along with that come media claims of robustness, hybrid vigour etc. No matter what we think or know, it's already out there. I don't know the figures but I'd hazard a guess that the puppies bought from pet shops, puppy farms and commercial-type backyard breeders FAR outweigh the puppies bought from ANKC breeders. Take away those outlets, and it doesn't mean people stop buying puppies....it just means they now have nowhere to buy them from and someone, somewhere, has to fill the gap because there WILL be a gap in the market eventually. And there is the whole other subject. Is it possible to look to other countries...European countries in particular, where dog ownership is vastly different to here, and see how they manage their pet puppy markets? Ahh much better - yes I agree 100 %

We have a pet owner course which takes them through exercises to help them to bond with their puppies and learn about what makes their puppy unique etc. It goes out for free. Thats given me new idea.

I love this idea.

I want to see the council to take more responsibility. We pay rego fees each year so use some of that to put the current laws into effect. I don't think the RSPCA should have the market on animal stuff, the council needs to step up to the plate and be actively involved in these issues. Yep so do I but I do think there is a difference between policing laws which are about compliance for some mickey mouse stuff - like where my dog sleeps and how many I can have in a house yard etc and the real stuff that impacts like not feeding them or throwing them against the fence etc too. I dont think its up to a council or a police officer or the RSPCA to tell me when I have to vaccinate my dog and make it a crimminal offence if I dont as is the case in NSW and Victoria. i dont think mandatory laws should dictate that my dogs should be kept on hard impervious floors when they have evolved to run on dirt and dig and sunbake either. When you get laws and the RSPCA policing them which turns an old lady into a crimminal because she took a dog to a dog show which was debarked by a licenced and very competent vet because she didnt ask some stranger first its time to say we have truly gone way too far.

This is what I want from a breeder and for the most part, that's what I got with my breeders. Trouble is how to you write that in ?

I want someone who loves them. If you love them and care about what happens to them for the rest of their lives then you dont compromise on anything for any reason.

Yep however, even if we tell them otherwise there are not enough breeders or dogs to fill the demand. but that wasn't the question you asked. A shortfall in available puppies might very well be the outcome of shutting down all puppyfarms, but that's a whole other subject. Go slower - what do you mean?

Well until I just went to check I thought we had two up on our website and available for down load. Im not sure why they are not there but they muct have been missed in the website change over. I'm hoping they will be back up in a minute . I can email them to you if you like to have a look at while we are waiting for them to go back up. Julie

This isnt my definition - its the definition which has been tabled and RSPCA, animal welfare orgs and legislators are working on. I know this is an issue and that many people who protest puppy farmers think puppy farmers are something dfferent but the reality is that sooner or later if we are to cotrol whats going on we have to agree to the basic definition and for now at least the accepted definition of what is a puppy farmer is set and what I think a puppy farmer is or you isnt counted. Taking on someone who breeds only pet puppies is different to taking on puppy farmers and ther's no point in getting upset with me over it I didnt make it up. I happened to be at the meeting where it was discussed and an agreement was struck which would be the accepted definition of puppy farming for legislative purposes. You also dont seem to get that purebred registered breeders who dont breed for the pet market are seen tobe just as cruel and just as needing control as any breeders do.In fact some sections think we are the worst of them because of the suffering we cause by breeding for the ring. We are not special and just because you think that someone who breeds more than you think is the right number or that they breed for a different purpose or the same purpose differently doesnt get us off the hook whether I agree with you or not.

Great stuff. So if we are to use education - who do we educate and where do we educate them and with what do we educate them on who will be the educators ? How do we best go about collecting data, specifically what data will we collect ? I do not support licencing but I do support cooling off periods - but how long should this cooling off period last and under what conditions?

YOU hit the nail all right, education starts at school and thats were the generations need to be taught animal care and respect from kindi. all the laws in the world cant change human nature, some are the cruelst of all species n thats saying something, considering the thread on bitch fights, just look at the killer in america who has asked never to be released, although i did find his reasoning a little ironic, he took a guilty plea bargin to escape the death penalty then said if the other prisionrs dont kill him he will probably kill himself. if he didnt plea bargin the death penalty had been a cert? when people were closer to the land and livestock i think that training was much more widespread not millions of kids have never seen milk come from a cow, an egg come from a chook. still get this mental picture of a kid at sydney royal a few years ago, standing appalled watching a cow being milked and his loving mum, said see son thats where milk comes from. to a horrified squeal "THATS SOOO GROSS...." and he began throwing up I once took a beagle pup 8 weeks old which we intended to keep from a litter to school in my arms to pick up one of my kids - about 6 years ago now. Any way the kids saw the beagle pup and it turned into a tourist attraction as they were leaving school. The kids were talking among themselves and one said - its a girl. I said no its a boy and they argued it was a girl because it had nipples. So I very delicately expleined the difference and told them of how the boys private bits were higher up than the girls. Next day I took two - one girl and one boy to show them the difference. One mother went off her head and accused me of peddling pornography in the play ground. To this day I still cant believe it ! So sarcasticlly I said "Oh Im sorry in future if I bring a puppy any where near the school Ill put a nappy on it so the kids cant see the sex organs - and she said "THANK YOU :p .If I could be trusted to do that when ever I came near the school and her child and not to discuss such disgracful things again around children she would not report me to the principal and the police How I made it back the car without literally falling on the ground and laughing Ill never know We've moved since then but I wonder how her 10 year old who couldnt tell the difference between the boys and girl dogs turned out now he can find porno on the net and his hormones are pumping.

Good question but I dont know what would be reasonable for the average Jo Blow. I've been waiting for a dog from a breeder on here since shortly after I joined and I'm happy to wait but I wouldnt expect the guy on the street to hang out for that long. I wouldnt wait that long. Would you have been prepared to wait that long if you didnt already have a dog to live with?

Yes I agree with this. It's the - I want a puppy and I want it now - attitude that keeps the sausage factories and pet shop sales in business. Sometimes- but if I want a puppy what time frame should I be expected to hang around for with only a chance of ever getting a puppy at the end of the tunnel?

If we call for more policing of the current laws - do we mean more policing of all the current laws or are we only calling for more policing of the current laws which we agree with which dont affect us? If we are calling for all laws which are current to be policed are we prepared to have a group policing them which is anti breeder and which has discretionary powers and police powers without external accountability? If we are calling for more laws to be introduced are we calling for laws which will treat all people who breed dogs as potentail crimminals and animal abusers or only some - if its only some then how do we identify them and have laws which apply to them alone without those laws being deemed to be inequitable and restricting trade and basic property rights of only one or two groups? Who will decide which groups or group is exempt?

Yep however, even if we tell them otherwise there are not enough breeders or dogs to fill the demand.

licence would be required by anyone with breeding dogs in a kennel exactly as it is now but that a separate body of educated people in animal husbandry to have police powers and to inspect regularly. I would imagine that the extras which I feel are basic such as a run, comfortable bedding, regular excercise and cuddles could easily be added to the pathetic current requirements. I know and understand completely the breeders on this thread who are doing it right will feel irritated but it isn't for them, they would just become part of it to improve living conditions for all dogs in a kennel ( farm) situation. I agree with Anne too that there is not an oversupply but I belive the comments I made earlier about restrictions have added to the problem. There was a day whe dogs took themselves off to do whatever and came home when they felt like it, there used to be heaps of dogs wandering around, life was simpler then, times have changed and fines are heavy. You can't take your dog where you please either, that irritates me a lot in fact Fremantle council just one day decided that dogs could not be in the main CBD and that was that... I loved Sundays at freo with my dog and all the other dogs, shopping coffee relaxing. It is increasingly difficult to find a rental which allows dogs etc etc I think its a little bit more than irritated. I can tell you right now that a very high percentage of people who breed dogs on a small scale will walk away if they have to allow people with police powers who are not policemen to inspect their homes regularly in order to be able to breed a litter of puppies.Mandatory codes and laws pertaining to breeding dogs apply to everyone breeding dogs including those who only breed a litter every couple of years and the only ones who will feel comfortable about that are big puppy farmers who have the money and facilities to feel comfortable about this. If small hobby breeders decide its not worth the grief and stop breeding, if the demand stays the same,if those who already have planning permits can ensure they pass inspections and those who hide and dont apply for a permit and operate without anyone knowing they are there continue to do so Im having a hard time seeing how this will help much. There are also major issue and that is should people who breed dogs have no right to free enjoyment of their own property. Is it acceptable for people to loose their basic rights because they want to breed a litter of puppies? I dont think so and its why Im asking for suggestions of possible solutions without needing to change laws. Just as you feel that law changes have impacted in areas people didnt anticipate or care about when they bought in new laws in your area they will also have negative consequences if they are aimed at controlling breeders. Personally I think if there are any law changes they should be less prohibitive rather than more prohibitive.

So you think that if someone breeds more than - how many- they should come under the notice of their state canine association and be treated as potentially people who keep their dogs in sub standard conditions? What happens to the ones who keep their dogs in poor conditions but only breed now and then, or those who have 3 or 4 different prefixes , or those who breed one litter of purebreds to 10 litters of cross breds? What is this magic number which demonstrates a breeder is breeding commercially rather than breeding more often in order to identify or breed out an issue in the breed? Dont we have to start somewhere???? You ask for discussions and yet are so quick to squash suggestions, hey I can sit in my own little safe world or I can chose to join y'll and try and find solutions...I have had a bleeping bad day...4 of my sheep had to be shot this morning cos they were literally mauled within an inch of their life by bloody cross breds that no matter what happens to puppy farmers there will always be mongrels to maul sheep. I thought this was about puppy farms so yes if a reg breeder is registering more than 1 litter a month sorry but I consider that puppy farming....either that or they are making a shit load of money and not breeding for the betterment of the breed. Im sorry to hear about your sheep and I understand that its been a bad day but Im not squashing suggestions Im trying to discuss the issues - I asked you what you thought should instigate the measures you suggested and you have answered that you think anyone who is breeding more than and registering more than a litter a month should be inspected and have these checks done on them. So given that the definition of a puppy farmer is anyone who breeds puppies in sub standard conditions how does this provide a solution to the problem of people who are breeding registered puppies at less than a litter a month or breeding any litter and not being registered? Why do you think that someone who is making money or breeding more than a litter a month cant be breeding for the betterment of the breed? There isnt much point in making suggestions if no questions are asked and the possibility of that making any impact are discussed.