Steve

Im glad that bit is settled. Humans arent usually allergic to dog fur because even though you can see it and it means you get more housework the fur is too big for the kid or any one to breath in. Its actually the saliva and dander which people have allergies to and thats not seasonal .If the child was allergic to the dog he would be allergic to the dog all year round - it wouldnt get worse just because its shedding time. Fur on the dog is the same as fur off the dog and on the couch assuming the child touches the dog all year.

A crack down on ownership can come in any country, in any state in any town. Not much difference that I can see with what is happening here with pit bull type dogs and calls for licences. War can also affect any country and bumping off the enemy's dogs isnt a war crime but it will tick em off pretty well.

I dont agree with this 100 % for Maremmas but its close - Much also depends on what the layout of your property is ,its size and how often you are going to see the dog. Some of this is written for someone who only sees them once a fortnight or so - I see,handle and feed mine every day http://www.feral.org.au/guardian-dogs/ I also have a heap of stuff which I can email you on breed peculiarities when they are working. This is an awesome website and tells you most of the story too. http://www.maremmano.com/amarcord.htm

Mine are not a threat to my neighbours or their animals and if a stranger or a dog enters the padoock they are quite safe though brave because the dog yells and tells them to stay away from the sheep.I have people coming and going all day and I have a dozen or so other dogs here including a working kelpie. maremmas work by barking, marking and by being completely non agressive to the animals they are working with which enables them to direct the sheep to a safe place. Other dogs say run or Ill bite you but these just say go there and never bite or nip. Much of how they work is explained by watching them as pets and up close. If I hear a noise outside and open the door to let the dog out to see what the noise is she stands in front of me and tries to block the door - she wont go out. If I go out she backs up to the bedroom and stays with the kids if ther is no other adult in the house. If there is another adult she moves out ahead of me clearing the area yelling - back off - here comes Mum come near her and Ill kill you. If I go out to the clothes line she checks for snakes and yells but stays within a few feet of me. She takes her cue on how to react on me and my reactions - so if I yell SHUDDUP she thinks Im barking. If my body language tells her Im stressed and worried about someone or something she knows before I realise she has picked up the cue. So if a dog comes into the paddock with the sheep the Maremmas move between the dog and the sheep - the dog is quite safe if it leaves the paddock or if it simply stays away from the sheep and doesnt act in a threatening manner and the sheep dont tell the dog they are scared. If a pack of dogs came into the paddock - immediately the dog will move the sheep to a corner and move out to make itself the target rather than the sheep - Its hackles come up - looks like a lion, it bares its teeth and there is no mistaking it - come any closer and you will die . Even in areas where there are major wild dog and dingo problems they avoid killing if they can. Studies of them with wolves and bears has also shown killing isnt something they choose lightly - but make no mistake when they do - it's quick and very efficient. Also they help the ewes when they are lambing to clean up quickly to prevent the smell attracting predators, they will use their bodies to provide shelter to the lambs and I wouldnt live without them. Now Im going to say something which isnt politically correct - I love these dogs. The ones which are in the house have used their magic to make me love them and depend on them and it surprises me how much I adore them.The ones which are working with the sheep are priceless and I couldnt imagine life without them. The idea of them being at risk or in danger, homeless or needing rescue is horrific and they are expected to act like they are afraid and submissive and traditional temp testing doesnt go well for them. Andrea has done exceptional work in saving probably hundreds from death row but taking on an adult Maremma for the paddock isnt as easy as it sounds and you cant expect just because its the right breed that it has the right training with the right species as well as humans or that it has the necessary genes.

This behaviour is not common for Maremma as you dont normally expect to find bodies.In almost 20 years Ive never had a dead fox on my property and normally you dont look for dead things you look for no sign of them because they will only actually attack and kill if they are given no option to do so. The year before we had the Maremma we lost over 100 lambs to foxes and I havent lost a single one since - but Ive still never seen any evidence they have killed one. Usually with two in the paddock one is more likely to go out further to chase the predator off but even then its a last resort to actually kill - though if they have to they dont muck around. We had one incident when I lived on a larger property where we woke up one morning to 4 wild dogs belly up with broken backs inthe dam - but as I said this is uncommon because they prefer to scare them off and they usually do.

I have to sign notes at the beginning of each year to enable the school to take photos of my child and allow them to appear in newsletters etc. I have also been to school concerts etc where the principal has informed us that it is illegal to take photos at that event and parents have been told to turn off their video cameras.

I dunno - I dont mind either way but I can imagine scenarios where people would mind if they are going to be published on line or in places where other people can see them. There are a lot of people in this country who for what ever reason dont want someone knowing they are in the state or even that they are still alive. What if the lady who has recently had her son burn her house down was frightened of him coming back if he knew they were in an area identified by a lanmark etc in the back ground? What if he thought he had killed her and his children and didnt know they were still alive - what of people who may be paranoid for no good reason who have come out of domestic violence situations or been witness to a crime etc ? Sorry I think if you're going to keep them and just use them for your own personal collection thats different to publishing them and I dont think that anyone can assume that just because you live in a world that is secure that everyone else doesnt have fair reason not to like it or feel threatened etc.

Can you give me a ring when you get the chance? or PM me your number and I will call you Julie

That's good news, I'm sure the children will learn very quickly to be gentle. I don't care what my donation is used for, so long as helps Missty and her family :D :D :D Thank you.

How would this stop people buying dogs on a whim ?

Thank you - we may need a hand so Il yell if we need you. Reports from the owner this morning are that Missy is coping O.K. but seems a bit worried about the kids beingtoo close yet.[if I had my leg cut off I dont think I would want a 3 year old and 5 year old coming within a mile of me either] She slept on the owners bed and snuggled down under the blankets safe and sound.

Just being polished off - Had a delay but almost done. Then we can start on the hammer throw ;)

Regarding those stats from AWL - I think if animal welfare and animal rights are going to blame breeders and pet shops then its only fair that they take a long look at what they may do themselves to contribute and clearly some of the bigger ones do. If we are going to demand correct stats themn one of the oens they need to gather and keep is whether the dog has come from a rescue situation too in my opinion and it shouldbe something that is called to answer along with breeders and pet shops.

<H1 Mc="158" sb_id="ms__id295">I would hate to see it get to this here - The obvious question is what happens to dogs who live in places where there are under 10 ? We have to find some way or ways of making a difference and soon. http://www.economist.com/node/17468228?story_id=17468228&fsrc=rss "Puppy mills"</H1>A dog's life<H2 class=rubric sb_id="ms__id297">Direct democracy cares for canines </H2>Nov 11th 2010 | Kansas City ODD as it seems, the state of Missouri is home to 1,462 licensed commercial dog breeders. Between them, they breed about 1m puppies a year. About 40% of all the dogs that end up in pet shops across America are born in Missouri's smaller country towns. Some breeding places hardly bear inspection. Cori Menkin, senior director of legislative initiatives for the American Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals, has seen "horrific" conditions there, with up to 1,000 breeding bitches under one roof. The worst of these "puppy mills" are filthy with urine and piled-up faeces. The animals have such matted coats that they cannot defecate properly. Some bitches freeze to death; others spend their whole lives on wire-floored cages, unable to walk on solid ground. "Whenever you are engaging in an industry that uses live animals and is seeking to make as much profit as possible, less money is put into the business, meaning less care is provided for the animals," Ms Menkin says. Animal-rights supporters claim that the laws governing these breeding sheds are vague, unenforceable and insufficient to maintain even the most rudimentary care. This is why they gathered more than 190,000 signatures in support of the Puppy Mill Cruelty Prevention Act—an exercise in direct democracy that was passed on November 2nd to improve conditions in the state's breeding facilities. The groups created the ballot initiative after repeatedly failing to get bills passed by the Missouri General Assembly, explains Barbara Schmitz, director of the Missouri branch of the Humane Society. She estimates that licensed premises may account for only half the number of puppy mills in the state. There are probably as many unlicensed ones, adding up to almost 3,000 in all, operating under laws that have not been updated in 18 years. In 2009 the Missouri Department of Agriculture, which oversees breeders, created a programme called Operation Bark Alert. Under this, individuals can report unlicensed breeders to the state. According to Misti Preston, a spokesman for the department, the initiative has helped rescue more than 3,600 dogs and put 180 unlicensed commercial breeders out of business. But the department can only do so much. Ms Preston admits that there are only 12 inspectors and that, between them, they have to check on more than 2,800 facilities each year—including breeding sheds, dog pounds and pet shops. And with puppies selling for $50-200 each, the fines levied are so low that they are simply seen by unscrupulous breeders as part of the cost of doing business. The new amendment will provide clearer, enforceable standards. It allows no more than 50 breeding bitches in any one facility. Breeders with more than ten will have to provide sufficient food and clean water, veterinary care, regular exercise and adequate rest between breeding cycles. The amendment also regulates the size of kennels, so that the animals have room to stretch. Any violation of this law will count as a class C misdemeanor, carrying a maximum penalty of up to 15 days in jail and a fine of up to $300, still rather low. Ms Menkin hopes the amendment will have an impact on breeders not only in Missouri, but other states as well. "We hoped that people in Missouri would understand the reputation they have garnered in the rest of the country as being the puppy-mill capital," she says. "And I'm glad they came out to vote to change it." United States

for those of you who were expecting me to post them out Monday Im sorry Im a couple fo days late. Life has been full on here with lengthy hospital time as one of my kids had an accident. They are now definitely on their way and should be there any day now. Sorry about that but I wasnt able to get to the P.O. in business hours. Julie

Me too.

Thanks guys - The vet has been great and so has everyone who has donated. We have enough now to cover her vetting so the people who donated via Carrie have said its O.K us to use their donations to give her a bit of a kick start on christmas and be sure Missy has food and everything else she needs while the family gets back on their feet. Thank you so very much. I think the owner is crying tears of happiness now almost as much as she was crying tears in desperation 2 days ago. Julie

$585 showing as donations this morning but thats between Pacers members, dogz members and MDBA members.Hard to get an exact figure just from dogz unless user names are used as references or theyask for a receipt. Lots want it to be an anon donation and at a guess more wil show tomorrow due the hold up with transfers showing etc. As soon as I know more and can get back to a computer Ill fill you in Julie

Ran out of air doesnt really tell you anything and you need to have the written report which tells you more detail of the dog's physical condition and what caused him to run out of air. When you hand the dog over you assume its going to get similar conditions [regarding air especially] as it would anywhere.If conditions are O.K. for a dog to travel I dont think its acceptable to say because it has a flat face it couldnt breath. It could breath when it got on the plane and its been breathing all its life - what happened on the plane to cause it to stop breathing? It didnt grow a flatter face while it was on the hour flight. You might say suffocation due to the wrong mix of gases in the air or lack of oxegen or it died from suffocation due to stress, or heat, or even cold but they cant get away with saying it died because it ran out of air without saying why it didnt have enough air without explaining something in the environment on the plane which caused the dog to run out of air in flight. Im not buying it and I reckon just the fact someone said it simply ran out of air is shonky too. Sounds to me like they are using the fact that its a flatfaced breed to get out of answering the question. Cause of death. It ran out of air caused by ---------. Dont tell me it was. It ran out of air because it was a flatfaced dog unless you also explain -It ran out of air as conditions on the plane did not supply enough air, caused it to be too hot, etc and caused it to die due to its inability to cope due to its anatomy. If this is the case then every person who flies a dog should be informed that conditions on airplanes are so hazardous that they could cause our dogs to die - and if they know that already they shouldnt be accepting our dogs and placing them under these sort of conditions without at least a warning. How come the dog could breath O.K. when it got on the plane and couldnt while it was on the plane ? If conditions on planes are severe enough to cause a flat faced dog to die then they are severe enough to cause any other do to be - at a minimum - at risk and none of us hand over our dogs with an assumption that there will be less air. Fact is the dog had enough air all its life and getting on the plane - it didnt on the plane and Id say - the airline pays and thats why they have insurance.

As I said above Ive had a drama of my own this afternoon and Ive been at the hospital for 7 hours so I havent had a chance yet to hear what the final figures are going to be for the op and ongoing checks and care until the little dog is 100% again and havent been able yet to have a look at deposits etc.the estimate for the op from Carrie yesterday was around $1500 but the vet has discounted this now.I think We have had around - Im guessing - $200 donated by Dol. As soon as I can I will update you all so everyone knows the tally of the funds donated and the costs and final outcome but Im sorry Im flat out and it takes a day or two to be able to see deposits and its only been a day since we asked for help - experience tells me now and then people say they will be donating and then they dont too. Anyway as soon as I know I will keep you updated. Im hoping to grab a photo too - perhaps Carrie can help with that. Ill be off line most of the day tomorrow but Ill have my mobile if anyone needs me. 0427015152 Julie

If I move a dog out thats been working with sheep - especially if I send one of those sheep with it - not a problem. But you cant take one which has been lying around on a couch and expect it to look after sheep and vice versa unless you move through the steps you need to ensure you bond them. You never have to worry about the dog accepting the livestock but rather the livestock accepting the dog and over all they accept what the human in their lives accepts. Maremmas dont have the same responses to pack order issues and often you see the dog with the most dominance acting less assertive.Many of the traditionally accepted canine behaviours are absent or not apparent.

Thanks guys. Mita we are members of givit so will use them to help her find some crockery and linen etc.

Do you have a business plan?

17% of cats bounce back too. There are many questions that this raises for me especially considering the practice of rescuing whelping bitches and cats - hand raising kittens and pups etc and selling their puppies and kittens via rescue. Those stats are much higher for AWL dogs and cats bouncing than pet shop dogs and cats being surendered so you have to ask given that so many of the dogs they place in homes themselves whether or not they are actually contributing to the problem. Especially when they are importing rescue dogs into their own shelter from other areas.