Steve

O.K. Yes you're right I can see it now - though the fact that they actually wrote that in as something you have no choice on is beyond me. I dont want to seeem that Im condoning anything they are doing but you seeem to miss somethings. Firstly you cant expect them to shut them down based on what you have presented. If their records show that the dogs are only bred every 18 months then how does anyone know any different? How do you expect council to go on someone else's say so with out evidence? You also seem to miss that if you have any more than 5 fertile bitches in Victoria you come under the same rules as they do even if you are canine council members.

The mandatory code doesnt say they can't breed every season. The mandatory code doesnt say they cant have them in yards with dirt and grass. Id rather see dogs running in large pens than living their whole lives on concrete. Do you have only concrete where your dogs run? If in fact there are laws which say that those dogs have to be on concrete then yours have to be too. Bitches must be at least twelve months of age before being mated and a bitch must not have more than two litters in any eighteen month period. doesn't this mean the same thing? this is not what they are doing apparently they are violating this - breeding every season is what im reading. the fact that they spend their time in paddocks like cattle on dirt not grass there's no grass to be seen BTW don't believe me see the footage i gave you to view.......with their type of coat as you see in one picture has dirt on his coat and is matted. an oodle coat and dirt don't think mix very well. their beds must be constructed of other material besides concrete, concrete is easier to clean than just plain dirt, this is why they stipulate must be of material (but does not mention concrete) that can be easily cleaned. one of my first pedigree dogs came from a farmer (i didn't even know the term then) that just had her dogs on dirt and mud in the cold, its not ideal. she got closed down in the end from RSPCA and the council down there. the dogs were dirty and matted. kept like cattle as well. You must be looking at a different mandatory code to me - could you please direct me to where you got this from? When those photos were taken we were right in the middle of the biggest drought we have ever had to live through and peopel across rural australia had back yards that looked like that. In this town there wouldnt have been more than a dozen houses which did have a blade of grass. Dogs all over this country live in back yards they dont all sleep on satin pillows and thats not good surface either - nor is carpet.Talking about one kennel which is supposedly breaching the codes and swapping over to one you bought a puppy from doesnt back up why council should shut these people down.

Are your dogs on concrete except for when they are exercising? How do they win. Animal lib take photos of the dogs they have in concrete floored pens and say thats cruel then you say they shouldnt be in dirt yards - yards which are bigger than lots of people's backyards! How is this cruel?

3.7 Housing Catteries and kennels must be designed, constructed, serviced and maintained in a way that ensures the good health and well being of the animals, whilst preventing escape or injury to humans. Housing must provide protection from the weather (wind, rain, sun and extremes of climate), vermin and harassment from other animals. Materials should be selected for ease of maintenance and cleaning, durability and non-toxicity. Floors of animal housing areas of catteries and kennels must be made of an impervious material to assist cleaning and drainage. Wood, brick, dirt or grass floors are not acceptable except in exercise areas.

The mandatory code doesnt say they can't breed every season. The mandatory code doesnt say they cant have them in yards with dirt and grass. Id rather see dogs running in large pens than living their whole lives on concrete. Do you have only concrete where your dogs run? If in fact there are laws which say that those dogs have to be on concrete then yours have to be too.

yes this is what the council keep on saying and ramming it through but its not true any of it. ex-workers have said they do all sorts of things to their dogs after they are finished with them. ex-workers are saying this publicly on prisoners for profit website and its horrific. council keep on saying that banksia is inpsected when it is not and hasn't been for 5 years all the reports are blank. ranger got up and stated that they inspect at the RSPCA puppy farm forum then was questioned and then back tracked and said they haven't enough resources. one councillor stated to me in a private email didn't know 14 farms existed go and investigate, it was all a crock found out from a source that was at a council meeting that the councillor did indeed know how many farms were down there and was winding me and others up jin private emails just to make fun at us. this councillor asked the question themselves to council in a meeting how many farms and she got an answer. i also had emails back and forth with a past mayor. they advertise in the local paper (our family live down here) and always make out they are the best and are following codes of practice when they haven't been for years as stated again on prisoners for profit website . so its all a farce......just to make themselves look good in the public eye but all is not good at all......... What bits of the code arent they following?

Standard conditions are laid down in mandatory codes for breeding dogs and in council by laws for each shire. Have a look at this video - Banksia Park breed puppies in standard conditions.

No that wont work - because people are just as able to breed puppies in rotten conditions whether its one puppy or 100 and the definition of a puppy farmer is NOT BASED ON HOW MANY THEY BREED. Even if it were its against fair trading laws to put restrictions on people's ability to trade. whats their definition of a farmer then if its not on how many they breed? thats a bit crappy no wonder ANKC breeders are being put in the same paddock!! that sux.. one farm produced blinkin 2000 pups a year they proudly tell everyone and they house 300 breeding dogs, is it how many they house then? I dont know how many times Ive typed this in just this thread but Ill try and go slowly and do it again. The definition which was decided on for the purposes of further discussions and future potential law changes by RSPCA Australia, RSPCA NSW, RSPCA ACT ,RSPCA Queensland, Death row pets, Animal welfare league, YounG lawyers, ANKC, Dogs NSW , MDBA and AAPDB - IS SOMEONE WHO BREEDS PUPPIES IN SUBSTANDARD CONDITIONS. There is nothing - nothing which includes a person in that definition based on how many they breed, how many they own.

No that wont work - because people are just as able to breed puppies in rotten conditions whether its one puppy or 100 and the definition of a puppy farmer is NOT BASED ON HOW MANY THEY BREED. Even if it were its against fair trading laws to put restrictions on people's ability to trade.

If you are talking about my post on Finnland, I think you missed the message. 1. ban pet shop sales. 2. elevate and promote ANKC breeders as the best place to go to buy a pup. Not legislate, no where does she talk about extensive legislation. She talks about creating a different value system, you can not legislate a change of values . l still belive that stopping live pets sold in petshops is a huge starat....After all its the inpulsive buy that sells most pups ...isnt it?? The trading post takes adds via emails only now in vic so ive been told?? And petlink could also be regulated. Is it? they say its not and I can remember a debate we had here where I said I thought it was impulse buying and I was howled down. Do you really expect that the trading post and pet link are going to be regulated ? What of people's right to free trade ?

IN VICTORIA The RSPCA have limited power to do anything to enforce mandatory codes or council by laws. Thats why they are calling for new laws. Right now in Australia only in NSW do the RSPCA have the power to enforce any laws other than POCTA and what the RSPCA is aiming for is to have the same power in other states which they have in NSW. Thats why there is no point in having a go at the RSPCA because if they could have prosecuted and shut down some of these operators they would have. The bullets need to be aimed at councils.Thats why before we start banging drums and making assumptions about the state of affairs we need to know what is real and what is not.

The MDBA would like to see a situation where no live animals were sold in pet shops. But - take note. Is there any sign at all that this is going to happen? I can see pollies telling us there will be more laws and regulations against puppy farmers, I can not see any taking up the cause to stop the sale of live animals in pet shops. PIAA,ANKC,DOGS NSW and the AVA have all shown they are against moves to ban the sales of animals in pet shops and both labour and liberal made statements about restriction of trade etc in the Clover Moore bill sittings and in private. The arguments used against these sales being prohibited are still there and there has been no new research or science based studies or figures to prove that what people who support sales of pets in pet shops are not right. I think Jed is right and that lots of puppies bred in large scale commercial breeding establishments are sold in pet shops -therefore it seems logical to take away the method they sell their puppies,make it more difficult for them to sell them and they will therefore stop breeding as many. But - commercial breeding facilities are legitimate businesses and while some of us find it distasteful to breed dogs the way they do for the reasons they do but they comply with the council and state laws and mandatory codes and even though some of us think that this is what new laws will stop that is not true. The definition they use when considering new laws and consequences and policies have nothing to do with whether or not someone is breeding dogs to sell in pet shops or breeding huge numbers of puppies each year. Large scale commercial breeders will still breed commercially and in large numbers ,they will still sell their puppies to pet shops.Because - thats not what people who are drafting laws and looking at solutions who are in a position to do that are using as their definition of puppy farming. Again I say right now in Australia there is nothing which is telling me that stopping sales of puppies in pet shops is going to happen and if that is ever going to happen it is going to require a different plan of attack. If we could all work together to work on a new plan then I believe in a year or two we could actually see real progress with irrefutable evidence to seriously stopping sales of live animals in pet shops.Right now I believe that those calling for the sales of pets in pet shops to be banned have gone off half cocked with nothing to fight with yet and its not going to happen. In fact I think the longer it continues the way it is going the more they are seen as rednecks and animal rights militants. Our solution to stopping the sales of puppies in pet shops is to gather statistics, and facts and real science and present a logical reasonable case as well as rallies,petitions etc when we have the ammunition and the ability to win the war. It is also going to take a compaign to educate the public that this is not the best way to purchase a pup and enable them to find alternative places to purchase their new family members when they decide they would like one. Right now every argument you present can be and is easily refuted. and Jo public dont have a clue about where they can go to buy a puppy without having to dive through rings of fire to get one. There's more but Im running - I will be back later.

I cant speak for the ankc but Id be very surprised if the reason they didnt attend was any where near the reasons you have given. Its certainly not why I didnt attend. I didnt attend because I dont support what is being pushed and attending would have looked like I did support it. I get that we are all on the same page and we all want whats best for the dogs I just think this is going off half cocked. You dont have to attend an animal rights dominated rally to be involved in the process.

O.K. so we ban the sale of live animals in pet shops - what then? People will still be breeding lots of dogs, people will still be buying lots of dogs, people will get more money for what they breed because there is no middle man. No middle man to filter out the rotten operators and act as a buffer between rotten breeders and the new owners. What then?

The underlying goal of ALV is to abolish the property status of animals. They are against all breeders. I totally disagree with this statement. I have read this thread with interest :D and wonder if anyone commenting in this thread has even been to a puppy farm, or rescued and rehabilitated a puppy farm bitch/es? The rally was to bring AWARENESS to the conditions of puppy farm dogs and stop sales of dogs in pet shops and to introduce Oscar's Law. I applaud people like Cosmolo who has stood up for the rights of those dogs that are suffering such shocking cruelty every day of their lives. Not much point in disagreeing I see what their goal is in plain sight on their website. Yes Ive been to a puppy farm and I have 2 dogs here now which have come from one. The rights of the dogs? Feed the crocodile. Yes Steve, every puppy farm dog has the right to a normal dog life. Not a life constricted in a cage, living in urine and faeces and being bred until the dog is no longer able. I would have thought the MDBA would have a very strong stance in seeing all puppy farms abolished? You see just because I dont agree with the method doesnt mean I dont agree with the intent. Of course the MDBA has a strong stance on stopping puppy farms you know that but I dont agree that what is going on here is the way to do it. I understand that the majority of people have good intentions but there are unintended consequences which I happen to think outweigh any potential benefits. What is your definition of a puppy farm? As an owner I have a responsibility to ensure my dogs have a good life - thats different to allocating rights to the dog.I have a right to own a dog as long as I am responsible. A dog doesnt have a right to anything because it cant be responsible for anything.

The underlying goal of ALV is to abolish the property status of animals. They are against all breeders. I totally disagree with this statement. I have read this thread with interest :D and wonder if anyone commenting in this thread has even been to a puppy farm, or rescued and rehabilitated a puppy farm bitch/es? The rally was to bring AWARENESS to the conditions of puppy farm dogs and stop sales of dogs in pet shops and to introduce Oscar's Law. I applaud people like Cosmolo who has stood up for the rights of those dogs that are suffering such shocking cruelty every day of their lives. Not much point in disagreeing I see what their goal is in plain sight on their website. Yes Ive been to a puppy farm and I have 2 dogs here now which have come from one. The rights of the dogs? Feed the crocodile.

Was that all it was for, though? No it was to push for new laws for breeding establishments and stopping the sales of dogs in pet shops.

The underlying goal of ALV is to abolish the property status of animals. They are against all breeders.

you cannot speak for everyone. Not every ANKC breeder is a small time, living room lounging dog home. THere are many who have a more professional kennel set up in Australia. The ANKC should be stepping up for it's registered breeders and it's not. Why? Because they don't police their own COE and hence throw YOU reg breeders to the slaughter of government laws. Why do people turn to backyard breeders and pet shops for animals? Because MAJORITY still think that only reg breeders breed for show dogs and if you want a pet you go to a pet shop. And that show dogs are all in bred and REALLY expensive. THe reason mass and oodle breeders succeed is their marketing. Reg breeders, you are paying an organisation to market and represent you and they're failing. So what do you do ... you want to pull yourselves in futher and cut the nose to spite the face. Where was the big ANKC stand to show people who to go to for a purebred pup? Not at the rally. Why do people believe it ... because reg breeders have not had advertising campaigns, have not trusted the public, and have not trusted each other. Look at some of the posts on DOL "OMG I went showing my dog and could you believe it, members of the public kept talking to me and wanting to touch my dog THE HORROR" or "Oh I got this misspelled email, *chortle chortle* someone of that standing must be stupid and cannot have a pup from me". I find them really upsetting sometimes particularly when pack mentality sets in on these threads. It's really really disappointing. Who keeps dog breeds alive? Not just breeders but PEOPLE WHO OWN THEM AND PERPETUATE THEIR POSITIVE POINTS. Who helps pay for your 'hobby' ... the puppy buyers. The happy owners who get your beautiful puppies. But no more and more I see unattainable breeders, people being turned off breeding their favourite breed properly and being attacked like a gazelle in a lion pack. So of course people go do it backyard. Breeding to improve the breed is not just health tests and the show ring, it's breeding more dogs to perpetuate the blood and gene pool. It's marketing your dogs for the right families waiting out there for their next pet. Where is this happening though? Closed dogs shows, closed purebreed events and private homes. Why are purebreed events not family fun days more often? Offer neuter classes so pet owners with pedigree dogs can have a bit of fun too. Because yes, they're dogs and they're FUN. We forgot THAT too. I love purebreed dogs, with all my heart there is nothing else I would want to own. But you cannot blame their dissapearence simply on animal liberation. Or on the councils. If you dont step up and make yourselves heard either then your voice will be lost. To win this you need to get people at their own marketing game, shout loudly about your own plight and positives and people will join. But sit here grumbling away to yourselves and you will be swept under the carpet. you're so right nekhbet. that is why i was disappointed that the ankc, vicdogs or even breed organisations (a poodle club would have REALLY been worthwhile) didn't rock up and have their stands on sunday, giving out fliers talking about why they're pups, dogs and members are opposed to puppy farming and why they are different and ethical.-also HOW to determine if a breeder is ethical and how to approach and find such breeders. how on earth do you expect ignorant joe blow public to find out and buy well bred pups from an ethical rigistered breeder if they don't know where to look? guys, we aren't trying to put you out of business, we're trying to say you need to push yourselves and your agenda (healthy, pedigree pups and dogs) into the public sphere. we want to catch the bad guys, as i'm sure you do, so we HAVE to work together or those left out in the codl may be the ones who didn't come to the discussions purely because their p.o.v wasn't included. if you want to shut up shop, fine. if you want to give up, fine. honestly, it already feels like you've given up on the public. even from outside the dog show world but within the animal industry it all feels very exclusive, so how are the ordinary families wanting quality pets going to feel? you pay your societies good money and you pay it for a good reason. they are not living up to your demands, they are failing you. we are saying that you can get involved in the process and ensure that pedigree dogs survive and flourish, that the recent bad attitude in the public can be turned around with positive and active involvement in society and the media. nobody on here likes working with animal lib, but the issue is real and they provide a whole lot of bodies, contacts and support to the cause. but we need more moderate reps to ensure that all side and facets of the dog world are represented and that the good breeders AREN'T thrown out with the bad. how will that happen if you won't even TRY to enter discussions? Well rather than being disapointed because you - someone who doesnt breed thinks they should have been there perhaps you could try to get educated and see why they werent there. No body here likes working with animal lib? the issue you see is as they present it. Well some of us here refuse to work with animal lib and there is a big bloody difference to entering discussions which by the way I do on a daily basis and showing up to make people think we support what they are asking as a solution - when we dont. Stand back a bit and ask different questions and you might just get different answers. You think you know what the problem is and what the solution is so of course everyone should race in with you and be seen to be standing with animal lib as they plot and plan to shut down breeders because you say we should run with the redneck animal rights loonies because they ahve a lot of bodies ,contacts and support to the cause ? Their cause ? Do youknow what they aim at? No one who has a clue would ever consider attending that rally and standing with animal lib as a viable opportunity to promote what we do.

This needs to be bolded, put in red and VERY large letters That's scarey . I wonder how the recent Victorian laws will also impact on this? I mean ..... is it possible the RSPCA can seize your dogs and then because some of the seized youngsters haven't been microchipped yet, can end up destroying them inside 48 hours. I haven't thought that one through yet but I think it is something to think about and determine the possibilities. the RSPCA can sieze your dogs and Put them down anyway. They can take your dog have it looked at by one of their vets put it down without you ever having the right to a second opinion or getting a look at the evidence with in the hour because before you blink the body is gone. Their story is that their vet said they were suffering too much to allow it to live. Try and complain about it and they tell you it will be sorted out in court. When you are found guilty you try to appeal and complain but then you just have sour grapes because you were found guilty. Go back and have a look at what the ex RSPCA vet said about Judy Gard - do you think she had much hope of getting her seized dogs back if it hadnt have gone the way it did without the Barraster getting in quickly? Not likely.

On whose part?

asal you're a crack up But what you say is true. I am a dog breeder - time I kicked the habit.

This is part of an email I recieved yesterday regarding Victoria. Providing I live in zones of rural residential or farming. I can own no more than five dogs unless I have an exceptional permit from council. I currently have one of these. In fact there is no limit on the number of dogs council can approve (as pets only - not breeding) but only on farm zone. Council says over five breeding bitches and I must register with them as a dog breeding business and hence come under the Victorian code of practice, get audited by council etc. Now, if I am an ANKC breeder, my council says I can own up to 10 breeding bitches ( dogs don't need to be registered at all - just the breeder) and council don't care if I am in the farming zone. That is, I dont need to be a reg bus with council and the code of practice does not apply. HOWEVER, the Department of Planning does care. So here state and council differ. While local govt says I am fine to be have 10 bitches on a farm as an ANKC person, State govt says I need a planning permit for more than five breeding bitches (!). So I am back to square one, ANKC or not. To get a planning permit I pay $500 to council, show plans, design, management etc. I then have to put a public notice at the front of my property for one month during which time the public can object. When they object (as the loony neighbour here did, slapping my family home on the front page of local rag and calling us puppy farmers - I am still suffering from major depression as a result of their terrorism over a 2 yr period) you must then go through VCAT. It took 8 months before our case was heard cos we r country. It then took 3 months to get the ruling. Which found in our favour.

Happening right now in queesnland another similar one I spoke with the breeder yesterday. Happening right now in Victoria - any more than 5 entire bitches council planning laws cut in. Happening right now in NSW a rescue who had ONE rescue dog on her property has been told she cant take another dog until she gets permits and laws for planning.

Happening right now. One person who owns 2 dogs in NSW - In NSW companion animals act says you can have as many on your premises as you like. This person happens to have a litter which is 6 weeks old and someone has complained. The breeder has been told by council she must remove the puppies from her premises and apply for a permit to operate a home business of breeding dogs before she can ever breed again. Chances that she will get this where she lives now council have recieved a complaint are slim but she will need to comply with whatever planning has in place in her shire for breeding dogs as a home based business. Rescue people in NSW can tell you the same story.