Steve

Do you mean an assistance dog or a therapy dog - big difference in the work they do and how they are trained Do you need a dog to be with you and hang out with and love you as you love it or do you need a dog that will pick things up for you turn on light switches ,take your washing out of the machine etc ?

Requiring that the breeder be registered with MDBA or ANKC or other breed club - means at least there is a code of ethics... I see a lot wrong with random breeding of lots of puppies with no health checks for profit. I see a lot wrong with paddocks full of puppy stalls and not enough human contact - maybe an exception for livestock guardian breeds. But after Oddball the movie - there's people wanting those for a home pet. So maybe even those puppies should get lots of diverse people experience. Requiring microchip details and limiting the price on mutts - goes some way to taking the profit out of it. A small step in the right direction if you ask me. There is the same laws for anyone breeding puppies whether they are registered or not - the codes of ethics only have those things which affect the club's dogs re pedigree registrations etc. Most state laws are more strict that most CC codes. If you really believe that all registered breeders do health checks and that none of them do random breedings primarily for profit might need to have a better look. .How they are kept,why they are bred,how much socialising etc etc is not the responsibility of the place,newspaper, website etc people can advertise on. Its a free market place and prices are determined by supply and demand - right now French Bulldog puppies are selling for up to $10,000 each and any buyer has a choice on getting a pup that comes with papers from a registered breeder or not. Some will be happy to pay without the papers and without the breeder being registered. My point is that consumers should be able to find the product of their choice without restriction. Some people want to own purebreds others want crossbreds, others dont care and others only want a rescue .Some dont mind having to wait and others cant wait ,some dont mind getting put through an inquisition by the breeder and some do . Its a free country and I dont believe its up to the advertising supplier to have to make decisions on whether someone who want to advertise their puppies for sale is asking a fair price or not - who determines that? Or whether the puppies come from one place or one breeder or another. At least the people who are advertising on these sites are being responsible for the sale and having contact with the buyers- is it better for them to dump them in rescue or pet shops?

All it takes is the tick of one box to be able to advertise puppies at any price you like on gum tree. There is no question re who you are registered with and no way for them to check anyway. Say yes to " are you a registered breeder " and there is no restriction. I dont believe it should be regulated anyway and cant see anything worng with someone advertising puppies and selling them for what ever price they want to put on them.

Yep I agree 100%

I dont think its a matter of time - people are complaining now. Fact is if you buy a breed of dog that has health issues and the breeder lets you know that its a something breed and these things are known to occur in the breed - that they cant guarantee it wont show and you still decide to buy it then you cant yell when it happens. This is even covered in codes of ethics and laws etc . truth in advertising and full disclosure. If a breeder were to say all that stuff about the breed is crap and you definitely want see any of that in your puppy they would deserve all they got when it showed. If the breeder said that it wouldn't happen and they will guarantee that and then they dont thats a whole new ball game . Right now you have breeders who guarantee against HD then when the pup gets HD they find all sorts of things that could have impacted on the pups outcome that they couldnt control eg that since the pup went home its been over fed and has been over weight for several months through its growing period etc The breeder cant determine whether the pup lives in a constant state of stress, if its over fed, under fed, fed a crap diet, over exercised or under exercised, over medicated or exposed to chemicals. How much the pup costs doesn't have any impact on whether a breeder can or should be expected to cover it regardless of whether the buyer thinks because its more expensive its a perfect being that wont get any issues. Right now you get breeders who pay up just to shut the buyer up because they are worried it will impact on their name etc - Setting the price has always been about supply and demand and thank God that most puppy buyers understand that they ARE buying a pet - a living being that no one has any real control over what comes next. I'm one of the people who hear these complaints - a couple a week and its my experience that the majority of people who want to take things further do so for reasons other than money.

I dont really want to get too involved in this as it really has all been done before. The breeder is covered as long as they have not made any crazy claims. Any breeder can guarantee that the animal is fit and healthy at time of sale and they can state that after a certain time they cant guarantee the animal will not get sick because what impacts on what comes next is beyond the seller's control. Its just not possible for anyone regardless of how many tests and checks they do to be able to be sure that a dog wont get sick or develop a problem including a genetic problem after it leaves the breeders care. Because registered breeders are guaranteeing things like HD and other things they cant control they are at much greater risk than a back yard breeder. When you are a registered ANKC breeder many people come to buy a puppy off you because they believe that by doing so they will get a pup that wont get sick - they have a higher expectation on avoidance of health problems due to the marketing that has been done about registered purebred puppies. This is why someone may go after a registered breeder to have their puppy repaired with expenses paid by the breeder but if they purchase it from a back yard breeder or a pet shop that they dont - because for them there is an implied warranty that the pup they buy will not develop health issues. If I do a DNA test for a known recessive disorder and I know that neither parent has the disease I can absolutely 100% guarantee that a buyer will not ever see that disease in their puppy but most genetic diseases are impacted by things beyond the breeders control after the puppy goes home. I cannot guarantee against recessive disease which I haven't tested for nor can I guarantee against any polygenic disease whether I can screen for it or not. Consumer law takes into account the nature of the product and the claims made by the seller and the get out of gaol free card is if it is beyond the breeders control. Recent case with the husky breeder who was found guilty was based on their false statements which were made to their buyers and the fact that they had not only concealed the fact that they had bred dogs which had already been known to have HD but they lied about it. and presented them selves as having dogs which didnt get it - wouldnt get it and even said they were the healthiest in the country If the breeder removes any possible implied warranty and says this is what I have done - so I can guarantee this...... but be aware this is a living creature and its life and health are impacted by environment, stress, diet, exercise, chemicals etc then it makes no difference if they are registered or not or breeding without testing.

They are not selling because someone made up a designer name - they are selling because there is a demand for them. There is a demand for them for numerous reasons - some of which has to do with little alternatives being offered when they want them and what they need to do to simply buy it and take it into their homes. Any one who has a product and offers it for sale has to give full disclosure on what their guarantee is and what the buyer can expect. If a breeder explains that anything that happens with the pup after 2 weeks post sale is beyond their control ,they are only saying what they can guarantee the pup wont get etc then thats all consumer law expects - the same as it is for your business - as long as you are clear about what it is you are selling and what you are able to guarantee then the buyer is getting what they pay for and what they accept as things which may go wrong beyond their control. Like it or not ANY breeder can breed a dog that is perfect at time of sale and due to things beyond their control something can go wrong.Its about fit for purpose at time of sale and the buyer having been given full disclosure if there is a fault or potential issue the breeder is aware of for the future.

My link I always have this on hand

It all depends on why you are using it. Its not as simple as - a couple of hours between puppies so give her a shot Its normal for bitches to take a rest during whelping and without the injection dogs can whelp puppies safely up to 36 hours after the first whelp is born. Fetuses require oxygen and attachment of the placenta to survive and giving oxy simply because its a long period between whelps can cause the placentas to detach .So you may get one or two pups being expelled quickly but the other puppies have a higher risk of dying from having fetal distress or asphyxia.If the bitch is resting and the puppies still inside her are paddling and kicking its much better to get out of the way and let nature do its job. Before you give a shot you should check that she has a ferguson reflex because oxy wont work if there is none. If there are contractions but they are weak this is an indication for use not just because its been longer than average between pups. Dont give it if there are no contractions or if there are hard contractions without producing a pup for a long period without ringing the vet and getting advice first. There are other management protocols to try before you start reaching for the oxy. Take her for a walk on a leash, really make her walk [up starirs , a bit of a jog etc] make sure she isnt being distracted or stressed ,turn out the lights, Allow the pups that have been born to nurse this stimulates natural production of the hormone. Stimulate the Ferguson reflex

As a breeder if I knew at the time of mating that he had died of cancer then I would do more research and it would only be part of what I would use to determine what mating I would choose but for me it's probably a red light. Cancer as well as other diseases which may have a genetic component can be affected by so many additive effects- genetically and environmentally which will never show up in DNA labs because its not about one gene. Disease such as PRA can be spotted via a lab because it's a simple recessive gene and all it needs is one gene from each parent to be affected but polygenic diseases such as some cancers and Hip Dysplasia etc need more knowledge of the health of all of the dogs in the pedigree because they are affected by additive effects. This effect is sometimes referred to as all or none threshold effects. This means that you have to have all of the variables lined up for a trait or disease to show up. If an animal is below threshold it will have no clinical signs because the threshold develops due to additive effects.Several genes influence a threshold trait butthe trait will not be expressed in a dog unless a critical number of genes is inherited. Genes have to come from both parents and not necessarily in equal numbers, since the trait will be expressed in a puppy if it happens to inherit any combination which gives it the critical number of genes needed to produce the trait.Then things not normally related to what the pup inherits can impact on the threshold too. To explain and keep it simple - lets say this cancer needs 10 undesirable genes to produce it. A puppy may get 3 from the sire and 7 from the Dam and it will show cancer because it reached the critical number of 10. This may also be influenced by other things such as exposure to chemicals the pup and his mother and grandmother may have been exposed to , diet of the pup his mum and his grandmother, the stress of his Mum and the environment he lives in and is raised in,hormones or the lack of them. It may be a one off thing that will never happen again it may be something that more than one pup in a litter turns up with but these things are a big challenge for breeders because dogs which don't have the same combination which takes them below the threshold for showing they have the disease cant be spotted and you cant determine and we can never know where the genes will fall and how they will combine or how all of the other variables come together in just the right combination. We can test and score and pray,study pedigrees and take out what appears to be risky dogs form the genepool but the reality is with living creatures there is always a chance that something will hit you when you didn't see it coming. Then of course you may have a dog that has a high threshold but will still get whacked because threshold is lowered by exposure to chemicals known - or not known to be carcinogenic. What I'm trying to say is if he is the only dog in the pedigree that has had cancer at a relatively old age I reckon there's no more to worry about as a dog owner with this dog than you would need to for any other dog. Relax love him and enjoy him. As a dog owner you can do some things to try to ensure those additive effects don't have a chance not just in that disease but any other threshold issue. Get educated on diet,exercise and chemicals,make sure he has a stress free environment and somewhere comfy to sleep and play and understand how it may affect his immune system and health- not because you are concerned about cancer but because its what is most likely help to prevent any problems.

http://thedogfatherdogtraining.com.au/ This one won Dog Trainer of the Year in the MDBA Dog Owners Choice Awards a couple of years ago, is an MDBA member and I have met him personally. We have had nothing but great stories and positive feedback about him.

I think he is better of where and as he is - the chances that someone nasty will hurt him is remote because he wont let them get close to him unless he knows them and already trusts them and why would anyone want to hurt him more than any other animal? He is living exactly as he is happiest - why poor boy? How would he be happier in rescue ? He is a guardian dog not a pet and clearly he thinks looking after the neighbourhood is his job - where is the harm? Chances of him getting run over are slim- he has managed to avoid it for a hell of a long time so far and just as a roo or a stray dog or a cat or even a child can be at risk jumping out in front of cars I don't see a greater risk for him. they are usually pretty smart road wise. No one who lives in the area is threatened by him or doesn't like him and I bet they are happy when they hear him bark at anything or anyone out of the ordinary . there is one in the states in similar situation that guards the whole town and they havent seen a Kyote for years. If your concerns are truly about what is best for the dog Id take the way he is living over being trapped and locked up and in unfamiliar company and circumstances. My oldest Maremma has been 17 and none have died of natural causes before their 15th birthday. Really? You are happy a dog is allowed, even encouraged to wander around causing near misses with traffic, never wormed, flead (as per the article cause people don't want to double up medications) etc. How totally irresponsible of you. I'd be curious if your opinion would change if it was a dog you'd bred. Would you still be happy for one of your dogs to live as Franklin does? Im not that happy for Franklin to be living as he does but based on the circumstances I cant see its as bad as people have thought and its being spoken about without due consideration of the breed and what the alternatives might bring. Of course I wouldnt be happy for one of my dogs to be living like this and its why I put so much into talking about boundaries,thinking hard about taking them for walks off property, training them to come and handling them and keeping them contained even if they work in a paddock.

Re bolded part: Curious to know what maremmas who have no contact with humans for weeks or months at a time eat. they usually set up auto feeding stations for them

well actually they have been bred to be less dependent on people and that is why they perform so well on huge properties where they have little or no contact with humans for weeks and in some cases months at a time. They are very well equipped to fend and think for themselves. How do I know he sees looking after the neighbourhood as part of his job? I dont need to ask him - Because he is a Maremma and if he didn't he wouldn't stay there - .because he has choices - perhaps happy wasnt the word to use - maybe content - dunno I just know there is a difference between a Maremma that appears to be at ease and one that wants out of where it is and is stressed and letting everyone know.So how do I know he is content because if he wasnt he would do what he needed to change it. At any given time he can stay put in one yard ,make friends with one family and make himself their dog etc He has the freedom to choose -could move off to the next town do pretty much whatever he wants and he has made the choice. Perhaps those speaking about him and telling his stories have motives for sharing their stories that are simply due to the way he makes them feel and he has done what he is bred to do - make those he is working with love him and trust him..Those videos are great to be advising on how to act around dogs which are in those working situations but this dog isnt bonded to one species or one person etc .He has accepted what is normal for the environment he is accustomed to as the breed is prone to do Of course its not an ideal situation but the alternative is in my opinion potentially less ideal and I'm with Andrea and Im happy that he is not seen as a threat , that he can stay in his own territory and people are looking out for him

I think he is better of where and as he is - the chances that someone nasty will hurt him is remote because he wont let them get close to him unless he knows them and already trusts them and why would anyone want to hurt him more than any other animal? He is living exactly as he is happiest - why poor boy? How would he be happier in rescue ? He is a guardian dog not a pet and clearly he thinks looking after the neighbourhood is his job - where is the harm? Chances of him getting run over are slim- he has managed to avoid it for a hell of a long time so far and just as a roo or a stray dog or a cat or even a child can be at risk jumping out in front of cars I don't see a greater risk for him. they are usually pretty smart road wise. No one who lives in the area is threatened by him or doesn't like him and I bet they are happy when they hear him bark at anything or anyone out of the ordinary . there is one in the states in similar situation that guards the whole town and they havent seen a Kyote for years. If your concerns are truly about what is best for the dog Id take the way he is living over being trapped and locked up and in unfamiliar company and circumstances. My oldest Maremma has been 17 and none have died of natural causes before their 15th birthday.

I'm not sure this Mareema will have any kind of a herd. I can't give advice about LGDs beyond the fact that they will roam and that they are still dogs. I do know that knowledgeable LGD people don't expect pups to cope on their own or to respect boundaries until they are older. If now is not a great time to add a pup to the family then all I can say is do the right thing by you and the pup and don't get it. I wouldn't trust an eight week old pup of ANY breed to stay within ring lock fencing by itself. It would be better off in the run with the Sharpei when you are not at home. They roam if they dont know their boundary. One of the biggest issues is people who take them as pets and take them off the property for walks - as they get older they think they need to protect everything in that area - prime example is the Maremma running wild in Canberra - there is another quite famous one which guards a whole town in Colarado and keeps it free of Kyotes. I sent one home once to people who wanted a dog for chickens - worked really well except the man of the house was a taxi driver and refused to put a gate up so at around 8 months the dog began trying to bail up traffic on the outside road of the property . In my case way back 20 years ago I had a girl who lived as part of the family- most of my others are in the paddock working with sheep or chickens. At around 10 months as I opened the gate to drive through to pick up the kids she would race ahead of the car to clear the front paddock of foxes or roos etc .I would drive after her across the paddock and drag her into the car and take her back put her behind the gate and start again - But as time went on I learned all I needed to do was turn around - the minute I looked like I was going back into the yard she would go ahead of me to make sure where I was heading was safe .So I pretended to walk back up the driveway - she would go ahead and I would shut the gate, These days I have sort of an airlock. open one gate, drive through - shut that gate and open the next gate so they cant go ahead to be sure Im safe. If the kids are walking they will go ahead in which ever direction the kids are walking - bringing them back is simply a case of turning around - calling them is often a waste of breath. If a pup knows what its job is and what species it supposed to be guarding then it's very rare for them to want to move too far away form the "family" unless they have been taken there previously. But at around 8 months they start to move away from the family a bit more and guard a wider perimeter. I placed one years ago which lived in suburbia in a cul de sac - every family that lived there loved it and spoke about how the dog would round up their toddlers and young kids and keep them off the streets It would take them home and sit with them until their Mum worked out they had escaped. Everyone adored him BUT at around 8 months he started to move out a little more each day and began trying to stop cars and strangers walking into the street and then the street that was at the end of their cul de sac - which they neighbours didn't seem to mind but the rest of the world didnt see the value at all. What Im trying to say is this - it has to know it's own boundary and its unlikely it will escape when it is really young if you enable it to work out where its supposed to stay and what it is supposed to live with but talk with the breeder be honest and tell them your situation and take their advice. If you were buying one of my puppies I would have some concerns which would need to be put at ease before I felt it was best for you and the dog for you to take one.

What work do you want the Maremma to do while you are at work?

You usually only have to use it for a short time until they get the message.

Rural fencing is usually enough - though sometimes you do get a houdini . Some use a yoke made from poly pipe = photos If you never let your puppy off your property there is less likely hood that they will try to escape When we place them on large properties the owners take the dogs around daily to let them know their boundary.If you take it for a walk then they think that everywhere you walk is their turf and part of what they need to guard.

You can keep them for a day or two in the fridge

You can use a yoke - stops them going over or under or through.

Over the years Ive seen some pretty rotten arguments regarding stud services . So - If someone wants to use my boys they pay for the service - the sex. Full stop.they are not paying for a litter or that it wont cost them money the breeder didn't expect! Money is paid before the service, if a mating isnt achieved the money is refunded less $200 for my effort . If there is a mating I sign the service certificate and the transaction is completed. If you don't have the money right then for the service you don't get one. If I want a pick puppy I pay for it just the same as any other puppy buyer. This business of the service including X amount of live puppies , pick puppy or money when the pups are sold etc is a mugs game where the breeder places all of the risk onto someone who isn't involved except to own the stud dog. Who is in fact doingthem a favour by allowing them the service in the first place. If there is no pregnancy etc that is the risk of the bitch's owner and if I consider another mating at a reduced cost or for free - that's because I'm a nice lady not because its part of the contract. My contract covers the service doesn't guarantee a pregnancy or that nothing will go wrong because the reality is that is all you can guarantee as a stud dog owner - that the dogs have sex all the rest is beyond your control and the risk of the breeder. Hardly the SDO fault if the bitch needs a C section, is exposed to chemicals, isn't fed correctly, isn't kept free of stress, and a million other variables.

Agree, the legislation doesn't allow them to keep dogs indefinitely unless its a dog that is being held waiting court decisions These dogs are not able to be placed in foster homes. If it is dogs which cant be moved out for foster or passed onto rescue and they are distressed then surely its better for a vet to prescribe drugs to help the dog cope' Management dont want dogs staying indefinitely - drugged or other wise - its not a profitable situation.

Victoria have some pretty well defined laws about what a pound can do This part of the code for pounds seems to say to me that if any animals are there which get drugged its because they are being held under legislative purposes - hard to believe that it is as has been reported - and any such medication is done under vet advice Usually only a vet is able to prescribe such medications and they aren't just handed out like lollies without that advice. Quote" At the conclusion of the statutory periodspecified in the Domestic Animals Act1994 for seized or surrendered animals,animals must be:• made available for rehoming to a newowner; or• euthanased because of disease,injury, behaviour, age, unsuitability forsale; or• placed in appropriate foster care andreturned at an appropriate date forrehoming; or• released under a written agreementto a person or body which operatesin accordance with the Act to carefor and dispose of the animal, at thediscretion of the operations manageror veterinary practitioner

With my Maremma absolutely definitely important .No point in having a working dog here if it isnt thebest of the best at doing what it needs to do. The beagles- definitely not. In fact the more drive a beagle has to scent the harder they are to live with as pets. In 40 years Ive never sold a beagle for hunting - would be a bit silly if thats what I was selecting for.