Steve

Before you can decide what is best for your dog you need to know the risk factor in your area and take into account how the dog lives. There is a greater risk for example of heartworm if it sleeps outside and is more likely to get bitten by mozzies .But even then it has to have certain conditions for a certain time to be able to incubate,you need to have the right female mozzies and infected dogs in your local area and if it lives with air conditioning which lowers the temperature so the worm lavae cant incubate. Look at this and consider whether there really is a risk in your area for your dog for heartworm. My link. External parasites - ticks fleas - from memory in your area is a pretty big risk but again you need to consider where the dog lives, where it goes, Eating a flea gives them flea tape worm and ticks are deadly. Consider how each product works some need to have the flea bite the dog for it to die,others kill the fleas and the eggs, some repel them. Tropical aeroguard or an essential oil spray can be used on the dog's feet legs and under carriage before it goes for a walk but again it depends on how you assess the risk factors in your area for your dog. No matter what you use you have to check daily if you have ticks in your area. Diatomaceous Earth [food grade] is great to get rid of intestinal parasites and fleas and ticks .I add this each day to my dogs [and my] food with some occasional wormwood. Cheap as and works better than anything Ive experimented with over the last 40 years .Used in your environment it wipes out fleas and ticks really efficiently and quickly too. My link I use natural things and stay away as much as I can from chemicals not because its cheaper but because for me it works better and keeps my dog's immune system healthy. As it turns out its also much cheaper. But the secret is do your own research for whats best for you and your dog in your area based on your variables - get educated. It pays off in saving money and your dog's health.

No assments have been made by them to see if he worthy of breeding with. They never spend time with him. He knows basic obedience but nothing more. I told the breeders that I wanted to show him as soon as he was old enough and they told me that they would have to take him to a relative of theirs to see if he is suitable. Unfortunately for me the only other registered breeder I know breeds whippets. To those more experienced, is this the norm? Like I said before, wouldn't a breeder want to have some measure that a dog is actually a good breeding prospect before using him to stud? Again it depends on what they are selecting for and how they are assessing him and what they are assessing him for.There could be a thousand reasons why even if he is absolutely horrible in one area why he would still be valued in another - they know whats behind him as well so know what he is likely capable of producing with a given bitch. There are so many variables for a breeder to have to take into account with any mating that nothing is normal for everyone. Just because one breeder may see something as necessary for using a stud dog another wont. Doesnt make either of them right or wrong. I spoke with a breeder yesterday who used a dog [ rare breed ] with an slightly undershot jaw and she could tell me exactly why even though he had a crook jaw she decided to use him - everything else she was trying to go after the dog passed with flying colours so she considered it a fair risk as the potential positive over rode the negatives and its relatively easy to select for because its something you can see. She had 9 puppies and one had a slight bite issue. She saved two for breeding that had everything else she was going after as well as good jaws and when she breeds them part of what she will be watching for is the jaw issue and will sell any with the problem that show in future as pets. This information along with all the rest is noted on the pedigree so anyone who comes behind for generations to come can see where the jaw issue was and assess the risks. If the breeder does what she says she will then its unlikely that it will show as an issue for the future and she has gained something she would have had to work on for years. You cant really know what dog is a good breeding prospect until you use him and see what he produces. What you see and think he will do isnt always so.

Ive seen all types of agreements - some give the dogs away other pay a discount ,one paid full price but got a pup out of the litter etc. Ive seen some go belly up and some of the best relationships broken over them even when they are in writing. One last week. Two breeders agree that a bitch will be leased to have a litter and that both will get a pup for breeding and sales for all puppies other than these two will be halved. Had it all in writing.everyone is excited - every one happy when the bitch has 12 puppies. So puppies are born and a male is kept by one breeder and a female by the other BUT the breeder who was responsible for selling the puppies sold another two puppies from the litter with breeding papers. Thats when it all went to hell. the first breeder expected but never said because she though it was common sense that she didnt want any more of her blood lines sold as breeding dogs this would put too many of that breeding out and she was hopping mad. second breeder said well I supplied a free stud service and whelped the puppies and paid all expenses and she never said I couldnt sell the others as breeding dogs - what's her problem anyway much more money for breeding dogs instead of pets so too bad she wins. So even though it was in writing that bit that was SO important to one breeder was never discussed or mentioned. This has caused a major war and its difficult to see that a 20 year friendship has much hope for the future.

That only works if those sort of things are even considered to be important at the time. There are probably a couple of dozen things that should have or could have been included - verbally or in writing but these people were mates and at the time. How often, how much notice, who would pay transport, who would pay vet bills, desexing food vetting etc etc wasnt considered .It was someone doing a mate a favour letting them have a dog cheap in return for a mate allowing them to use him at stud.

In this case having it in writing wouldnt have changed anything - there was an agreement, the buyer isnt denying that, which is legally binding - as legally binding as if it were written and they still want to bad mouth the breeder and make out they are being used and abused Do you think as breeders we dont strike dishonourable people even when we get it in writing?

Well if thats the way its going to go all the written evidence to show what the agreement was is right here .You can see that the OP had an agreement and now wants to change it. They havent denied making the agreement just not happy now the breeder has come to collect.

Then why tell the OP that it cant be upheld - that its not legally binding because it wasnt in writing? By the way even if it was in writing it probably wouldnt be legally binding for another reason but that doesn't justify just changing your mind. The OP knows what the deal was and now she wants to bad mouth them because they have the hide to ask to collect on their agreement. Just shot personal ethics and morals out the window and smooth crap on the breeder to justify the fact that you havent been true to your word. Sorry legal or not it sucks.

Yes, that would be for the best. Particularly in this day and age when so many people's word and handshake don't count for anything. And so many want to give advice for them to break the contract as if giving their word can be forgotten if it cant be proven in writing.

Completely different - not even nearly the same.

Are you sure about that? Contracts dont need to be in writing for them to be binding and your assumption that they needed to do so to show they were serious is ridiculous.

Since when did dogs become appliances instead of best friends? They didnt - best friends have sex and in my experience male dogs love to have sex.Cant see a washing machine getting a thrill out of that. Don't most breeders breed for money? No actually they dont and if you have a good paying job and money is no problem for you then you should have said no thanks to the discount and paid for a dog outright - then you wouldnt have to think of the poor thing suffering doing what comes naturally and dipping his wick!

Stud dogs are most fertile when they are young - The fact that he hasnt been used AT all yet makes your argument pretty weak. I thought you were upset because he was being used regularly not that this was the FIRST TIME!

I wondered the same thing. If you don't even refer to them by the correct name. I did wonder that too...but wasn't sure what the correct name was. Doesnt really matter .I get a couple of phone calls a day from people who want to talk to me about Maremmas - some breed them and some have owned them for a decade or more and they dont pronounce or spell the name correctly whether their experience is with registered ones or not. aIn that sense, no, it doesn't matter. My point was more that people are here spending time giving advice and I'm sure most of them are assuming the dogs in the OP are ANKC registered breeding animals, as they may well be, but Reading the OP there is nothing to indicate whether the animals in question are pedigree breeding animals or back yard bred animals that are barely the essence of staffy, or anything in between. I just reckon folks wouldn't be so keen to use their time advising byb is all. Makes no difference to me - its still a dog my advice or thoughts wouldn't change whether it was a mutt or a pedigree.

I wondered the same thing. If you don't even refer to them by the correct name. I did wonder that too...but wasn't sure what the correct name was. Doesnt really matter .I get a couple of phone calls a day from people who want to talk to me about Maremmas - some breed them and some have owned them for a decade or more and they dont pronounce or spell the name correctly whether their experience is with registered ones or not.

What were the terms you agreed to? "Dog available for stud services" is about the standard one for males. Why do you need to be ready to breed the dog? It's not like you're going to be expected to supervise the matings is it? Good people honour their obligations and don't gripe about them on social media. Sorry but that halo is slipping. Cowboy up, let the dog be used and talk about what the arrangement entails going forward. If health testing needs to be done, the breeder should be paying for it. Free stud services for the breeders dogs and 50% of the fee for outside bitches is pretty standard. No way would I put a dog out on breeders terms to "pet owners". This is what you get. Perhaps giving the dog back would be best. Sadly its not just "pet owners" that can become turncoats. For 35 years I bred dogs and never ever felt the need to have a written contract but things are different now - and part of my job is to deal with this type of thing - not that it matters much because when people change their mind whether its a written contract or not doesn't seem to stop them being unreasonable and causing everyone grief. The problem starts when what isnt said or written is used by either party to dig the heels in. In this case the breeder clearly thought selling a dog for a lessor price to someone they trusted and knew would give them the ability to use the dog for stud services indefinitely when they needed to and assumed that because that's what they thought that this would be what the buyer understood. They had a relationship with the buyer, trusted them and nothing to worry about . Now we see the buyer going "I didnt know I would need to allow them to use the dog indefinitely .I thought they meant only once or twice - its not fair" Is the breeder at fault for not being exact about the sale covering use of the stud dog indefinitely or the buyer for not clarifying what the terms meant before they took the dog? Both thought they knew what the deal was but both had different conclusions. Of course if the relationship is suffering and the buyer already feels used and abused and unappreciated due to other things they offered as a friend this is just another symptom of looking for everything you can to explain why its time to break up the friendship. So there was no written contract and at no time was a number discussed so the agreement stands at "because I sold the dog to you at a reduced price you agree to allow me to use the dog as a stud dog" If you didnt want it to be when ever they want you should have said once twice three times etc You didnt so - What do you loose by allowing them to use the dog? Nothing - you're not ready to breed the dog? Why - what could make you say that its not good timing for you - its over and done with .You dont have to be involved in the mating or the whelping or the sales . You think that you have now allowed your dog to make em back the discount so they owe you - wrong. Basic human nature is that when ever someone gives you a go its short lived and sooner or later you start to feel they owe you rather than the way you did when the deal was cut.

I will assume you are addressing me. If so you are assuming a huge amount, and you are assuming it all incorrectly. How is questioning you in a civil manner being nasty, I am not sure! Before I bow out lest I get accused of calling breeders bad again (where did I do that?) or being nasty let me just say that sometimes the breeder DOES do the wrong thing, and sometimes buyers DO get a raw deal. And, charging 3 times the price (although you initially said 5 times the price) for a breeding quality dog is a brave move considering things don't always work out as planned. Yes sometimes breeders do the wrong thing but in this case there was an agreement made with ample opportunity for her to back out .Whether it was a fair price according to people who couldnt have a hope of knowing all of the reasons or details isnt relevant.Deal was made. I would never take a dog on breeders terms and Ive never put one out on breeders terms .Ive always taken full price up front and if the buyer is successful with their breeding I buy a puppy or two from them but breeders terms is a common practice and every deal is different. PS Its common to charge 3 times the price but in some breeds it is 5 times the price - some advertised right now actually for MORE than 5 times the pet price.

I don't understand why you would be expected to pay full price if she is on breeders terms. Be thankful it is only one litter and I hope it all goes smoothly for her. As for the tent offer.. Breeding dogs without terms for this breed and several others is !0 to 15 thousand. Panlu has already stated they paid full price so no need to pull figures out of thin air! Thats not figures out of thin air - she paid full price for a pet puppy not full price for a breeding puppy. Oh, so according to you it costs an extra 12k for a breeding puppy? The breeders I have bought from charge the same for pets as they do for show/breeding dogs. Yes according to me some breeders charge about 3 times the price of a companion pup for a breeding pup with no terms. In fact I have witnessed this in the last few months. I dont quite understand why you want to be so nasty - just because you had one experience in one breed with one breeder doesn't mean that all breeds and all breeders do the same as yours did. Many breeders including ME charge more for a breeding dog You assumed that paying companion price of $3000 was the same price that the breeding dogs cost and there fore its a bad breeder - no necessarily so.

I don't understand why you would be expected to pay full price if she is on breeders terms. Be thankful it is only one litter and I hope it all goes smoothly for her. As for the tent offer.. Breeding dogs without terms for this breed and several others is !0 to 15 thousand. Panlu has already stated they paid full price so no need to pull figures out of thin air! Thats not figures out of thin air - she paid full price for a pet puppy not full price for a breeding puppy.

Kids dont keep on walking .Even when they are the best kids and the most well educated kids sometimes do stuff they shouldnt. If I want to have to watch out for where the dogs are to grab a screw driver Id rather not go.

You know I have to say that its bloody hard to please all of the people all of the time. You cant hope to make much of a dent in helping to improve a breed with only one or two dogs and a couple of litters now and then - unless there are hundreds of breeders all working together. Chances of that in a rare breed or more than a handful of any breed these days is remote, We don't want them kept in numbers at the breeders property because good grief "look how many dogs they have they must be puppy farming" but there is also those who want to beat up those who choose breeders terms in order to be able to do the right thing by the breed. If it were the breeder speaking of breaching the terms they had agreed to it would be a blood bath.

Depends on a heap of things including what the breeder is selecting for and how small the gene pool is - you dont have to show a bitch to know that she will bring something you want to your breeding program.

I don't understand why you would be expected to pay full price if she is on breeders terms. Be thankful it is only one litter and I hope it all goes smoothly for her. As for the tent offer.. Breeding dogs without terms for this breed and several others is !0 to 15 thousand.

Whats happening here is that you have gotten into a place where you are not happy with how things are and you are thinking through everything that might support your feelings. Just as we do when a marriage breaks up - you drag up things that you didnt think much of or gave the benefit of the doubt about to justify the feelings and circumstances. I would imagine that the breeder has offered for you to stay to allow you to go through the experience and care for the bitch because she understands you love her and are concerned about her .Believe me the breeder isn't offering for you to stay to "help" her because having the owner under her feet while she is doing what needs to be done is harder for her than being able to be left to get the job done. All of the things that go into having relative strangers camping in a tent using her facilities, being sociable to and probably feeding is an extra burden on the breeder . You have decided to see this as a negative to back up how you are feeling - at this point unless you stop and take a step back doesn't no matter what the breeder says or does you will see that as evidence she is horrible. You think its a slack breeder trying to get out of work so she will let you camp there for free labour as well as everything else you see she gets from the deal and I see it that she is being considerate to your feelings and has offered to allow you to stay if you want to. Did you really agree to buy the pup without being told what the price was before the invoice was issued. Not many breeders would keep the price secret until after the agreement was made to sell the pup to you and only tell you how much it was via invoice. More likely You knew it was a mistake at the time and what the breeder had told you the cost of the pup was prior to issue of the invoice. It didnt bother you at the time and you agreed to pay - and did pay the higher price so its another one of those things that you can say you were cheated on to back up how you feel about the situation now. The breeder gets to make decisions on when to take puppies off mum based on numerous things including breed characteristics and what other dogs she may have there which can socialise with the puppies etc. You were also well aware of his when you made the agreement as you have said the pup's mum was treated the same and you didn't see anything wrong with a pup being taken from its Mum at 4 weeks -if you thought it was detrimental to the pup again you wouldn't have bought it. The breeder has given you a pup which she wanted to breed with and entrusted its care and welfare to you so that when the time comes to have puppies the bitch is well cared for and in good condition. You determined that you wanted the pup and were prepared to accept the conditions that the breeder placed because at the time you were happy to comply with . She took more risk placing the pup with you than she would have if she had kept the dog on her property in control of all the variables that will impact on her when she whelps and not to have to worry about you being horrible when the time came for you to pay up. You can either keep finding things to be ticked off about and justify why the breeder sucks or give her the benefit of the doubt,assume she is trying to do the right thing by the dog, you and the breed and enjoy the whole thing and see it as something that is awesome for you and your girl to experience.

My dog took down a brown snake yesterday and I have to admit the hardest part in the whole process is not calling her off or distracting her - to trust her to do her job and look after me. Thats number 4 brown so far this season here. So when you use these collars what is the opposite reaction when they see a snake - what behaviour do you expect the dog to do ? Do they just get the hell away from it - stand still etc?