Steve

I agree what I think temperament is I cant imagine why anyone would think that could be impacted by environment or owners. For me its not behaviour or able to be trained in or out. Can you give me an example of something that purely cant be modified at all? I look at a horse which is a prey animal, and yet I see police horses resisting instincts. I have seen dogs that have been treated so harshly that they don't respond to anything anymore- so they have had their desire to survive taken out of them. I genuinely cant imagine any action by a dog that can not be modified in any way shape or form. Even an aggressive dog can be made 'more' aggressive by their environment. I watch a Maremma bitch who has never been trained to behave the way she does. A Ewe is lambing ,the bitch comes close and provides a windbreak ,helps clean up the placenta and when the ewe stands and allows the lamb to come in under her the bitch stands close and the the lamb comes in under her too allowing her scent to be imprinted on the lamb within minutes of its birth. If I separate her from the lambs she will quite sneakily find a way to get back to them.Everything about her when interacting with them is soft , kind, gentle - beautiful making them love her and rely on her. She will in an instant turn into a raging monster and protect them against any perceived threat to them - killing a predator if she has no choice. Any one who has ever tried to train one will know that its easy to do until those triggers are back in place.I can change the species of animal they are working with - replace it with humans but those base temperament - or is it behaviours or instincts issues which allow them to be able to do such a wonderful job are always there. I have once only ever had a Maremma bring a ball back for me and God knows Ive knocked myself out trying. They wont sleep in a kennel but prefer to sleep out in the weather with the sheep. I watch a beagle who just cant resist putting its nose down and following a scent - sure I can keep it on a lead, I can hold the lead high I can distract it , train it to the maximum level of obedience but always there is the risk that if you give it the chance its going to go. Lots of our beagles have got great grades in obedience over the years but not one of them has ever lost the base need to sometimes simply follow a scent and stubborn as hell when they are turned on too. Anyway as I said Im not sure what Im thinking temperament is what others see it as but I know I can turn those behaviours on or off or lessen them or see them less often if I select against them easier than I can by trying to train it out of them or alter it by how I raise them.

Well I think as breeders where dogs are concerned we should be asking how much is genetic - in fact I think its pretty stupid not to if you breed purebred dogs.

Very, very interesting study on tail chasing in dogs .... to everyone's surprise, I'd think.... found the factors associated with it, were non-genetic. Nor was it boredom. The associated cluster of environmental factors that tail chasing dogs have in common are fascinating to read about. Summary report in Psychology Today: http://www.psycholog...ase-their-tails Thats not quite right . They found SOME factors associated with it were non genetic and they still expect to find a genetic link. Which .... if you read my then edited post..... is exactly what I said. Oh Good = we agree then

I agree what I think temperament is I cant imagine why anyone would think that could be impacted by environment or owners. For me its not behaviour or able to be trained in or out.

Very, very interesting study on tail chasing in dogs .... to everyone's surprise, I'd think.... found the factors associated with it, were non-genetic. Nor was it boredom. The associated cluster of environmental factors that tail chasing dogs have in common are fascinating to read about. Summary report in Psychology Today: http://www.psycholog...ase-their-tails Thats not quite right . They found SOME factors associated with it were non genetic and they still expect to find a genetic link.

thanks Corvus - perhaps part of the answer lies in us talking together more and working together - numerous ways I can imagine that could happen .There are also many things that as a breeder I would like to see studied by scientists to enable breeders to make better choices.I guess that politics, fame and fortune will always impact too. In this case I see loads of stuff on people designing temperament tests and trying to determine via these assessments how reliable and accurate they are to predict behaviour in various situations or when the pup is older. Few get anywhere near looking at genetic possibilities re temperament , how selection impacts on predictability and reliability of assessments of what a pup's temperament will be etc ,not just between breeds but also between what breeders in a particular breed have focused on. Not that I need studies for me to believe that this a greater impact than anything else but some more studies would tidy it all up. Seriously I appreciate your input - its been great.

Its your dog and therefore thank God its still your choice . The main issue in making the decision which best suits you and your dog is being able to make an informed and educated choice. If were were talking about taking away the ability for a child to produce hormones in this manner we would expect that this would impact on their long term health, development and longevity .Some will decide its worth the risks in order to have the dog fit in with their family without too much inconvenience others wont but lets make it an educated choice rather than one biased by those who see reducing the ability for a dog to reproduce unwanted puppies as the only consideration. Not all owners of entire dogs are automatically irresponsible or stupid.

O.K. You asked. Well lots of us have actually documented ,methods and results and kept stats etc of the results of our choices in our breeding programs and differences in how we manage our breeding girls,puppies etc. Many of which are being repeated with the same results - some of us old birds have been doing this for a couple of decades. You see this is a puzzle.Lets look at Labs for a minute. Someone like Goddard - smart man - scientist - never bred a dog works out that you can select for certain traits in a guide dog [more specifically labs and goldens] and makes recommendations regarding selection and breeding programs for guide dogs. He tells us we can and should select for such things including temperament and and shows evidence as to how he has worked out this is possible - correlates some things related to suitability and ease of training to left handedness etc. Its a study by a professor sponsored by a uni probably costs a stack of money so its credible but surely its common knowledge- So what of someone like Dr Lesley Levins PHD Sc Ed who has been breeding Labs - mainly for guide dog work for around 30 plus years. I believe Sandgrubber has a Phd in something similar as well and breeds labs, there are at least two other Lab breeders Im aware of who have PHDS in NSW - what an untapped resource and why is it less credible because its coming from someone who breeds dogs,why would anyone think that at least some of the people who breed dogs don't approach it in a scientific manner ? Pauline Gill Tapua who is a well educated intelligent lady - selecting for working labs isn't just watching two dogs mate and doing the mechanics of producing a pup - she couldn't have the level of success she has had with her pups in such high demand for service and working labs if she didn't keep records and stats know the chances of her results being altered or repeated and making educated science based decisions on what comes next. When someone who is making puppies of one breed for a long time and knows the repeatable or avoidable results taking into account the variability of different environments and different owner impact says based on their data, studies and research of what they have produced they believe something is the case its not counted,even if they have documented their methodology, their results and conclusions which are being tested and repeated - because its just a breeder - not a scientific study done through a traditional educational institution. Then its a study so it must be right ,laws change, ideologies change, systems change based on the findings and conclusions even though another study in a couple of years shows it isn't right or there is a variable they forgot to include in the testing, which changes everything. One or two studies show its better for a pup to be put under stress , pushed and poked while its still a brand new baby even though the bitch works really hard to eliminate that influence if she has a choice so everyone starts pushing and poking all of their puppies instead of testing it themselves in case its different for their breed or the study has missed something re variables etc - and everyone who reads it tells us they know this stuff and we should do it because they read it in a study - how odd. One study will look at differences between pet shop puppies and breeder puppies and determine its about socialisation which a registered breeder gives to their puppies but it could just as easily be about the fact that one group of breeders is more likely to put more work into selecting the parents and less likely to sell their puppies to pet shops or it may be that people who buy puppies from pet shops are less likely to put the time and work needed into ensuring they have good manners or that it all works better when a dog is predictable and more able to be chosen to suit an owner's lifestyle, or it may be that its a breed or cross breed things skewing the data. The assumption is that registered breeders socialise their puppies more before they go home - so where is the study that proves that? Ill stop now but part of what I see is written and articulated breeder's individual breeding programs - its part of the criteria for entry into the MDBA Breeder membership and some of these are knock your socks off stuff - sure some are a basic as yet as the breeder is less experienced and less knowledgeable but some could be mistaken for a scientific study.Part of our aim is to teach them how to record their methods and keep stats and write up their results. Purebred breeders who aim to breed consistently well temperamented, healthy animals over generations cant have the same level of success if they don't approach it as if they are scientists recording and dissecting their own and other's data.

Too bad that breeders statistically significant results which are robust and repeatable couldn't be given more credibility then.

Yes. Shy-bold is considered one of the more robust traits, although technically it's a super-trait. Still, there are problems with it. Mostly revolving around the fact we have troubles standardising testing and still have no way to account for environment and training. If we collect enough data it can to some extent overwhelm those problems, but it doesn't really solve them, if you know what I mean. It just squishes them under the weight of the generalised concept of dog. With some fancy statistical models you can get some interesting correlations out, but at the end of the day you're still stuck with problems related to how you collected the data. Most of the time it has some subjective components. Sometimes it's very subjective. Which is not to say that there's nothing to it, just that it's very difficult to know what is going on. It's exceptionally complex stuff, but yes, if you breed shy dogs you'll get shy puppies. Yes, exactly. It's very, very hard to tease the influences apart. When I collected data on this I found that just about everything affected the expression of boldness. I would bet money on things I didn't collect data on also affecting it aside from just genetics. We need better measures. Well, yes and no. But within the field of animal personality, hardly anyone agrees with anyone else, so it's worse than most fields! The reason why agreement is kind of poor is that the data is collected in different ways and analysed in different ways and different data is collected in the first place. There's not much of a solid foundation to build on. The field is kind of still in this exploratory phase it's been in for, like, 30 years. People have been selectively breeding dogs for working positions for a long time, though. From what I can tell just by talking to them and from working with a few siblings, puppy raisers have a pretty huge impact even with litter mates that were both picked for advanced training as babies. It was quite fun comparing siblings and close relatives in advanced training. Lots of similarities, but at the end of the day it's the little details that make all the difference and the reason why one dog can make it while his litter brother does not. You're absolutely right and I think this attitude is very heartening to see in breeders. I feel for you, though, because at the end of the day I think breeders are stuck with a lot of guessing and hit and miss. You have to consider everything may have been genetic because in most cases you don't know what is and what isn't. No one does. That's all I'm trying to say. Thanks Corvus - part of the problem from a breeders perspective is that traditionally this sort of stuff hasn't been recorded and in some cases its been deliberately with held and lied about or in many cases not even considered to be worth mentioning.It certainly hasnt been considered as important as recording where the champions are - and its harder if you want to listen to the experts and outcross rather than breed lines you know and understand where the issues are. Wouldnt be so hard if you knew where the issues were in other people's lines but thats a hard ask. Hopefully this will get better because I do believe the majority of the answer lies in selection.

Geez you're a pretty good sort too!

no hope of stopping this they have pizza deliver drones now http://www.lfpress.com/2013/06/06/gillespie-look-up-the-sky-its-pizza-delivery-drone

O.K. But I think a shy dog is a shy dog ,you can add in environment and owner variables but if its a shy dog no matter what its still a shy dog especially noticeable when its under pressure. Breeds reach maturity and phases at different times so just because a pup doesn't show signs according to a human designed selection criteria which identifies them as being shy doesn't mean it wasn't always going to be shy when it reached maturity. If you don't want shy dogs then you have to select away from them or eventually every one will be shy - a little or a lot doesn't really matter if that's what you are selecting against. If its not shy no amount of environment or owner intervention will make it behave shyly. You cant breed dogs which are shy and expect that you wont get some shy puppies or grand puppies. If puppies which are coming back at 12 months and that many are failing apart from genetics, environment and owner impact couldn't it maybe just be the method or a criteria being used to assess them when they are young which needs to be challenged as well? Here's one thing I know for sure. There are a whole heap of well educated experts and hardly any of them from one discipline agrees with an expert from the other. Everything , every answer is reliant on the questions you ask. For example if you were to change the selection criteria for these working dog puppies and you got much better results in 12 months time it sort of makes the idea that its more reliant on environment or owner skills and training more questionable. if you concentrated more on lineage and how many dogs in the dog's ancestry have been successful working dogs rather than assessing them as puppies do you get more success with less impact showing from environment and owners? So as a breeder I have to take a hell of a long look at the adult dogs which Im considering breeding, I have to take note of what its ancestors did and behaved like and I have to take it all into consideration. If I want to breed dogs into the future which are capable of doing a particular job or filling a role -not frightened of its own shadow , shy or chewing its own tail off - even if that is as sitting on someone's lap and little else I cant make excuses and ignore ANYTHING or excuse it because the owner may have been a rat or Mum wasn't fed a good diet or it was exposed to less than perfect environmental variables.

We dont get that here so I hope it goes up on line somewhere too. Way to go Sheila!

Problem is that its not stuff like that which is put in as info for all who see in several generations time so you can determine if its learned or one off , environmental etc until you get to see it yourself over several generations. Breeders traditionally also don't keep those type of records.if I dont do something to ensure that people know that in that line of beagle which I have bred there is that particular behaviour anyone seeing it in a couple of generations has no clue that Ive experienced it before them and where to look for the patterns. In your case a dog which carries around a stuffed toy isnt usually recorded and passed on so you wouldnt know if its been there for generations or not - and what else it may be linked to etc .You will need to keep her offspring and breed enough litters to know if its a genetic thing but you may have known straight away if those things as well as whether she is a champion were recorded and passed on.

I think if you breed enough litters and watch over a couple of decades taking into account variables its pretty difficult not to put it squarely on genetics. I have one line of beagles in which the boys use a potty - that is I call it a potty now but when I first saw it about 6 generations ago I was calling it other things. The Male dog refused to poop on the ground .He always pooped in the water bowl. Took me ages to work out what to do about that .I tried all different types of water bowls and made them higher and higher until we got to a point where he would teeter on the fine rim of the bucket to drop his poop in. I gave up and worked out that the only way to manage it was to give him 2 bowls .One to drink out of one to poop in and every day I simply picked up his potty and emptied it .In 15 years I dont remember him ever pooping on the ground and if you took the pot away he would blow up before he would drop one on the ground. He sired several litters and his sons and grandsons and great grand sons and great great grandsons often turn up by about 6 months of age with the same habit. Now thats not learned behaviour because the boys have never met Toby or randy his son - or each other. ive certainly never trained them in anyway with it - if anything Ive tried to extinguish it. its not a breed thing because Ive had the breed for 37 years and the only time Ive seen it is in that line. different mothers, different places and environment that they were born into . Its not about me or how I raise them as even those he has sired where I don't own the bitch and I dont raise the litter will see a boy now and then who likes a pot to poop in.

http://www.northcountrygazette.org/2013/06/07/repeal_bsl/ VICTORIA, AUSTRALIA—Public outrage is growing in Australia (and indeed worldwide) over the law known as BSL, Breed Specific Legislation which is killing innocent dogs simply because of their appearance and their breed. In the Monash Council, a young dog named Kerser received a last minute stay of execution on Monday and in the Cardinia Council, although conceding they were wrong before the Supreme Court, the government refuses to voluntarily dismiss the death edict against a family dog named Rocket. Both dogs had been seized by the government and ordered destroyed simply because of a subjective decision that they “look” like a pit bull, a restricted breed. Under Victoria’s BSL, the council can seize any dog that they deem to be a restricted breed and unregistered, killing them if they determine they match the standard characteristics of the banned breed. Under a state law passed in September 2011, “dangerous dogs” are required to be registered, microchipped, spayed/neutered, and muzzled when in public. Councils were given the power to destroy dogs whose owners failed to comply. The law automatically deems as “dangerous,” the American Pit Bull Terrier, Fila Brasileiro, Japanese Tosa, Dogo Argentino and Presa Canarios. The RSPCA Austrialia, (Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals), an organization that promotes animal welfare, has publicly challenged BSL in a letter written June 7 to Peter Walsh, Minister for Agriculture and Food Security. A dog named Kerser is being housed at the RSPCA and was to have been euthanized on Monday at 5 p.m., the latest victim of breed specific legislation. Kerser was seized last December when he was just eight months old. Jade was given an hour to say her goodbyes to Kerser but miraculously, the Barristers Animal Welfare Panel intervened hours before Kerser was to be put down to help secure a 14-day stay, pending filing of appeal papers. The Panel has agreed to arrange counsel to conduct the appeal.His owner, Jade Applebee, had just moved into a new area and hadn’t had time to fence in her backyard. She got a knock on her door from an angry neighbor who gleefully told her that her prized baby Kerser was in the custody of the Monash Council because the neighbor had called the council’s animal control officers after finding Kerser in his backyard. Unbeknownst to Jade, there was a rotten board in the backyard fence which Kerser had found and escaped the yard. The dog had caused no damage, had not bitten anyone, he was simply exploring having just moved to the neighborhood. The ACO’s arbitrarily determined that Kerser, who Applebee says was sold to her as an American Staffordshire terrier, looks like a pit bull terrier, a breed banned in Victoria. They claimed that an inspection at the Burwood RSPCA pound had confirmed that Kerser was indeed a pit bull. Applebee, 27, said she was shocked. She said the dog has never shown any signs of aggression and she believed the dog to be as had been represented which is not a prohibited breed. She says the seizure occurred just 24 hours before she had planned to register Kerser as she had just moved into her new home in Mount Waverley three days previous. Kerser had been staying with a friend. Just a week previous to Kerser being seized, Monash Council had lost a similar BSL case at the Supreme Court level, a case on which they had expended $100,000 of taxpayers money to try and kill a dog because of its appearance. The first Supreme Court challenge against a restricted breed decision of VCAT resulted in two death decisions against dogs named Baby (Rapta) and Tia being set aside. The council was ordered to pay the $100,000 costs in hopes it would deter them from bringing similar actions but they did it again with Kerser, a case which has prompted international outage and demands for BSL to be destroyed rather than innocent family dogs. A petition to SAVE KERSER, ROCKET & MYLO FROM BEING EUTHANIZED had gathered over 44,000 signatures as of Friday. Mylo, an 11-year old child’s best friend, is yet another dog seized, deemed to be a restricted breed because of his appearance, who has been ordered to die. Mylo’s story is here: https://www.facebook.com/StopThemFromKillingMylo Kerser’s Facebook page is here: https://www.facebook.com/FreeKerser?fref=ts Rocket’s page is here: https://www.facebook.com/pages/Help-save-Rocket-Another-victim-of-Victorian-BSL/323124094447754?fref=ts It’s been over 15 months since Rocket’s owner, Arthur Kalamaras, has seen his beloved dog. He has only just recently learned where the dog is being held but he hasn’t been allowed to visit him.Rocket, a Staffordshire mix whose death verdict handed down by the Cardinia Council was vacated in December by the Supreme Court after the Council conceded defeat and was been granted a new hearing before a new administrative judge in the Victorian Civil and Administrative Tribunal (VCAT). Two days of hearings have just concluded with supporters optimistic that at the next hearing on June 13, Rocket will finally be freed. Rocket was seized last spring because based on his looks. During a severe storm last spring, part of fencing surrounding the backyard of the residence where Rocket lives blew down. Obviously scared by the storm, he got out of the backyard but he didn’t leave the property. He wasn’t running at large, he wasn’t on “public” property. He went and waited on his own front doorstep for his owners to come home. But someone saw Rocket patiently waiting and reporting the sweet, lovable innocent dog to the Cardinia Shire Council as being a loose dog. He’s since been under a death order, held in a secret location for the past 15 months. As with Kerser, there is no history of problems or complaints involving Rocket. His situation is a one time incident that occurred due to an act of God, a weather-related incident and even though loose, he never left his yard, he wasn’t “running at large” as falsely charged nor is he a restricted breed as inadmissible DNA testing has shown. The RSPCA letter to Minister Walsh follows: The Hon Peter Walsh MP Minister for Agriculture and Food Security Level 20 1 Spring Street MELBOURNE VIC 3000 By email to: [email protected]

Goddard has done some good stuff on this relating to selection of traits re guide dogs. He says selecting for guide dogs is about 0.44 genetic. If you're talking about what a dog does when its working under instinct /pressure such as when a drive cuts in that takes over all training and intervention such as the dog which cant resist following a scent or cant resist chasing the neighbour's cat ,how it will react to certain types of training better than another etc then I say that is genetic. Ive watched whilst puppies at 6 weeks have been vaccinated and microchipped 3 different breeds. Two litters stand and take it without much reaction the third - everyone of them tried to turn and have a go at the vet . My Maremma pups are under foot and by 5 weeks there are some which consistently want to drape themselves across your feet when you are sitting and others who consistently prefer to stay back and watch from a bit of a difference. If Im selecting a pup for a specific home pet or working those are the type of things I take into account when I am placing them and selecting which one I will keep for breeding. You would describe the temperament as being more amiable of one over the other way before any learned behaviour comes in. Some of my beagle pups by 7 weeks will literally head butt a concrete fence post as they are scenting and dont look up or notice anything else. I can train them to scent and trail by 8 weeks I do exercises with them to test that and all of them can be taught to find a glove with a scent on it etc but not all of them want to do it and stay focused .The ones which stay focused and want to scent are usually a bit more of a challenge to live with regardless of the training they are exposed to. That's the one that isnt as happy to stay snuggled up with the kids all day but prefers to be exploring the yard with its nose when its given the choice. I can and have altered the amount of that drive a pup is born with by my selection of the parents. So if thats what you are describing as temperament I reckon its 100% .

I'd still recommend pups be homed separately to eliminate the risk. It's all about pack hierarchy and when you have dogs identical in age, size (and even worse, gender) you don't have a clear hierarchy until one dog ends up on top. That may often make the other dog's life pretty damn ordinary if the "top" dog isn't secure in that position. Pack issues aside, I see way too many dogs totally co-dependent on a pack mate from whom they are never separated. It takes a lot of time and dedication to raise TWO pups. Quite a few people struggle to manage it well with one. And if homed as singles? Would crossbred dogs be more "acceptable" if bred and homed more carefully? Steve - in response to the littermate thing, the 2 of the same sex, or 2 of the same age... is there statistical proof that any of those combinations are any more likely to become an issue than any other combination of pets in a household? Or do you think it may more likely come down to the base temperament of each individual dog? (I tend to lean toward the latter, based on my own experience over the years) T. If there is any official stats I havent seen them Its difficult to find a more common denominator with this type of behavioural issue and whilst Im sure some dont have the problem for me as a breeder I believe its a big enough risk not to chance it. Page 86 of this link second column speaks a bit about breed differences for stages that dogs go through . Perhaps its about the fact that two from the same litter go through these stages at the same time and I suppose we can knock ourselves out trying to find the answers - for me the answer is you are never going to get two of my puppies at one time. My link

I dont believe its worth the risk. One of my big mistakes about 12 years ago as a breeder was to give in and go with a request for litter mates.I did this because the people who were taking them were experienced owners and had two beagles before - and beagles are pretty easy to get along with.They played by the advice and the rules where each was taken away from the other at various times for one on one and training etc and all went well. I got regular updates telling me how wonderful it was and there was no hint - not one- of a problem. Then when they we 18 months old it all changed. I recommended trainers and the owners went and did everything I could have asked them to do to no avail. Got so bad that they had to choose which one to send back to me and they couldnt choose so both came home. Perfect dogs, well trained , well mannered , no sign what ever of aggression but their dominancy issues in each other's company just out of the blue was horrible. Each went to a new home separately and the new owners have been happy living with perfect pets.They get on with other dogs without a problem - always have but each other - sheesh ! if someone had bet me money that beagles could behave like that I would have lost but no matter what , no matter what no one will ever again take two pups from me at the same time. Ive placed many 6 months apart and its a perfect life. So for me say what you will but its still not worth the risk. There are studies which tell us that different breeds face dominancy issues at different ages - Apparently some breeds sort it out almost as they are weaned so its sorted early and not revisited but others see it as an issue later when its a bigger deal for the humans who have to control it to live with it. Also as much as it s distressing for owners beagles can usually fight and no one ever really gets hurt but other breeds of course can do more damage and they are more persistent at keeping the fight going. Fact is a better owner doesn't always equal the dominancy issues can be sidestepped though some may be able to live with it better than others. Id rather not and Ive never known anyone ever have dominancy issues with beagles unless they are ltter mates or came in at the same time. Dominance issues are not necessarily the same as aggression and you cant always blame the owner.

if there is no substance in it then a lot of people have got it wrong - type in litter mate syndrome to google and I dont think its fair to say there is no substance to it - however some studies show that different breeds do this easier than others.Based on my experience I wont ever sell a pair of beagles together and I wouldnt do so for Maremmas which go to pet homes.

Most people already know its not a breed feature alone and thats why we are all against BSL but it is impacted a lot by selection for good temperament and the ability of the human to understand the requirements of the breed. There isn't any point in having a Maremma and a beagle and not understanding that each is different and requires different expectations and different considerations. You can have a human influence which is the same with each of them and no matter what you still get different results. You need different fencing and you need different training methods. In selecting stud stock animals the breeder has to take some things in some breeds more into consideration than they would if it were a different breed, they have to place them in different homes, they have to act as a support back up for the owners and the owners have to understand the purpose of the breed and how to manage it. Now you can interpret that to mean it is about the human but a human can have great success with a breed that's more sorted to their capabilities or their lifestyle. Ive met dogs which have been neglected and beaten to within an inch of their lives by humans and they are still placid and eager to please and Ive also met some who have been treated with care and respect and you cant trust em. Some humans can live with and deal with any dog or any breed others cant - some studies will say the human influence is most important others wont but it has to start with the genetics, selection and heritable traits first because it is this which dictates how the human must behave and deliver what the dog needs to be managed. If you are studying training and good manners its a human thing but thats not all you need to consider.

Note that YOU said " The findings put the trend towards developing aggressive behaviours squarely towards human factors. What the owners do (or not do)" It also says breed has little to do with a dog's aggressive behaviour compared with all the owner-dependant factors. So what is it - is it little to do with it or a lot to do with it and define little and lot . How much greater etc . Link the study dont just quote selected bits out of it and if you have to argue the point try to do so without getting personal and taking swipes. The facts is that these dogs came from an idiot breeder who probably didn't select for temperament, certainly didnt provide any advice or support in the first place, they went out in pairs to people who had no clue of what was required to manage one of the breed and live with the dogs. Goddard's research went the other way and points to it being about breeders selecting for good temperaments more than human influence after they go home.

Nup Im not buying that - much of it IS genetic and study or not I dont believe that the main impacts are about the owners. If we all believe that its not about breed or genetics what the hell are we doing knocking ourselves out for defending why would would selectively breed different breeds ?

No awards dinner for the 6th but definitely back bigger and better in melbourne in May next year for the 7th. By the way nominations for the 7th are now open link