MalteseLuna

There is a difference between a pedigree dog (which comes with papers) and a dog that looks like a purebred dog. I would posit that most dogs in pounds are not pedigree dogs if only because pedigree dogs make up a very small percentage of the dog population as a whole. Hence the nitpicking. Exactly!

Are you intending the dog to be a pet (i.e. inside with you/your family) or a livestock guardian/working dog? Personally if it was for a pet then no.

Often it's called winter nose - lots of dogs get this. My Maltese's nose goes brown in winter. Also common in old age. How old is Ammo?

I love the name Luna - but I'm biased as it's what I named my dog :D

Yes - there was a push from some of the conservation groups for that. :)

Thank you everyone I know she had a lovely life it's just so sad as of the two dogs we didn't think it would be Xin to go first. Nu-Nu the pug has had 2 life-threatening experiences in the last 2 years which she was very lucky to survive (mouldy sandwhich and paralysis tick).

Male dingoes in some climates have seasonal reproduction, but that's not found in temperate areas. I've never heard that the male season affecting the female season, more likely both are affected by the time of year, or resources available (ie. whether they are starving or not). Dogs are root-rats, they'll quite happily mate with a dingo bitch and yes many many many pups have been born from these matings and roam our land! edit - pretty sure there was a study where they took dingoes from the NT (where the males should be seasonal) and kept them down south somewhere, and they became fertile all year round, then kept some in central Aus in captivity and they remained seasonal. So it's a climate thing. From what I hear from the dingo conservation groups in NSW they seem to cycle once a year at a specific time i.e. seasonal. It's quite likely that dingoes were used or bred with Kelpies (atleast certain lines). But it is controversial, don't think anyone has really done any research on it. Yes there is some evidence of "dingoes" in the 1850-70's having brindling and dappling colours. This was reported in research by Professor Macintosh from Usyd. However it's not clear whether those might be the result of early hybridisation as dogs were certainly present in Australia by 1870 and probably fairly extensively spread. These colours are thought to be more modern than the split between dingoes/dogs, or so I think, so it's more likely they are from dog hybridisation. Saddle colour I've never seen reported as a "dingo-like" colour. Sabling yes i.e. a black "stripe" along the dorsal like the Fraser Island dingoes. There is strong evidence that black, black & tan, ginger and white are "real" colours as dingoes of these colours are described in reports either pre-european or very very early european colonisation i.e. 1788ish.

I'm sorry but Kangaroos should be able to feed on any patch of grass they want. This is the sentiment that really frustrates me... us humans need to co-exist with wild (native/indigenous) animals not exclude them for economic/financial gain. Anyway this is going off-topic, I think we have answered the original question. I'm out of here

Saliva? What DNA tests are done on a dog's saliva? Cheek swabs are a very common way of testing for a lot of things. Very easy to do and non invasive. I use saliva sometimes as the quality/quantity of the DNA is actually far superior to buccal swabs for research. Blood is better than either :) Personally I hate working with buccal swabs - often collected poorly or stored improperly before arriving in lab. Then if the DNA quality/quantity is poor often requires multiple repeats etc. Saliva would be a way better option - but the kits are much more expensive (i.e. $15 per collection kit). But I did wrongly say saliva when I meant buccal swab

Xin was my parents first dog when we moved to Australia, she was really more my dog until 2005 when I moved out of home (my parents wouldn't let me take her with me). As a pre-teen and teen she was my best friend and confident, she slept on my bed every night and followed me everywhere. She is what fostered my love of dogs. She passed away last night at the vet after a nearly 4 month struggle with heart and liver cancer, surprising because in July when she was diagnosed the vet told us it would be days. My parents made the difficult decision last night that it was her time to go after she seemed to be very uncomfortable and in pain (despite pain medications). She was emaciated from the cancer but still wagged her tail with her jaunty (but slower) walk to greet people at the door or ask for her dinner (6 times a day :laugh:). Run free Xinie. Here is a picture of Xin (the golden one) and Luna (my "own" dog) when I was looking after Xin a few years ago. Xin leaves behind Nu-Nu my parents Pug who will be very lonely having not been separated from Xin since 1998 when we got them both as puppies. The last few weeks as Xin has been deteriorating they have been spending all day cuddling together, something which in the past they wouldn't have done. Each preferring their own space.

Anybody can take the swab but unless taken by an authorised collector or a vet it won't be recognised officially. Also, as showdog pointed out, some tests are not able to be done in Australia due to patents owned by other labs. DNA seems very simple but it isn't always the case in reality, depending upon your breed/s. Yup am aware about the collection - still any vet can take blood or saliva and send it to a lab. I also know about the patent issues and the current monopoly in Australia. I said/meant that it should be easy given the technology. But then only for tests that are verified and not all breeds have tests available/verified. But if there are... what can the justification be to not preform testing? Hopefully AU government will overturn gene patents and then other labs can open. It's slightly annoying seeing a test that in all reality costs about $10-15 to preform costing $150 or more for the breeder/customer. Most of the tests are based on fairly simple technology by today's standards :) As a genetics major I am perhaps a little biased :)

She was wearing a collar with the names and numbers of her owners so if whoever took her was legitimately trying to find her owners then she should be home already, it's been a week. She is also chipped.

That is simply ridiculous. It's why A. there shouldn't be gene patents and B. there should be more than 1 lab in Australia offering genetic testing. If there are not the facilities for the health testing then they couldn't/shouldn't be made mandatory. DNA tests are completely different as anyone can take a blood or saliva sample and get it sent to a lab (by a vet) and it should be fairly inexpensive given the technology- particularly for a commercial lab.

I've never heard that before... I'm off to google scholar Wasn't able to find anything...

It depends on who's asking, and why they're asking. To an evolutionary biologist, a few thousand years is nothing. Because dingoes haven't been in Aus long enough to evolve in conjunction with the native marsupials it makes no sense to consider them native. When looking at questions of how the Australian native fauna arose and evolved, the dingo isn't part of that picture. But to an ecologist, dingoes have been here long enough to integrate into almost all of our ecosystems, and interact with other fauna in a significant way (by being our largest terrestrial predator). Many ecologists view dingoes as a substitute for our lost thylacine, in that it fulfils a similar ecological role, so talking about them as a native/naturalised part of our fauna does make sense.

Whenever someone asks me if dingoes are native I run from the room yelling "I'm not getting involved!!" Haha - I rarely get asked that specific question. I wasn't really commenting on my personal opinion but rather the legislative definitions and in-congruency etc :D

It confuses me as well. But if it was required I would like/want to see more labs offering testing. Also currently it is quite expensive for what are fairly simple genetic tests. Lots of profit for the company offering testing particularly as they hold most patent licensing in AU.

Interestingly many state governments define dingoes as indigenous (native) in legislation. Yet other legislations allow or require culling. Seems illogical/incongruent. Example - Fraser Island is a world heritage site and dingoes are classed as indigenous in QLD (and/or protected in "national parks") - also pure/intact populations are supposed to be conserved. Yet there is active culling on Fraser Island. Mainly for economic/human benefit.

Slightly off topic but interesting, these are the colours shibas are found in as well, right down to often shareing a black mask as pups :D Yup - but the coat colour genes are quite old so it doesn't mean much :p The more modern colours are brindling and patchy colours (including merle) which aren't often found in older breeds. Most dog breeds have small or defined colour patterns because of selective breeding. Sure but that doesn't really mean much :) Politics gets mixed in :) By many experts they are considered a wild dog, one that is not fully domesticated. rather a proto- or pre-domesticate. Thats an 'old' paper - there is a more recent paper by those authors/groups which re-estimated the arrival to between 4,000-18,000 years BP. In science there are no real "finite" results - new results come to light and change or evolve the current understandings. The nuclear paper which was cited before (VonHoldt et al 2010) again suggested dingoes are an "ancient" breed possibly diverging before true domestication too place. To me a major issue is a real scientific definition of wild vs feral or native vs introduced. It varies between publications/articles and there is no real consensus. Until we have that it all depends upon the experts opinion etc. To be honest it's beneficial for the AU government to consider dingoes as a feral - allows them to be culled vigorously to promote livestock. Interesting that most articles discussing culls always use "wild dog" rather than dingo. Removing dingoes poses serious issues to ecological functioning of australian ecosystems - they are the sole remaining top predator (and have been for 4000+ years).

Who are you to tell people what they can own though? Who are any of us to dictate what someone else should own. Most of the reasons we own animals are selfish ones, we rarely get a dog just for the dog, so why is it any different for dingoes? There is a difference between domesticated animals and un-domesticated animals. I don't know if anyone can really ever "own" a dingo - maybe "tolerated" :D I've not had many interactions though!

Sorry - I just got pedantic :D I hear the comment about "three sub-types" or "I've got an Alpine Dingo" alot! I know of Brad :) haven't met him as yet. I thought the papers coming from his PhD were very interesting! Their history with humans is interesting as well has how/when they may have gotten here and what role they fulfill (ecologically) now.

How sad!

Again - there is some evidence that suggests dingoes might not ever have been domesticated - particularly in the way we now use that word. Perhaps pre-domesticate would be a better word :) A feral to me is something that has been domesticated for generations and is then released. Dingoes have been wild/free-living in Australia for 4,000+ years (possibly up to 18,000 years) based on current published scientific research. Dingoes also have several morphological indicators suggestive of non-domesticated heritage including single yearly estrous and large carnassial/canine teeth. They (and NGSD) are also extremely flexible. They typically don't bark (although they can) but rather howl/yodel. They are not a typical domesticated dog - I would consider them something between the wolf and "domestic dog". Worth a note that wolves and dogs are all the same species, dogs are a sub-species of wolf. The broad types haven't been scientifically verified - that's anecdotal. There are several colours that pure dingoes can be - ginger (may have light sabling), white, black, black & tan. Often Ginger dogs have white markings (socks/tail tips). Any colour pattern such as brindled, sable saddle (i.e. GSD colour pattern), patchy are evidence of hybridisation. There are arguments for conservation breeding programs to exist, this is different from keeping them as pets, and this may well be important if any evidence of genetic or morphological subdivision is identified (as suggested by anecdotal evidence of 3 broad sub-types). But there are serious issues with conservation groups selecting for traits such as colour, hand-ability, temperament etc which may impact on the integrity of the captive dingo and thus breeding programs. Complex issue - no simple answers.

I disagree. They are decendened from domestic animals and came across to Australia together with man. They are not truly a "native animal"..and all dogs have the capacity to go 'wild' and feral. I have known many Dingo pet dogs here in Victoria over the years and they are no more difficult to train and own than many other "demanding' breeds. Truly, they are not for everyone and shouldn't be. But then neither is a German Shepherd, Basenji, Border Collie, or a Kelpie...... Okie dokie - incoming very long reply :D Nerd hat on :laugh: Dingoes aren't likely to be descended from "domestic animals" but rather from early or pre domesticated dogs. There is a degree of flexibility in the dating of dingo arrival BUT they have certainly been in Australia for ~4,000 years. In regards to what is a "native" animal - huge issue - there is really no solid "definition" of what a native animal is. Certainly dingoes play a hugely important role in ecological functioning as they are the sole remaining top level terrestrial predator (having replaced the Tassie Tiger and Devil). I personally consider them indigenous :) I would say they are descended from commensal animals that lived in association with man, but not they'd ever been what I would consider domesticated. I'm not saying dingoes can't be good pets, just that we have worked so hard for so long to breed the traits that work for us into dogs, so they make even bettter pets! Agree Weasels..just pointing out the misnomer that they are a native animal. Admittently they, like the Aboriginals have been here for a bloody long time. :) Commensal animals that lived in association with man...isn't that how ALL domestic dogs started? Domestic dogs have been subjects to generations of strong selective breeding - the suggestion Weasels is making is that dingoes may not have experienced much if any selective breeding. Perhaps pups were tamed and packs may have lived near humans but it's plausible that they were not domesticated in the sense your thinking. He was originally classified as dingo x acd but apparently some dingo experts thought that he looked like a pure Alpine dingo. No idea - I didn't think that there many pure dingos around anymore anyway ... Morphology is a very unreliable indicator of "purity" or genetic integrity. Unless he was tested (genetically) then it's likely he is a hybrid, particularly if he came from NSW or Vic. :laugh: the saddest part is that it's my day off work I guess nerding is something more difficult to escape Crossing does make things difficult, but the study looked at so many different genetic markers the over-riding signal should come through, the extra wolf DNA would increase the statistical error but I don't think it would adjust their position in the phylogenetic tree :) The paper - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20237475 The paper does make the point that backcrossing to wolves at a more modern time could have been responsible for the phylogenetic pattern. This seems likely given the breed history? Dingoes, NGSD and some of the south-east asian dogs also partitioned out with some of the asian wolves, making it plausible they backcrossed or were derived from asian wolves. (this was in another analysis they did). If the ad was in SA or QLD then it likely is illegal :) otherwise sadly not. Personally I think there should be controls on who can keep them as they are hardly your average "dog" and need a more committed and savvy owner. Also just a pointer - unless you see some evidence that the dog has been genetically tested it's quite possible it's not a dingo but rather a hybrid. Looks can be deceiving.

This is the best coat colour genetics webpage - written by one of the leading scientists studying canine coat colour (among other things). There are many genes that are yet to be identified. http://homepage.usask.ca/~schmutz/dogcolors.html Basically there are two types of colour pigment (phaeomelanin and eumelanin) and there are several genes which alter the colour of either of the pigments or the way the pigment is laid down in the coat (i.e. coat colour patterns like black with tan points or sable). Most of the "dilution" genes are yet to be genetically identified. Main genes are A locus (Agouti), E locus (MC1R), B locus (Tryp1) and K locus (CBD103). The interactions between these genes affects coat colour patterns of a dog. Some coat colours appear to be the same genetically but are phenotypically different in different breeds - likely a yet to be discovered modifier gene.