MalteseLuna

Yes - but really SNP Chips (Microarrays) aren't all that expensive (once you've designed them and if you buy bulk) plus you can run a number of samples per chip (if you do less SNPs). We can also do Multi-plex SNP genotyping as well (~60 at a time). I still can't believe that many disease tests are done by restriction digest paying $100 for that is just a joke when a simple and cheap SNP genotyping test is so much more concise. You perfectly sum up why the current breed tests are/might be flawed

Yep submitted on the 23rd! Thanks, it's been a long time coming :D Will probably start work next week doing some next gen sequecing Nice - I'm hoping to do some next gen work either end of this year or early next year That's so awesome though

Does that mean what I think it means - if so YAY congratulations!!!

Just pointing out that one of those companies is not Australian (i.e. doesn't operate under the same rules as far as I know) and the other only does parentage and DNA profiling - no disease tests listed. GTG owns the patents (meaning they have sole rights to use them in Australia) to many/most of the DNA tests (i.e. PRA, coat colour etc). This means that other labs cannot carry out the tests - GTG would/could sue the pants off you :D I just don't know if the current methods used by GTG would be accurate at determining between closely related breeds - remembering that some are only ~100-250 years old. If you found the right markers then you would be able to but this would take time and money - testing the reference populations, checking against other breeds to ensure you get accurate results etc. As weasels said - not cheap. Im not quite sure what the quoted cost your taking about is - not really sure why they would quote a cost per sample to develop a breed identification test... *shrug* Anyway back to "fun" science work no more procrastination :D

I personally wouldn't waste my money - I do not think that the test methods which these companies use currently are very accurate. They would be unlikely to stand up in court as Weasels has stated. I also wouldn't support the business ethics of GTG by purchasing a test off them - if I could help it. I think its shocking the amount of $$$ they charge for what are very simple ( & cheap to preform) tests. A real pity about gene patenting - hope it gets abolished. That could open up genetic testing to other labs and there might be fairer prices etc.

Thanks for the tips - I'll try them out soon!

I have a Maltese (and my parents have a Maltese/Shih Tzu cross). Both are lovely breeds but they are quite different in terms of coat, size/stature and temperament. Maltese have a single white silky coat. Shih Tzu's have a double coat (as I've read) that is abit less silky compared to a Maltese - they also come in many colours. Shih Tzus are a sturdier dog - more robust (think bigger boned) and are more substantial. They also have a flatter face. They are more like around 5-7 kgs. Maltese are a lighter/smaller dog, more "fragile". They have a more defined muzzle. They are around 2-4 kgs (mine is 2.5 kg). I've often heard Shih Tzus described as placid "chilled out" fellows, they are happy to be around you but don't need to be on your lap (and often prefer not to be). Not big barkers -unless they think there is something "strange" going on. Maltese are calm, playful, loving lap dogs. They (mine particularly) like to be with you and on you if possible ;) My Maltese loves cat toys (balls with bells especially) and can happily entertain herself with toys for hours - she throws them for herself, pounces on them etc. She does love to play with humans as well of course but if we are more in a quiet mood she will just snuggle on the sofa. She is currently sitting on my lap while I sit at my computer typing :D Maltese can be abit more "barky" but mine never barks unless the neighbors are doing something weird (like yelling at each other etc) - we just discourage her from barking and she knows not to (after some positive training etc as a puppy). She is not timid around people - she LOVES guests and thinks that all visitors are coming to see her. She also loves other dogs but can be timid after being chased and threatened by other dogs on quite a few occasions. I generally think of Maltese as more of a lap dog with perhaps a "softer" personality. They are intelligent and very trainable. Mine loves kids BUT given their small size I wouldn't recommend Maltese as a breed to keep with small children (they are simply too small and fragile imo). She does love to sit in their laps and soak up all the attention though they can't believe she has a pony tail (top knot) and my little cousin is just in love with her - she even tried to do her hair like my dogs (was very cute). I really think the most important thing about raising a small dog is socialization and training - the same as any dog but small dogs are more likely to be coddled and babied which can create issues (i.e. attack of the swf). I personally love both breeds but I will never be without a Maltese - love them!

Mine is quite low energy (i.e. spends most of the day sleeping) but she does like to go out for walks and play. That said she is tiny (2.5 kg) so she does tend to exercise herself in my backyard (and chasing our cat - playing). Of course it depends on the dog but a good breeder should be able to match the couple with a puppy of the right temperament. I asked for a lower energy puppy (not that the breed is high energy) because I lived in an apartment I think that I paid ~$700 for Luna and I think you can get a good quality Maltese from a registered breeder from ~$600-$1200. I've never had an issue with barking - all dogs bark - but if you encourage them to be quiet then it's not a problem. The main thing is training - if you let a puppy bark (as many small dog owners do) then the dog will bark (alot). I discouraged Luna from barking, praised her for being quiet and have never had an issue with barking. Most maltese that I have met aren't terribly yappy either They are a very smart breed, with a calm, loving, sweet and playful personality. They are the perfect size (for me) at ~2-3.5 KG. Mine just took herself to bed They are my heart breed - will always have a Maltse. My partner (who wasn't hugely into dogs before) agrees - Luna/Maltese are awesome!

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How about a Maltese - they have a very sweet loving nature, long coated breed, smaller than a CKCS and lower energy than a poodle. They are very trainable and smart but not quite as "go go go" as poodles or paps etc. Mine just loves to cuddle and is happy going for a walk, cuddling in bed or playing fetch in the backyard. How can you say no to this... or as a puppy... Another might be the Shih Tzu which are very laid back and placid - again lovely long coat.

Well "relatively" peacefully because that Male Baboon dragging the puppy was pretty horrific. I do agree that the clip doesn't really show a connection between the "kidnapping" (where the pup was dragged what looked like a relatively small distance from the litter/parents) and them actually raising the dogs to preform a "role" or being part of the family group. Perhaps I'm overly skeptical.

I'm skeptical... about whether the baboon really stole the dog and "raised it". It looked more like the dogs and baboons were sharing some space and that big male decided the pup was misbehaving or something. He did leave it alone after dragging it around and it was still "near" the other dogs. The dogs did have collars - they didn't look like GPS collars though (which generally look bigger - those I've seen). More to the story obviously!

Well I am trying to escape the evils of PCR failure (or DNA extraction failure) Or I'm "researching" ummmm dog stuff - right!

I think it says on the websites of these tests that they aren't recognised by anyone, you still need papers to have a purebred pedigree dog. It's just marketed as being for the owners' curiosity. Although one possible use I can think of is finding out if you have a breed susceptible to certain genetic problems, like ivermectin sensitivity jinx

It is determined by parentage (paperwork) only :D There are times where parents and puppies are profiled to prove parentage (mutliple sired litters) but beyond this no genetics is used (as far as I know). Really I don't think the "technology" is developed as yet - certainly not reliable enough nor accurate enough Especially when dealing with closely related breeds or very young breeds.

Steve, your an example of a good ethical responsible breeder who knows how to handle a larger number of dogs (20+) and knows that different breeds might have different requirements i.e. Maremmas vs Beagles ;) and knows your limits. There is still a large leap from 20 dogs (with seasonal increases when litters are on the ground) and 84 dogs (though this could be so high if there are litters on the ground)... of course there are more variables which should affect the ultimate judgment. It's funny my partner always gets annoyed at me doing just this - hypothesizing about what ifs or situations where I can never know the full story or truth. In the end we will never have the full story - whilst it's been a lively discussion - without more information we can't really make a valid judgment without making assumptions He could be a responsible ethical breeder with a large kennel that he maintains to a high standard or he could be a profit hungry puppy farming etc.... we shall never know ;)

You might notice that I was drawing my "comments" about raising dogs back to their evolution i.e. how they were developed. This means that some breeds might be different to others - but largely those bred to be PETS/companions were bred/developed to be kept in small human to dog ratios... it's just the way it is/was. I was not telling anyone a number or ratio - but rather using broad terms and my opinion. Please read the full post and don't jump to conclusions about what I was actually saying I am not saying the guy was a farmer or that people with large numbers of dogs are bad... I was just saying that to make comments about most dogs being happier in packs (like wolves) with little human interaction is not a valid comment concerning domesticated dog breeds. (perhaps there are some breeds i.e. livestock guardian breeds which might be but they are not as commonly kept in large scale breeding kennels... as far as I know...) Working dogs might be different - I said as much. ALL domestic dogs (this includes working dogs...) need to have human socialization to become good pets. Domestic dogs are better at being pets than other canines i.e. wolves which can be tamed but not really domesticated (as far as I have read/seen) because of their evolutionary/development history.

Would need to do some large scale blind tests to check reliability including both purebreds and crossbreeds (of varying generations) What's the the technology/markers being used (if it can be shared) - SNPS, microsats? I just can't believe the prices for what is a very straight forward test/assay that could be done for a fraction of the price/cost. Stupid gene patents!

Just to be clear I wasn't passing judgment on the guy - there is too little information to really make a valid judgment about the situation as many before have said. I mainly started posting to make some comments about the evolution of dogs and their relationships with humans to make the point that dogs (as we have them now) are a human construct that have been bred largely as pets (or to fulfill a specific function) and this has lead to a close bond between the two species. Drawing conclusions about dogs being "wild in packs" or happier in packs because wolves are is fundamentally flawed - humans have been playing with dogs for to long to be making statements about that. Yes dogs are related to wolves (closely) but we have shaped them for our lives - so that they exist in our lives to suit us however socialization is still immensely important to create a well rounded canine and I do think that all dogs should be socialized - even if they are breeding bitches - even more so if they are to be rearing pups which will be sold to families. I do dislike large (and small) breeding establishments that breed for pet shops and unfortunately the more the public hears about the evils of puppy farms the more large breeding kennels will be vilified (even if they are doing it "right")... it's just something people have to accept. I want to see less people sprouting nonsense about how evil inbreeding is or how purebred dogs are unhealthy... pretty hard when many of the unhealthy dogs are being bred by large profit hungry farming operations or the oblivious family down the road who just wants to "experience the miracle of birth"... sorry if i rambled abit without making a point - long day at work ;)

I think you have hit the nail on the head. :D I don't really think that is fair. A puppy farmer in most peoples eyes is someone who breeds large quantities of puppies without proper health/temperament screening for the purpose of making money. IMO quantity has nothing what-so-ever to do with someone being a puppy farmer. A puppy farmer is someone who's SOLE intention is to make money. If they breed one litter or a hundred is irrelevant - IMO it is the intention not the quantity. That is a valid comment and one that I would agree with generally but I do think there is a distinction between a backyard breeder which I would classify as a smaller scale breeder who is breeding just for money (and doesn't health or temperament test) and a larger scale "business" operation which breeds solely for a profit and doesn't do adequate health/temperament testing. Each is equally bad but at different scales. A larger scale operation is more likely to create "more" problems ie. more puppies dumped, more families affected etc sheerly because of the difference in scale.

Haha - I think I know who you might be ;) small world! It's true - they could probably do a more reliable breed test nowadays but it wouldn't be cost effective. I'm still not super confident that it would be reliable, there are some breeds which haven't been sampled (as far as I know) ;) Your right same deal with the breast cancer research and patenting the "genes", its so ridiculous.

I think you have hit the nail on the head. :D I don't really think that is fair. A puppy farmer in most peoples eyes is someone who breeds large quantities of puppies without proper health/temperament screening for the purpose of making money. Someone who is breeding at a larger scale but with adequate staff (to care for the dogs and enrich their lives) whilst doing health screening etc isn't a puppy farmer... if the sole purpose isn't "making money". There is a stigma attached to "making money" and breeding puppies - this is generally because breeding dogs properly isn't really profitable when you consider the time outlay, food costs, health testing costs etc. Perhaps this isn't correct - but this is the general "feeling" about breeding that most dog lovers get.

I would argue that dogs have not lived in "packs" as wild canines for a LONG time. Domestic dogs were "created" about 15,000 years ago. Since then they have had a very close relationship with humans. This relationship has deepened further in the last 2,000+ years as breeds were developed (via selective breeding etc) and yet again in the Victorian Era. Dogs are NOT wild animals and have not been for a very long time. They were developed by humans to preform certain functions - guarding stock, helping care for livestock, companions, hunting dogs etc etc. Dogs were developed to work closely with humans - this meant bonding between humans and dogs and largely humans would only have kept small numbers of dogs (after-all feeding too many animals would be costly - especially when food was scarce). Large scale operations are a relatively RECENT occurrence. They have gotten very popular for money-making schemes. Large kennels can only function properly if they are well-funded and have a large staff. This does not mean that all people with large numbers of dogs are "farmers" BUT rarely does someone do it well or properly. I would argue that for domestic dogs to function properly they need a close relationship with humans - from a young age - this means a low dog to human ratio. Even working dogs that might not be allowed inside will have a close bond with their owner - of should imo. This is the reason why I think dogs should be kept in smaller numbers. Lets look at why people keep dogs now - largely as pets. Pets need to be socialized for them to fit into our lives (which are rapidly becoming more urban). Unsocialised dogs get dumped because they don't make as good pets (most of the time). Many unsocialised dogs/puppies come from large scale operations that sell to pet shops or via the internet - they may be able to recover (i.e. socialised by the owner) but sometimes the up-bringing and lack of human contact at a young age has already limited the puppy/dog and it's temperament is compromised. (I wrote this quickly so some of it might not make sense...)

Seconded - Luci is a great dog trainer Or if your in the Eastern suburbs I liked the Bondi Junction Veterinary Clinic's one ;)

I personally wouldn't waste my money on such a DNA test. I work in the genetics field (involving canines) and from what I have seen it's just not possible to reliably type the breeds in a dog using the "test"or "technology" they are using. Personally it annoys me that the major animal genetics laboratory in Australia uses old and cheap techniques and yet charges massive amounts of money... yet a cheaper service cannot be offered by other labs because they own the gene "patent" ... hopefully that law will be overturned soon...