Tassie

Lots of foundation stuff you can be doing even with a pup - not sure how old your pupper is. Agility is a real teamwork sport, so any kind of relationship/trust/focus building stuff is good. I mentioned in another post that I'd just finished reading, and thoroughly enjoyed, Susan Garrett's book Shaping Success, about how she trained one of her dogs. Some great stuff in that. Have a look on the net too for puppy agility, agility foundation training etc. Greg Derrett has a great video on agility foundation training. There's a puppy training edition of Clean Run mag too - haven't got it, but all their other stuff is great. Key thing to remember - IMHO agility must be fun at least for the dog - and hopefully for you too. Take advice from the agility people at your club, but make sure yu are comfortable with what they are doing. Most people say pup shouldn't be jumping anything more than a couple of inches before growth plates have closed - age will vary depending on the breed of dog but you can do a lot of rear-end awareness stuff, stepping through poles etc. Pup also should not be weaving until pretty well full grown, as it can be too much for the developing spine.

Another in agreement with Sidoney. Keep the speed, and train the drive to the target at the point you want the dog to stop. Yes, the Contacts Clean Run edition is great to have. I've just read Susan Garrett's book Shaping Success - worth a look if yuo can get it - she's very hot on keeping the drive, but training the end first and then backchaining. I'm in the process of retraining a stopped contact on my very fast Border Collie. Wish I'd worked hard on the stop at the end in the early stages. Clicker is nice to mark that point - and I have to remind myself to be consistent in my criteria.

Here's a link Gift of the Growl to an article by Pat Miller which explains why it's important for a dog to growl, and why it's important for the owner to pay attention, and make the dog safe.

Erny - just want to send you best wishes at this scary time for you. While it is very scary, I think the way you set it out sums it up. At least you're not wandering around in the veterinary wilderness wondering what is wrong and what you can do for Kal. Sounds like you've got some clear directions and possibilities now - sure it might not work, but at least it sounds like it's worth a shot, and even if (heaven forbid) the worst happens, you will know that you did all you could for Kal. No one could have done more. Lots of good thoughts and positive vibes coming your way, and Kal's.

OK, I'll go first . I'm assuming you're meeaning walking on lead. I have 2 Border Collies, and on long walks I will use a walking belt (thank you Black Dog folks). For those sort of serious conditioning walks, I prefer the dogs to be in front of me, but not pulling, and preferably not zig-zagging. For mooching, I don't mind them at the front or at the side, as long as they're not pulling. They get a little bit of sniffing time - a bit more at the beginning of a walk, but they need to move on when I ask. When necessary, I expect them to come in close to me (like crowded sidewalks) - maybe both on the left, or one on each side - depends on the situation. I use the normal Black Dog smart leads, so nearly 6 feet long leads.

On the fruit thing - my problem is stopping my Border Collies picking and eating their own! My boy picked, brought in and ate 3 apples in a row the other night. And I learnt to keep my fruit bowl out of dog reach after my previous BC boy would steal, peel and eat bananas. The idea about sharing with your pup is a great way to start. Apples are good - maybe cut into thin slices or cubes. Bananas go down well (except they're not getting them at a gazillion dollars a kilo.) I guess you're just going to have to experiment - you'll get to eat lots of fruit. Even if pup spits the fruit out at first, keep trying - sometimes they just need to try for a bit longer. Are you allowed to give vegetables? My dogs run to the kitchen when they hear me with carrots - they love them, as do a lot of dogs. Green peas are a hit too (mine eat them frozen or frozen/cooked). I wouldn't have thought of trying that until I saw a friend using them as training treats for her little German Spitz. Good luck.

I use a variety of treats cut up small. Current favourites are nuked hot dogs - quartered lengthwise and then cut up into pea sized pieces, and a tasty low fat coon cheese also cut in small pieces. When you want a high rate of reinforcement (lots of treats in a short time - e.g when the dog is learning something new) something soft and small is better than anything larger or chewy or crunchy. Those things take the dog too long to eat I find chicken too messy - end up dropping bits - bad scene! Just a thought - especially on the dog running past you issue - it's worth adding some sort of tug-toy to your motivator toolbox. Soft tug toys like Periau makes are great. Teach the dog to play tuggy on your command, and then release on your command (reward the let-go with a treat.) You can then use the tuggy as a reward for the dog coming to you- - in an informal situation. Oh, and I've seen dogs work happily for frozen peas - mine actually like them too - but I'd be worried about them as a choking hazard if your dog is fast to take his treat. As others have said, it's good to have a range of motivators and rewards, both to prevent staleness, but also so that higher value rewards can be given to assist new learning, or transferring learning to more distracting environments.

Hey - biggg congratulations to you and Sparty (and Bodie)! That's really great. Barb

IMHO, different ways work for different dogs. What worked pretty well for one of my Border Collies is just not working for the other one. (I'm still experimenting with him!) Here’s a couple of links that may help with alternative ways. Robert Loftus Variety of weave teaching And here’s one on proofing – for when you’ve got the whole weaving thing going! Weaves without worry Barb

Oh Jodie - I'm sorry to read that. And you're right - it is hard to know when some dogs are in pain - I can imagine Staffies would be very reluctant to show pain. I had an old Kelpie/Collie bitch that was the same. I guess you just have to trust your gut and the vet. Let's hope this is a temporary set-back. Give the Ollie dog a pat and a massage from Tasmania. Thinking strong thoughts for you. Barb

Thanks Henrynchlo - yes, that's what I meant. In other words, I'm suggesting that she shouldn't be corrected at all for growling - not even with a 'no'. Her growling is a way of communicating her discomfort and stress. IMHO, it's then the owner/leader's job to respect that, and remove the dog from the stressful situation. Stepping in front of the dog as you turn to go in a different direction is one way of doing that. The stepping in front says "Yep- not a problem - I'll put myself between you and the worrying thing/person. Now let's go do something nice". Great - it's really important in building her confidence that you let her know when she's right - every time. Each little success builds up her confidence. Kkiesel, I just wanted to say that I think it's great that you're paying attention to what your pup is telling you about how she feels, and that you're looking to get professional help for her. It sounds as though Dr Debbie Calnon is a great recommendation. We can't see your dog, so we're going on your descriptions, and what we're suggesting are things you can do in the meantime that might help, and shouldn't hurt. Your girl may never be a totally confident party animal or social butterfly, but there are some nervous Border Collies out there who can overcome their fears to the extent of enjoying performance sports, and just ignoring the people they don't want to meet. It may be for your girl that being your OH's truck dog might not be an appropriate future for her - but who knows. Do let us know how you get on. Barb (Edited to fix typos - I should learn to proofread before I post!)

Hi - I can't help with a behaviourist recommendation - though I do think it's a good idea, provided that you're very careful to get one who is properly trained, and one who has experience with Border Collies. These dogs IMHO, may need a different approach from some other breeds, as they tend to be very soft and sensitive dogs, which do not do well with harsh methods. In the meantime, my suggestions would be to proceed very carefully - protecting your dog from stress at all times - especially since she may well be going through an age-related fear period in addition to any underlying issues she may have. Don't baby her - just make sure she feels safe. Don't allow strangers or anyone you're not totally comfortable with to get into the dog's discomfort zone. Really reward any occasion - like at the vet's (yay) - where she shows she is comfortable, but basically ignore other behaviours while taking her to a safe distance. Reward for looking at you in situations where she is feeling discomfort. And please - treasure and respect the growl. She's a very good girl for indicating to you in that way that she's uncomfortable. Listen to her, take her to a distance from the 'scary' person where you can feel her relax, and do some simple training with her, to show her that you respect her feelings and that you are in control of the situation and will keep her safe. The very LAST thing you want to do is to teach her not to growl - because her next step could be to bite without growling first. Hope others can help some more. Barb (the other Kirra's mum)

I too am sorry you're facing this horrible decision. In addition to what others have written, one wise piece of advice that I was given is to consider whether the bad days are outweighing the good days. One of the really hard things, I think, is that there really is no 'right' time for a dog which is gradually failing - though IMHO, too soon (from our point of view) is probably better than too late (from the dog's point of view). Sending good thoughts your way. Barb

I might have missed something about foods Ollie may be allergic to - but I'd think of trying roo mince, or chicken mince, or maybe kibble soaked in chicken stock. Do hope you can find something your little man will enjoy. Barb

I echo - oh bugger! I guess it's sort of good news - but as you say, gets you no closer to making poor Kal feel better. On the throwing up thing - my rule of thumb is - if they eat it up again, it's less of a worry than if they don't. But it's just as well we love them, isn't it. Barb

Hey Erny - fingers crossed for you and Kal on Tuesday here too. It does sound like you have finally found a vet who is prepared to treat you as an intelligent person who is seeking to become better informed for the sake of the dog. That must be rally encouraging. Barb

This http://www.apvma.gov.au/chemrev/fipronil.pdf is an expanded version. It includes the folowing statement which puts the reported adverse reactions into proportion. Quick search of the site didn't produce any reference to a final report - but I guess the fact that the product is still registered now indicates that they didn't see an urgent issue. No advocacy here either way - just in the interests of balance. Barb

Great news! You must be so relieved! Thanks for the update. Barb

Erny Barb

Yes, I opt out of weaving through dogs and similar really close up exercises, as it's too overwhelming and confronting for my rather anxious boy. I just quietly say to the instructor - "Do you mind if I don't do this one". No problems for that. As he's got to know the dogs in his class better, he is able to cope with a little mor of the close up stuff, but I try to keep within his comfort zone. Barb

What the others have said! It's worth mentioning it to your instructor too. Yes, you do have to do whatever you can to protect your dog from interference, so that you and he can learn and enjoy learning. And the other owners need to learn (preferably from the instructor - but if not, then from you) that they need to pay attention to where their dogs are and what they are doing, and not let their dogs get in another dog's space without asking the owner first. We teach that in Puppy 101 and we keep on teaching it. (I should add that I feel very strongly about this, having had a Border Collie with a large personal space for dogs he didn't know!) Barb

Oh, poor little thing. And poor you. It's a worry. My previous Border Collie boy developed an abscess on his spine after injuring his neck. (Running one way and looking another, I think - I wasn't home when it happened.) The original injury seemed to clear up, but then a little while later, he was sore and poorly again, with temp. this time, and the abscess was diagnosed. The good news was that antibiotics fixed him up with no further problems. Hope your girl's problem is as easily fixed. Barb

Ok, sorry - I misunderstood what you were trying to achieve at this stage. I'd still think 10 minutes is a bit too long at her age - could you break it up a bit? Have a few very short sessions several times a day. Not trying to be rude here - just trying to clarify your situation. Am I correct in thinking you're going to have to do everything with hand signals with this dog - that is, you're unable to do verbals? If that's right, then I can see the training is going to be much harder than if you can give verbals. On the other hand, since dogs are body language specialists first and foremost, you can probably develop some special hand/body movements that she will find rewarding. Most dogs love hand-clapping - they seem to know it's pretty special - and I guess we're usually happy when we do it. As far as the attention goes, I'd probably be 'free-shaping' that as well as cueing it. Whenever she looks at you, whether you prompted it or not, click and reward her - any way you like - and then give her a release signal - do you have one? If not, I think I'd be trying to introduce one - that says - you can go be a dog again. You should be able to gradually build up the length of time she will hold the focus on you before she gets the click/reward. Oh, I just thought of something I'm doing with my boy that you might be able to do. When he's sitting in front of me, I hold treats in each hand - and clicker in one hand as well. He of course sniffs, licks the nads - but gets nothing until he looks at me - with his nose away from the hands - then click/treat. I'm gradually asking for longer attention on me and away from the treats before he gets the click/treat. You could do this sitting down, I should think. Barb

A couple of things occur to me here. I can see your 'hands full' problem with the cane, leash etc. - just not sure how any other reward (other than genuine verbal praise) is going to be easier to deliver in that situation. (Maybe you need to look at K9 Force's training in 'pack drive' - I'm not sure I really understand training in drive, but pack drive would seem to be what you can work with in that situation.) Teaching the "leave it" is valuable for the food (cat etc,) obsessed dog - again, can be reinforced however you want to. But, I'm getting a bit alarmed here - am I reading your post correctly, and Flossie is still only just over 3 months old? She is still a baby - so maybe you're expecting too much too soon. IMHO if you don't give her time and leeway to be a baby and to grow up at her own pace, more or less, you're creating a potentially stressful situation for both of you. And there's no doubt that stress - on either side - interferes with learning. Don't forget that this early stage is easy compared with the challenges of training with a 'teenager'. There's a good reason why guide dogs get "puppy-walked" for a year - they don't have the mental or emotional maturity for their really serious training until then. Barb

FWIW here's what I just posted on the liquid ivermectin thread: I-Rex, while it's true that some dogs do carry the gene that makes them sensitive to ivermectin type drugs, so far, no Border Collies in the American testing have been found to have the mutation. There have been Border Collie deaths and adverse reactions, but it seems that they have come from inaccurate dosing with oral ivermectin intended for large animals. The several vets I have spoken to about this have no problems with giving Heartgard tablets to Border Collies - provided you have the correct dosage. That said, I personally would be wary of using the injections - but that's just me being cautious. Here drug sensitivity gene link is a link on the work done in the US. And apparently the sensitivity is to all the avermectin type drugs, not just ivermectin. Barb ACK! I jsut did a copy/paste, and of course the url link didn't come over properly. It's on the other thread, anyway.