Bindii

which is why I said You never said they were cruel, but it was suggested (not by you) that they inflicted pain - which is cruel. Discomfort - as we have a greed - is caused, but is also caused by other training tools, to which extent depends on the individual dog. Yes, I do walk them on flat collars, with the exception of Micha who has to be walked on a martingale for safety reasons as he can slip flat collars. I have no problem with people using tools, I have used them myself and totally agree they are sometimes necessary, but I do think that they should be used as a tool, not as a training method, and that the goal should be eventually not having to use them. Putting a head collar on your dog and using it as a replacement for actually training your dog is lazy, IMO, and can back fire if the dog learns to pull on the tool anyway. Head collars, if being used properly, will be used along with a good training program. So this discussion, in particular your opinion, is not unique to haltis... you feel this about all training tools? Whether that be chains, martingales or the somewhat infamous halti? Then great! I think now that I know that I'm happier. I think that it is a very fair opinion and I completely see where you are coming from. ETA: but i can see how for a pet owner, if they see and feel that the dog is happy being walked with whatever tool then i personally don't see the issue. But that is JMHO in the same way it's JYHO that it's lazy.

I think how aversive the dog finds a particular tool is dependent on the dog, and if the tool is appropriate for them, and if it's being used correctly etc etc. For Micha, a head collar was way more aversive for him than a martingale. I wouldn't use a head collar the same way I would use a (for eg) martingale, so I disagree that the method is the same Micha didn't like it over his nose, but others that don't care about it over their noses have continued to walk well, happy and relaxed as they have learnt not to pull. Micha never got to that stage so it was only a 'scary' or 'weird' thing for him. Perhaps he has a slightly softer temperament, or a slightly more sensitive nose than those who have had success with it. Whatever the reason, of course you should not use it on Micha! And no one is saying you should. What if he had had a similar reaction to the noise of the chain on a martingale? I'm sure it happens. Do you think it's right that the owners of those dogs then go and say how cruel it is to have a chain on a dog as it causes them discomfort? We really are going around in circles :D Because it's a crutch, and what happens if you don't have the head collar one day and are required to walk the dog without one? Because IMO it's fairer to the dog to actually teach them not to pull, which is not being done if you are forever reliant on a tool like a head collar to walk them on. It's easier in the long run to have a dog who understands that pulling will not get them where they want to go. Suzanne Clothier put it far more eloquently than I did So do you walk your dogs on a flat collar now? Or better still, how about we all walk our dogs down the street without a lead or collar, because ultimately, they should have been taught to walk by our sides by now!

I had never heard of this... but i guess it makes sense Please don't do this, Fletcher!!

*In the same way a check chain or halti works for many dog owners. These are the dogs you must do something else for. I think we're actually agreeing and have been the whole time If it works for the dog, let them use it. The only thing i don't agree with is pain/discomfort being any more than that of other tools such as a check or martingale - because the discomfort is only there until the dog works out how to stop it, the method works the same regardless of which you use. I also disagree that you have to stop using it after a while even if it's working perfectly fine, even if the dog seems comfortable, if it doesn't pull, and if you have no plans to ever need your dog to walk well without a lead (such as obedience trialing etc) No one's explained that one fully

True but there are far worse/more annoying things to deal with than a dog that pulls on it's lead.* I don't care if a dog pulls while it's in our clinic and i'm moving it from our hospital back to it's owner etc, but i feel for them if it does that all the time at home, while they are walking it. If the owner has control of the dog or has their own method that works for them, then *such as being cage aggressive/not crate trained resulting in barking and other annoying habits (my own pug!!)

Am i missing something? The discomfort occurs when the dog pulls, not when it is walking nicely beside it's owner... So the dog puts two and two together and it doesn't pull = no more discomfort. No one is disputing that it may not be the right tool for all dogs, but if the dog *does* walk nicely beside it's owner when the halti is on, then there is no discomfort. It has become a learned behaviour that halti on = don't pull. Halti off, no discomfort when pulling = pull! Who cares what happens when they don't have it off... why must it only be a temporary tool if the dog is comfortable with it on? HappyPaws, I thought the exact same thing when i first joined this forum... Until i realised it's just a whole lot of crazy dog ladies (and a couple of guys ) who really care, and have really strong feelings and opinions on dog ownership/breeding/showing/etc etc. I *agree* that sometimes comments sound very pushy etc etc, but i know Huski from her posts and she's alright i promise. (even though i think we almost completely disagree on this one) ETA: back to the topic of haltis etc... How is it different from a check chain? would you like your it jerked and pulled around your neck? That is discomfort too. So the dog learns when it is wearing that collar not to pull. I know myself that my pug walks like an idiot with a flat collar on, but he sees the martingale being put on and he knows not to pull because of a combination of the noise of the chain and the discomfort he feels when i 'correct' him. I see that in no way different to a halti *if the dog learns not to continue pulling*

I was sitting here reading this, getting frustrated at how OT this is getting, but i can't let this one go ... It doesn't conflict pain, it's annoying to the dog that it can't look forward when it walks in front, so the dog realises if it walks by the owners side they can look straight in front. That's how it works. A clever dog will not keep pulling because it would prefer to have it's eyes the direction it is going. I can understand that some dogs might never adjust to the feeling of it around their muzzle and that some may just be so determined to pull that it just freaks them out all together, but if it works for the dog, why not? Not every dog owner wants to have an obedience titled dog, they just want to enjoy a walk with their pet and if everyone (including the dog) is relaxed about the situation then i don't know what the problem is. I don't use halti's or GLs (which i think is actually just a brand name for the same thing) I haven't found that I have needed to with my dogs, and i *do* want obedience titled dogs, so i'm making the extra effort... but i am open to the fact that others might need it with their pet and, who knows, maybe one day i'll need to use one as well. Sometimes it's good to have an open mind about things, it can help one learn and grow too. ETA: I work in the animal industry and see all different types of dog owners and while i see some very weird and wacky things, i have not seen a halti being used incorrectly and it certainly doesn't appear to be the most, or to be becoming the most common 'mode of transport' (so to speak)

Yah gotta agree with Kelza on that one.. Fletcher wont be protecting you at all, he'll be setting up a quiet room somewhere with candles and dinner for him and his favourite Aunty Seriously Pip, we thought he was showing his love for Dakota on Sunday, you should see him around Kelza!!

Pip i'd wait till AFTER the show to say hello to the lady in pink and black.. She's SCARY while it's on!! :rolleyes:

Oh i see, so it's not definitely OCD. Well fingers crossed for you and Simba! The breeder is right in that environmental factors do play a part. There is also, as i've said, a chance that the breeder has done everything possible to prevent hip dysplasia of any kind, by hip scoring, and not using any dogs/bitches with a high score... but that doesn't necassarilly mean that off spring will have low hip scores too. In fact, Fletcher's 'low score' of a total of 8, is higher than that of his dam and sire's! Technically any score above 0 is 'mild' hip dysplasia, but it's unrealistic to expect only 0's in any breed to be bred from (i actually only know of one Samoyed that has this score)

Welcome to the forums Kelza, great to have more advice on SA breeders! In one of my posts in this thread i mentioned their website which is very interactive and up to date, but in that same post i think i wrote a million other things.. so just in case you missed it, Bonnie Parker, here it is http://www.samoyedclubofsa.com/

Melo - Tara is just stunning, i love her there in her party hat! I am so sorry for your loss. Samoyeds have only been a part of my life for a year now and already they completely fill my life. My boy means everything to me, they have so much spirit, personality, care and love for their owners. I can completely appreciated how much of a huge loss this must be for you, after 10 wonderful years together. You've done the right thing by your Sammy, as i'm sure she always did by you. Thinking of you. RIP pretty lady.

So sorry to hear of your loss It is such a hard decision to make, but lovely that you can help her when she must have needed to be free. She has her wings now. RIP Beautiful Tara. I don't think anyone wrote them off, i thought we all said that we didn't have any experience or knowledge of SA breeders? I think Icemist may have said something like that and he's not even in Victoria Please pass the details of this breeder onto Bonnie Parker as i'm sure she would prefer to be able to go and meet the breeders personally, so it's great that you, a local, have seen this thread

I seriously cannot believe the scores like that actually exist... the poor, poor girl (and on the other hand, so lucky!) Wolfsong, I had no idea you had been through the same thing with Lestat... good on you. These stories of doggies going to the right homes, just by accident, is so lovely.

Wow! How lovely that she lived all that time, without suffering.. good on your parents! I thought back then Hip Scores were done differently and could only get a score of 1,2,3, or 4 (4 being 'completely stuffed') And when i told one of the vets at work that Fletcher's hip score came back and i was happy as it was R4, L4, he stared blankly at me for a minute before remembering that it was different to when he studied vet school! He completed his studies in 1983. REGARDLESS, she obviously had terrible hips... generally severe hereditary hip or elbow displaysia is obvious before 12 months of age. And you all did a wonderful job to make sure she didn't suffer. ToughGirl - I think it is unfair to blame or hold Simba's OCD against your breeder. You have to remember that most dogs and bitches are bred before the age of 5 (and often even before the age of 3) so a disease that presents itself later in life can be hard to breed against so hip and elbow scores are done to try to prevent passing on nasty genes .... if they didn't do this, then of course they haven't done everything they can. It is always important to ask a breeder what the scores the dam and sire has and even the grand sire and dam. You can always trust that they are doing the right thing, but it's definitely nice to know for sure, especially from what you're already dealing with. As Icemist said, there are 'well known breeders' that will continue to breed with a dog or bitch regardless of the high hip score because they love the 'type' of Samoyed. So it is up to *you* to make sure you're getting something from good hips and elbows. Having said that, getting a pup from a dog and bitch with perfect 0 scores doesn't mean it wont come down through the lines and your bitch might end up with bad hips or elbows anyway, just by bad luck. BUT... the reason i don't think you can be *really, really* grumpy with them is, as i said to you in a PM, OCD is not a common problem in Samoyeds. I'm not even sure that all breeders do check elbows for that very reason. When i informed Fletcher's breeders of his 0,0 elbows they said "i would expect nothing else" as it just isn't something seen commonly in our breed. Have you contacted Simba's breeders? I'm sure if they are caring, ethical breeders they would be interested to know that this has occurred, and it may prompt them to check others within their breeding program, related to Simba, if they haven't already. Please don't approach them accusingly, as if they have been breeding for years then they have far more experience then me and probably have good reasons that they weren't aware of the problems in Simba's lines. All of this doesn't make it any easier for you though because, while it's not common in Samoyeds, it is happening to your young man... give him a kiss and a hug for me! Do the vets feel that the shoulder problem is related to his OCD? As in, it has weakened his shoulder, compensating for his elbows? I definitely agree that hydrotherapy work will really assist him in keeping healthy and happy for life. Highly recommend http://www.aquapaws.com.au/ ! Jo is just lovely, knows what she's doing, and really works hard to help our pooches out! One of Fletcher's hocks was angling in, she felt due to a small injury which had left him to use his foot in that way, in 3 weeks of 30 min/week sessions, plus some exercise at home, he was completely back to normal. He also built up some beautiful healthy muscles all over his body!! She deals with everything from general conditioning, to situations like Simba's, to recovery from spinal surgery. I'm not sure where abouts in Vic you are, but just thought i'd mention it ETA: I completely agree with you

We had a 4 year old Elkhound in today though.. that wasn't an oodle... and it was very exciting!!

I love going to Kepala for the dog meets, going to Brighton dog beach, having a walk around Lilydale Lake, and even more local to me is Liverpool Road Retarding Basin. I also used to take Hugo to Pugwood meet ups in Elwood on a Sunday morning, until we started obedience at the same time.

I'm guessing it probably wasn't the local vet that i work at We're rolling in oodles.

Definitely planning on looking for a little lady fluff ball to join the family in the second half of this year

I agree, and i wasn't being sarcastic or anything. I literally meant it exactly that way, that it is because they're providing her with a ball of white fluff so of course they're the best! I just wanted to point out that that was the reason - not due to opinions of breeding practices/champion dogs/exports/imports. I sounded rude but it wasn't meant that way!! You put it better

I agree, Kalaska have bred some beautiful dogs... Aussie is absoloutely stunning! What makes you say they are the best? I can see why toughgirl27 is coming from. Kalaska are currently on a roll with their dogs and have won a lot in the last couple of years, and if anyone has the claim to be the top of the pops it is them. They currently have a couple of very nice dogs out at them moment, and are doing well. But a little question I do ask anyone before making judgements, is how many puppies has any breeder knocked out to get those couple of nice dogs! So heres a question for all, including the new sammy people, an outside observation would be great. here it is: "What makes a top breeder of Samoyeds, or any breed in fact" Is it the number of champions or may be the number of champions compared to the amount of puppies knocked out? or exports or imports or other titles like obedience or hearding? the manerisism and professionalism? etc etc etc Which was exactly my point. I don't think these facts were considered in Toughgirls claim to the 'best' Samoyed breeder, it was stated because she's buying a puppy from them so to her, of course they're number one! (they're going to be providing her with a bundle of fluff!) Don't get me wrong, I am good friends with Denise and spend most of my weekends under, or near, the Kalaska gazebo and I think they have a beautiful lot of Samoyeds to their name in the past, present, and coming up in the future. I just think it needs to be understood that there are many good, ethical Samoyed breeders and wouldn't want someone reading this to think that there is only one option for their family pet ;) Samoyeds aren't a breed that is over bred by poor breeders - like 'popular' breeds such a Staffords etc. We're quite lucky in that way.

yup

When you quote someone you have to write after the /quote All Samoyeds are stunning

Thanks for the book recommendation, ws! Pip that last line made me teary! I love our Sams!

I agree, Kalaska have bred some beautiful dogs... Aussie is absoloutely stunning! What makes you say they are the best?