tomas

I quite often combine the two in the same meal,usually a barf patty + a cup of evo + an egg or a tin of sardines.The rest of his meals are stuff like lamb necks,roo tails,fresh sardines and chicken frames stuffed with lamb heart. The simplest way is to alternate days of quality kibble with days of raw.I think this can take a lot of the guess work out and can put an 'overthinkers' mind to rest. There is a member of another forum that I frequent who feeds this way,one day of kibble-one day chicken frames,and her dogs look really incredible. Thanks Jamie, I think they would like to have some dry and some raw at every meal...I told them I was worried about a tummy upset etc. Glad to know it can be done. Gee I have had dogs for like 12 years and have so little idea about this,so am learning stuff here today!

Really appreciate your info leo01,as I have never fed dry I have NO idea! I feed prey model too Seems like it's best to keep the meals separate then. I have heard dry and raw are digested at different rates. How do you work out HOW much raw you feed ? Also do your guys look around for bones at all after eating the dry?

Tahnks for that. What RMB's do you use and do you add meaty meat and offal at all,say at those separate meals? What is the ratio of dry and raw you use,alternate meals? Also any digestive upsets? Would ground chicken carcasses work as well,as they are bone phobic,yet I said puppy would LOVE to chew on bones or thier shoes!

I have freinds with a new puppy who want to feed raw to their new dog. I feed raw and gave them all the info they needed,I have raised 6 dogs on raw with no problems. However,once they put down a meal of meaty bones they freaked. Dog was going to choke and die etc etc. So now they want to do half dry and half raw. I said pick one as it's too easy to get it wrong either way. But they are adamant they want to feed half and half. I am sure some of you out there do this with much success so am asking for a little info. 1. Do you split the dry food and meat or bones up,like feed separately? 2. How do you feel like you are achieving a balance of nutrients? Any help is much appreciated .

Hmmm.. It varies . But I use the Coromega sachets so going by them I usually have 6-9 a day...meaning I am getting 2100-3150 EPA and 1380-2070 DHA a day. Total Omega 3 is 3900-5850. Or that is 12000mg - 18000mg of fish oil.... ,so 12-18 caps a day if it was in capsule form. I weight 80kgs or 176lbs at 6% bodyfat.

I think it has more to do with what the meat animals are fed as they are raised, than whether they are wild or domestic species. What you say is certainly true of grain fed domestic ruminants from American style feedlots, however I haven't yet seen any evidence that grassfed wild game has a more beneficial omega 3/6 ratio than the grassfed domestic animals we tend to get in NZ and Aus. (But please share if you have data that contradicts that!) Incidentally, grassfed meat also tends to have more vit E in it than grainfed meat. Useless fact of the day. That was my point. But also farm raised animals can be finished with grain as stated above and also they usually eat a smaller variety of plant species than our domestic ungulates. If you want to check it out,google wild game omega 3 levels and domestic game omega 3 levels nz australia. We should all take fish oil and give to our dogs as a preventative! I take fish oil daily at a high level and am VERY active, if I miss it a few days my knees notice it first as I do over 3 hours of exercise a day.

But plenty of animals are 'finished' in feed lots leading up to sale in Australia too, how can I tell what is grass fed it's entire life? Asking, I have found, usually gets blank stares. You can't but feed fish oil at the safe levels I have detailed in the preceding pages and you are good to go.

We agree on the species appropriateness of that. EPO contains mostly the omega 3 known as ALA, we mammals need to change this to the omega 3 fatty acids DHA and EPA to use it in our bodies. We humans make that conversion quite inefficiently, dogs (and cats) are even more inefficient at converting ALA to EPA. So it's best to feed fish oil, which already contains the EPA that they need. I don't think EPO hurts, it just isn't a complete substitute for fish body oil for dogs and cats. Of course, you could argue that most wolves probably don't have access to fish oil, or even access to oily fish, all that often. But it's one of these things (like probiotics) that seem to enhance the health of dogs regardless of whether their ancestors ate it, so I think it's worth giving. Yep they don't. But they have access to wild game whereas our dogs do not and the food we buy these days for our dogs and us is way out of whack in terms of Omega 6 to 3 ratio. Hence we give the fish to try and balance that back a little. For those that wonder,Omega 6 is inflammatory and 3 is anti inflammtory.

Myself and the vet think both dogs are the perfect size. You cannot see their ribs but you can feel them with a layer of fat. So then you can keep the amounts the same and just go for the variances you mentioned you would try. Where can you get probiotic capsules and are we talking about human capsules? I've never feed them yogurt up until yesterday. I was reading somewhere that yogurt was good for the dogs insides, so I'd figured there was no harm in trying. I think I am going to have the same issues as everyone else with green tripe. Yes human probiotic you get from the fridge in the chemist. I gave you MY reasons why I would not feed yoghurt. I'd figured if I was feeding my dogs fish, would there be a need to actually feed them fish oil? What if i OD my dogs on omega 3? and if I do feed them fish oil, do I cut the capsule up and squirt the liquid into their meals? You would be hard pressed to OD them on Omega 3 and again I gave you 'safe' guidelines to work with Also as mentioned we all have different ideas about feeding but EPO is not species appropriate in my book,it is of plant origin and you have 2 little carnivores. So save your money and buy good quality fish oil. I give the fish oil as insurance for it's anti inflammatory properties and because one of mine will not eat fish no way no how! I can certainly up the anti with half an egg every second day. What is the benefit of giving them the egg shells? As for the kibbles, it's mainly for the convenience in the morning, as I'm up at 7 and then out of the door in 15. Mumble never use to get any sort of breakfast, only just snacks, however I figured there is no harm in feeding him scattered breakfast in the morning, while I'm still feeding Annie's breakfast Shells just have the calcium but you certainly do not need to feed them. No biggie. I'm actually looking forward to using my food processor for the first time since owning one.

You New Zealanders are just taunting us with the green tripe recommendations, just can't get it here. I have bought some of the Ziwipeak canned tripe - doubt it is as good as the fresh variety but the dogs do love it, and they just won't touch most canned food. Sorry and I have over 10kgs in my freezer of beef and lamb tripe and it's from 3 different sources who use different parts of the lining to make their tripe. I have used the Ziwi tripe on occasion,always have a few cans of that and straight ziwi as well as freeze dried K9,cos you never know what may happen and they still need to eat!

Is'nt the Van diet a human dietary plan to lower cholesterol? If people stopped eating refined carbs,drinking too much and smoking then they would'nt need a whacky plan like that. O.K I will get off my soapbox

Start with 2 % of the dogs weight eg. Mumble is 8kgs so start with 160g if he gets skinny increase it,if he gets fat decrease it,Annie at 3.4 kgs but a puppy I would start at 5% and you can go up or down from there,as much as 10% sometimes. I have Vizslas and at 6 months they eat 8-10% a day! So she would get 170g at 5% a day,gee that seems like nothing!!!! I would go 200g a day then at least. Are they fat or skinny though? Feed pork ,wondrous meat,my guys do so well on it,remember without carbs our dogs get their energy from fat,so I would nix the yoghurt and if you want a probitic use raw green tripe ,if you cannot find that I would use a probiotic capsule,maybe 1/2 each? MUCH better and you are'nt feeding dairy this way. I always say,no animal other than a human eats dairy after weaning. Unless when hunting, your dog would down a pregnant deer and rip out her mammaries! wolves do that but it is'nt often,I have looked at studies. Somtimes they would kill a pregnant deer and just eat the developing fawn and leave EVERYTHING else! The rest sounds o.k,though I never feed kibble so that would'nt be something I would do. Up to you,same with the all bran or psyllium. My guys get nothing like that and all have perfect poops! Not too hard or soft,but if they strain I feed a boneless meal the next day or give more liver or kidney or offal. Usually loosens stool. One thing you never mentioned is fish oil. Find a good human fish oil cap and your guys would get... For a "maintenance dose", consider feeding 1(one) 300mg DHA+EPA combined total capsule per 30 (thirty) pounds of dog. --10lb dog would get 1 capsule every other day. --30lb dog would get 1 capsule a day. For a "therapeutic" dose (you're addressing a health issue of some sort), consider feeding 1 (one) 300mg DHA+EPA combined total capsule per 10 (ten) pounds of dog. --10lb dog would get 1 capsule a day. --30lb dog would get 3 capsules a day. Personally I think you will solve your skin issues when you get rid of the dairy,kibble etc and include a good source of Omega 3. Fish is fine but at least with a capsule you KNOW how much of the all important Omega 3 in there! I am glad you are moving a little way away from chicken,most chicken is way out of whack with Omega 6 and also enhanced with salts and phosphates! My guys coats crap out on chicken if it is anymore than once in a blue moon. I feed eggs every secnd day,great for a whole bunch of nutrients,so maybe 1/2 an egg each every second day for your guys? Now I think you are good to go

Do you mean? Though I will probably miss something. Beef meat ,heart,beef tripe,tongue,cheek Chicken meat,gizzards,heart Pork meat,pork heart Venison meat,venison heart Lamb meat,lamb heart,lamb tripe Horse meat

No it will be fine

I thought exactly that. Do your dogs go out anywhere that they may have picked up an egg though? Or been near dogs that have fleas? I sincerely doubt it could come from offal,as stated if you feed human offal you are fine.

RMB Lamb Necks Lamb Shoulder Roast Lamb Shoulder Chops Lamb Flaps Whole Chicken Chicken Leg Quarters Veal backs Venison Necks Whole Turkey Beef Ribs Pork Shoulder Roast Pork shoulder Chops Oxtail Muscle Meat Beef,lamb,chicken,venison,pork,horse Offal Kidney Liver Spleen Pancreas Brain Sex Organs Veggies NONE-only if in a premade raw mix Other meats Whole raw Sardines Salmon Green Tripe Canned sardines Other Miscellaneous Egg and shell Fish oil Tabs Barf Patties (Brands) K9 natural if very desperate and I have nothing else,but rare I feed it now, comes raw and freeze dried,soon to be released in Australia,I am in NZ. http://www.k9natural.co.nz/K/k9-stockist-a...an-dogs/_I.1154

Sounds o.k to me. I mean you have the dogs coat and eyes and energy levels to go on as your guide If you are feeding at least 10 % edible bone I would'nt worry about the egg shell,however when my guys get just a meaty meat meal ,no bone,which is every second day,I usually include a little ground meat or chop some finely and break the egg for them and crush the shell in that,that way they eat the shell. Most raw feeders do not have a problem feeding enough bone,but feeding about 80% meat is a struggle sometimes.... I hope you try the Coromega sachets for yourself,I LOVE the stuff,just had 2 Orange ones actually, NO fishy burps and makes taking fish fun,I mean you can squeeze it on a yoghurt as a topping or take it straight.

If you feed liver and eggs an as alternate with your meals and include fish oil,those foods have E in them so you don't necessarily need a fish oil that contains E.... Krill IS expensive,I alternate between that and the Nordic Naturals Omega Pet. You could have found stockists of Coromega and Nordic Naturals in Australia ON those sites I listed,anyway I did it for you Coromega stockists can be found by emailing here NEW ZEALAND & AUSTRALIA [email protected] [email protected] Nordic naturals can be found here BioConcepts Pty. Ltd. Tel: 61 73868 0699 Practitioner & Retail Orders: 07 38680699 Practitioner Enquiries: 1800 077 113 practitioner: [email protected] retail: [email protected] Consumer, Retail Trade,Practitioner Enquiries Tel:1300 885 348 [email protected] purehealthretail.com.au

Not really surprising if chicken was a very large part of their diet, because skin and coat issues are classic symptoms of mild zinc deficiency, and chicken is very low in zinc compared to beef or even lamb. Interesting, though. You guys who get cheap raw are lucky - I do a reasonable amount of shopping around, and it's still approximately twice as expensive to feed my girl raw as reasonable quality kibble! Perhaps it depends where you live. No never fed chicken as even 50% of diet. I think the ratio of Omegas in grass fed animals is better than the mainly grain fed chickens. Have read it's as far out as 20:1 in chicken which is WAY too high! I used to spend up to $250 a wek till I 'figured' where to get certain stuff from and what times of day to get it,one supermarket here ALWAYS has meat reduced late on a Sunday down to 50%,so I go there then

Neats one of my guys is THE most allergic dog ever,have stated here before,he failed all the derm tests done,even grass. Now he runs through long grass with ease and has a full covering of hair on his tummy My guys get 80% meat,10 % edible bone,10 offal of which 5 is liver and Fish Oil. That is it! When I went totally this way,no veggies or cottage cheese or yoghurt etc etc,he improved. In other words no sugar . IMO the Megaderm is a bit of a waste of money,some of the oils are of plant origin and it's just not efficient and damn near impossible for them to work in your dogs system. Though it also has Fish it says,who knows how much. So the EPO is also worthless. Just go to fish and use my guidelines weight wise on the previous page. Are you feeding any red meat,that has more than enough zinc in it. I always try to get nutrients from food as that way you can't overdose on them. I use the fish as I don't feed enough of it and though most of the meat I feed is grass fed and has acceptable ratios of Omegas in it,not all of it is. So I balance that out with the fish. As an aside I myself don't use a multivitamin. Too hit and miss,I MAKE sure I eat a full range of fruits and veggies each day,and at least 10 servings of them,and yes everyday! Have not been sick in over 10 years so I must be doing something right!

Totally agree with you. My 3 are so cheap to feed the natural way. And cleaning up is a breeze if the pigeons haven't already done the job for me. They like to peck out all the grains, so they are usually waiting on the fence line for when the girls have finished eating etc & are inside. Totally,now they eat mainly beef,venison,pork and lamb. They seem to do best on venison but get beef the most maybe 3 times a week as it's the easiest to find cheap. I love finding stuff reduced for quick sale,sad I know

Wow this thread is doing my head in.. so much to take in. Just wondering why beef would cause an allergic reaction? This is going to sound stupid, but would you say that purchasing beef at different butchers may cause your dog to have an allergic reaction? or is beef just beef? I'm just curious, as my dog is going through some skin allergy issues, which I have posted up. Some have advise to take him off red meat for awhile. I believe that this allergy is caused by the wandering jew weeds, however thinking back now, I also purchased mince beef from a different butcher... Any meat can cause an allergic reaction. Do you have cause to think beef is an issue for your dog? Also some meat can be enhanced,with preservative,which is often soy or also sodium of some kind. That is most likely what would cause a reaction. My guys do WAY better on meat from large ungulates than they do from chicken. On chicken they get a dry coat and dandruff.I would now feed that as a last resort if I can't find anything reasonably priced,which is'nt often. People feed chicken cos it is cheap. I used to too years ago but once I shopped around I have been able to feed 5 dogs,who are VERY active and eat a heck of a lot for less than I could on a large bag of kibble a week.

It negates excess Omega 6 in our and our dogs diets. Yes same as human stuff. Give 1 capsule per 20lbs of dogs weight,though these are the guidelines I use. Fish Oil Recommended dosage is based on a. dogs's weight and b. need. For a "maintenance dose", consider feeding 1(one) 300mg DHA+EPA combined total capsule per 30 (thirty) pounds of dog. --10lb dog would get 1 capsule every other day. --30lb dog would get 1 capsule a day. --50lb dog would get 1 or 2 capsules a day, your choice, no harm in feeding more. --100lb dog would get 3 or 4 capsules a day, your choice. For a "therapeutic" dose (you're addressing a health issue of some sort), consider feeding 1 (one) 300mg DHA+EPA combined total capsule per 10 (ten) pounds of dog. --10lb dog would get 1 capsule a day. --30lb dog would get 3 capsules a day. --50lb dog would get 5 capsules a day. --100lb dog would get 10 capsules a day.

The reason why i will feed dry in the mornings is two-fold. One, we are always in a mad rush and it's much easier to measure out 1/2 cup of dry, and two, as stated before we aren't going to get too technical with calorie and nutrient counting so supplementing raw with a good quality dry should make up any deficiencies for a growing pup. Yoghurt seems to be mentioned a lot on these forums, so i figured it must be good for the dogs. So if i were to go 100% raw from day dot, and don't want to spend time in the kitchen making up stews etc, what would you recommend for a 8 week old SBT? mince for brekky, chicken wings/necks for lunch, mince/liver for dinner? that sounds about right for your 80/10/10 ratio Sounds about right to me,though you would'nt need liver everyday...but I guess it depends on how much liver you give at one go,it is very rich. I tend to give my guys liver with a bone in meal. They get totally bonless meals every second day. I mean it's easy to get 10 % edible bone. As for chicken,I tend to buy a whole bird and hack that up if I feed chicken and that way I keep the amount of bone down, wings are mainly bone. A whole bird is maybe 30% bone. I used to do traditional barf years ago,with veggies,yoghurt,kelp etc. Then I found out about this ratio plan,they look even better now than they did on normal Barf and I have tried dry once or twice in their lives out of lazyiess,even persevered for 4-5 months with it and WOW,nightmare ears and feet chewing etc etc. Even on grain free kibble! This forum topic was set up by yellowgirl to allow us all to share what works for each of us. Go ahead and feed what you think is best for your dog. Just do research. Have you read the Myths page? http://www.rawfed.com/myths/ Really great place to learn stuff.

I feed my puppies like my adults. 80% meat ,10 edible bone,10% offal (liver,kidney,lung,spleen,pancreas,brain,sex organs etc etc of which 5 % is liver. That's it. Simple. Start with 2-3 % you will soon see if that is too much,but as Star said if you feeding dry you will most likely only want to feed 1 -1/5%. What is the reason for still feeding dry btw? I never feed beef brisket,teeth wreckers and not really edible bone IMO. I actually seldom if ever feed beef bones,maybe beef ribs at a pince. Just stay away from heavy load bearing bones of an animal,or using common sense,a neck of a steer is obviously harder thana neck of a sheep oir a neck of a chicken. Also if you can afford to,large ungulate meats are better than chicken and also have a better fatty acid profile due to usually being grass fed unless of course you are buying free range chicken,most supermarket chicken is enhanced with sodium or other not needed additives. Sardines and Eggs yes,I never bother with yoghurt,I mean why are you feeding that? What is the reason? Animals do not eat dairy after weaning,nor should we for that matter.If you want to add a probiotic buy it as a supplement. My guys eat lamb,mutton,pork,venison,as meat on the bone,I actually almost never feed chicken. They get beef and all offal etc as meaty meat meals. I am in NZ so you can also feed roo.