tomas

If it is not white turkey meat, does it mean the bones? Sorry, what is the contact name for the person who owns "Sunny'? P.S. It is Tomas who posted up the useful homemade diet link. Sorry had a mad weekend,you know what it's like with multiple dogs,rain and work! Ground turkey is US speak for Turkey mince,so the ground dark meat. They do this in the US cos it's cheaper. I am not sure what to suggest if the I/D is not working. I guess I would try this diet if it was my dog,but in no way am I saying you have to. I guess though the thing you need to look at is any nutrtion important if Chelsea is not eating...? The email for Sunny's owner is here,I would ask them what liver problems Sunny had exactly,explain Chelseas and hope she replies with soem sage words of advice. Kennalea Pratt Starbound Miniature Schnauzers [email protected] Tomas.

The links I posted above have more than enough advice for someone to be able to feed their own dog. Vets have little to no idea about nutrition. It's easier to open a can or a bag though I do admit but frankly I would be making my dogs food myself whether that be raw or cooked if they were ill. I really don't think prepared diets are the way to go with this. Here is the diet plan that has worked for many peoples terminal liver disease dogs. 9 cups of WATER in a BIG STEW POT 2-1/2 POUNDs GROUND TURKEY (NOT white meat turkey) 2 cups BROWN RICE 2 CUPs WHOLE OATMEAL 1 LARGE PACKAGE (sack) MIXED VEGETABLES 1 LARGE PACKAGE (sack) of FROZEN PEAS or 1 Large Package of Chopped Broccoli 1/4 teaspoon garlic powder MORE whole oatmeal to mix in after preceding mixture is finished - Mix in enough oatmeal to absorb all liquid and leave the mixture a tad dry. This can be found in the 2nd link I posted,read both in their entirety and you have your answers. Thre are slo supplements to be added to this ,also in the link.

You need a low purine diet not necessarily low protein. Eggs and white fish are good protein sources and also some grains,the right ones will help to remove ammonia from Chelsea's system. This link will answer many questions you have as well as give you many other useful links. http://www.dogaware.com/specific.html#liver Also there is this link to a Cairn who was diagnosed with terminal liver disease and seemed to recover fully with this home perpared diet. This will give you some hope. http://www.minschnauzer.com/diet/sunny.html I wish you both all the best Tomas.

As Bully said,there is little nutritional value in the white or bleached tripe. I basically use mine as a probitic and filler ,like us taking a multi vitamin. Shame you can't get it in Aussie,I get mine delivered frozen to the door. 20kgs for $35! My guys get liver 2-3 times a week,they eat that first! At a kill the organs are what the wild canids always ate first. These are the highly prized items where much goodness is to be found. Tomas.

Tripe is the edible lining and accompanying content of a ruminant's first or second stomach. Paunch tripe comes from the large first stomach and honeycomb tripe comes from the second. Green tripe means that the tripe has not been cleaned, bleached or scalded. The actual color can be green or almost black in color. It should never be white or almost white. This product has been used in Europe for years by many of the old time breeders. I am in NZ so no idea where you get it in Aussie. But it is well worth looking for! Any dog I know of that gets a large amount of it,will look vastly different in only a few weeks. Better coat,clearer eyes,more muscle etc etc. You must feed other stuff too,although it is already very balanced, but it really works. I also know people who use it as an addition to kibble and still see benefits. Tomas.

I feed once a day. But you must add the offal,this is vital. I use Green Tripe as well as offal and actually the Tripe makes up 2/3 of my 5 dogs diets. They get some amount of this everyday. They also get muscle meat,offal and meaty and digestible bone. But Green Tripe is my secret weapon,I have an older high HD dog who runs more than 3 hours most days on no medication or supplements other than a few Fish Oil caps. Here is the breakdown of Tripe. Beef, tripe, raw Food Code : 2670 Nutrient name Unit of measure Value per 100 g of edible portion Moisture g 84.16 Ash g 0.6 Protein g 12.07 Total Fat g 3.69 Carbohydrate g 0 Alcohol g 0 Energy (kcal) kCal 85 Energy (kJ) kJ 355 Calcium, Ca mg 69 Iron, Fe mg 0.59 Magnesium, Mg mg 13 Phosphorus, P mg 64 Potassium, K mg 67 Sodium, Na mg 97 Zinc, Zn mg 1.42 Copper, Cu mg 0.07 Manganese, Mn mg 0.085 Selenium, Se µg 12.5 Niacin mg 0.881 Niacin equivalents NE 3.094 Pantothenic acid mg 0.227 Riboflavin mg 0.064 Thiamin mg 0 Vitamin B-6 mg 0.014 Vitamin B-12 µg 1.39 Since dogs and cats cannot convert vegetation into nutrients within their own stomach they receive these nutrients that have already been processed from eating tripe. Juliette de Bairacli Levy states in her book The Complete Herbal Book for the Dog; "I would suggest breeders make good use of such flesh foods as the following: paunches of all animal (the raw, uncleaned paunches of healthy grass-fed animals can be fed with much benefit to all breeds of dogs). I learned this from a gypsy in the Forest of Dean: this man had bred many famous greyhounds, & he told me that such fare was the finest of natural food tonics." Benefits of feeding Tripe Improved appetite and digestion Cleaner teeth Improved skin condition Improved coats and lower susceptibility to fleas Calmer temperaments Decreased feces How to feed tripe Feed raw along with good meaty raw bones, muscle organs, My guys get canned sardies as well as fresh whole fish. No grains or cereal or plant matter other than the Tripe. I did veggies for a few years but once I started feeding Tripe I gave up,what a pain. Today they had Tripe,cottage cheese an egg and half a chicken each. Tomorrow is veal back bones,Tripe,beef and cheek and some yoghurt. I usually do eggs most days sometimes every second day. Let their poop be your guide,too hard and they strain, feed less bone and more meat for a few days,too soft,add more bone. My boys can run as much as they do and still keep weight on,I feed all 5 for less than $60 a week,premium kibble would cost me over $100! Tomas.

Here is an ear cleaning regime that NEVER fails to work if I have ear issues,allergies,mites,yeast whatever it fixes it all! http://www.tep-for-pets.com/acatalog/info_40.html Tomas.

This will answer some of your questions... http://web.archive.org/web/20050404212053/...ary.asp?page=20 Tomas. I'm a bit cynical when dog food companies such as contained in the above link do write-ups and 'scientific studies' on what we should be feeding geriatric dogs!! They're in it for the sales, aren't they? The more different types of food they produce and can market to people with old dogs, young dogs, small dogs, big dogs, dogs with skin troubles, dogs with anything else you could possibly think of (and I see now you can even buy breed-specific foods!!) then presumably the higher their sales are. Fifteen years ago none of this stuff existed and dogs did perfectly well without them. So in answer to your question, if you're a BARF feeder then I don't think you need to think about adjusting your dog's levels of fat/protein/calcium/phosphorous etc. as it grows old - that's the beauty of a natural diet! I have a 13YO cattledog racing around the back yard here and she still gets the same raw diet she did 12 years ago. Her teeth are strong and white and she copes perfectly with anything I throw at her. Just like the younger terriers. JMHO, of course! I feed raw myself,but felt the article had some useful information. Feeding an older dog I would up the protein level slighlty as like people food just is'nt as well absorbed as you get older. Tomas.

Also just found this one http://www.barfworld.com/html/barfworld/analysis.html Tomas.

This will answer some of your questions... http://web.archive.org/web/20050404212053/...ary.asp?page=20 Tomas.

Scroll halfway down this page for a list of Ca:P in food,not so much raw meaty bones,though there is chicken backs etc,but will give you a good guide in any case http://www.dogaware.com/kidney.html Tomas.

That's all good,you now have ruled out many things and have maybe an idea of what you are dealing with. O.K so it is possibly food related (though I know you discounted that) or an allergy in the environment... If you are giving antibiotics,I would look at giving a probiotic also,a pill is better than yoghurt. Billions more cells to help the gut. Other than that,I know I would switch 100% raw and go from theer,but we have disussed that. So you need to think elimination diet. Others here will have great ideas for that. Chicken and rice spring to mind. Someone will have a formula close to hand to give you I am sure. I wish you all the best Kavik,I really hope you can get this sorted asap! An idea I had to deal with the flaky skin was 1:1:1 mix of distilled water,Alpha Keri Lotion and Listerine (the gold kind) this will eliminate odour,moisturise the skin and also via the Listerine give some anti bacterial and anti fungal help You could also try TEP or Thornits powder brushed or rubbed by hand through the coat... http://www.tep-for-pets.com/acatalog/info_40.html Tomas.

I have 5 entire males living together. This does not happen here because I don't let it,PLUS they are always TOO tired to do so,I exercise them 2-3 hours a day and they sleep when we are not going out for runs. Have you thought of exhausting them into not bothering? I reinforce their hierachy by feeding in order,they go in the car in order,collars on in order,pattted in order. If I need to do something with my lowest ranking dog and there are higher ranking dogs in the room,I pat them first then see to my lower ranking dog. Only takes a second and as I said I never have problems. Just something else to think about for you. Tomas.

Erny have you tried Thornits on his ears. it's a zinc powder ,it's useful for mites and allergies. I use it on my guys as they swim a lot and never have issues,unless I forget to do t for a few months Here is a link you can look at,so you clean the ear as you have been doing and just dust this in the ear,not down the canal,I bet overnight his ears will be cool and calm http://www.tep-for-pets.com/acatalog/info_40.html NEVER failed to clear up an ear issue I might have,no matter what it was...though not sure where you will get it in Aussie but someone must sell it or someone must know where it is sold... Tomas.

Hope it all goes well Kavik,really wish you BOTH some relief Tomas.

See this is where we debate again,I don't agree that the size has to be huge and there are plenty of dogs who have blood in their stool,not that that would always mean they have Candida. Just saying. But to quote Dr Zoltan P Rona MD, MSc "The leaky gut syndrome is a name given to a very common health disorder in which the basic organic defect (lesion) is an intestinal lining which is more permeable (porous) than normal. The spaces present between the cells of the gut wall allow the entry of toxic material into the blood stream that would, in healthier circumstances, be repelled and eliminated. The gut becomes leaky in the sense that bacteria, fungi, parasites and their toxins, undigested protein, fat and waste normally not absorbed into the bloodstream in the healthy state, pass through a damaged, hyperpermeable, porous or "leaky" gut. This can be verified by special gut permeability urine tests, microscopic examination of the lining of the intestinal wall as well as the bloodstream with phase contrast or darkfield microscopy of living whole blood." This would rebutt your point that there HAS to be a physical hole in the gut. So you have your souces of informationa and I have mine. Tomas.

leaky gut is also called Dysbiosis as its theoretically caused by an imbalance in the gut - the beginnings would be more typical GI symptoms of bloating, wind, diahorea, mucus on the stools etc typical symptoms of a gut infection. Information tends to point that macromolecules, toxins and other substances will have an effect before Candida on the body. All the websites tend to have different stories on the condition and rather broad - Black skin is a side effect from constant licking as well it doesnt have to have a microorganism to cause it. Smells are definately caused by bacterias/fungus/yeast but that is for a skin scraping to confirm what exactly it is. if the dog was severely immunocomprimised you would have a possibility of Candia albicans overpopulating the gut, somehow leaking through the gut wall (thats quite a hole in the lining of the gut you should understand - it would have to pass though the wall not the cells themselves) travelling through the blood system and then infesting the skin without causing other severe issues. Chance of that is slim and not proven scientifically 100% I only have issue with you saying that chances are slim that this could happen and that there would have to be quite a hole on the gut for this to happen. I believe it is FAR more common than we are led to believe. So we will have to agree to disgaree on the fine print. I feed a prey model diet with raw green tripe as a major part of my dogs diets and this is not a problem for me. However what all this discussion does do is give those owners with animals with skin issues something more to think about than maybe what they are being told at vets. If only one persons dog is helped by anything either of us might say,then this is all worth something :rolleyes: Tomas.

how the heck does yeast leak out of a dogs gut onto the skin? Sorry that cant happen. It's called Leaky Gut Syndrome,look it up! I never said it went from their guts to their skin directly,I said "The yeasts leak from their guts and arrive at the skin surface,causing itchies,rashes,pustules etc." Candida (yeast) adheres to mucosal surfaces. It's adherance depends on the immune system of the host. It then secretes enzymes that destroys membrane integrity,leading to dysfunction. It also serecetes toxins which activate the immune system,overload the liver and then deposit themsleves in body tissues. We see it at the skin surface and they can itch in their ears,eyes and get eye infections, itching their underbelly and underarms,feet,genitals,skin rashes and pustules may also develop. This excessive itching can lead to endless biting ,chewing and hair loss. Symptoms can also include blackening of the skin,dry flaky skin or greasy skin and a bad odour may develop. Tomas.

Thinking of how much these things cost,I would try yeast first,then have a blood test for thyroid,then allergy testing.... JMHO. Tomas.

Derm tests cost me $160, 8 years ago...not sure what they would be now. meds on top of that maybe made it up to be $300 all up? They never worked,6 weeks of antibiotics and he started itching a week off them. I solved the problem myself after I read about yeast and thyroids causing itchy problems in dogs. My local vet never suggested a yeast problem,I asked for scarpes and swabs to be sent off. Found he had this and a few grass mites. I never treated them but treated him for yeast and when he had his next swab a month later they found no mites. Most likely he had them as his immune system was compromised. Kavik I hope for your pocket book and Diesel that you can sort this out. Did you ever test for yeast btw? Not sure I asked that. I would try that before doing the skin and allergy tests,it is much cheaper and easier. Tomas.

Well we are allowed to disagree :p I actually think so many dogs are diagnosed as having allergies to this and that,food included,yet what it really is is yeast that has leaked from their gut because of all the grains they are being fed. Dogs are meant to have an acidic stomach to digest meat and bones,not an alkaline one to digest grains. The yeasts leak from their guts and arrive at the skin surface,causing itchies,rashes,pustules etc. I too feed prey model,had one of my boys allergic to every grass and dust and mites and air basically. Cut out sugar in total,end of problems,well 8 months later it was! I have since met many people whose dogs exhibited the same issues ( show so have spoken to alot,I mean more than 20 now) and once all sugar was cut out they improved,without changing to a wierd protein. Have also read many University published articles on this subject as I have access to my local University library through my work. These studies and information is worldwide,not just local. I am not saying I am right 100%,but I feel I have a good basis to say,more dogs have yeast AND thyroid issues than maybe we or vets would have us believe. Oh and you don't give a dog with a yeast infection antibiotics. That is using a spinrkler to put out a bonfire. You take them off sugar,change the ph of their stomach,give good probitics,capsules rather than just yoghurt,use vinergar and listerine to clean the skin. This also works on an itchy dog even if it does not have a yeast problem. But as yeast is easy to diagnose ,a simple vet visit and a look under a microscope of a scrape or a swab and you should know exactly what you are dealing with. It could well be mange or a thyroid problem or a food intolerance,though I really feel the latter option is unlikely and what you get when switching proteins is a lower Omega 6 ratio in that protein hence the dog seems improved. Tomas.

Hi Erny, I would use White vinegar diluted in distilled water,not ACV,this has yeast involved in it's production,to me that is a no no with ANY allergic dog. Tomas. Thank you Tomas. When I was desperate the other night (poor love .... his ears were really bothering him) I did use white vinegar (diluted in normal water, I admit - cooled boiled water ok?) and it did assist with taking the heat out of his ears and reducing the overall redness. I'm finding the tea bag treatment has been helping a bit and I thought this might prove a bit more soothing. . I did this again after the bi-carb treatment and it seems to have soothed them a little. They became very red again after the bi-carb. Yes IMO the bi carb makes his ears alkaline and he needs a more acidic skin to fight off all the nasties Boiled water is fine,I am lazy and bought distilled.

Erny, I have just read a llot more of your posts,sounds like a yeast problem to me. On the Nzymes site did you see this page? http://secure.nzymes.com/pc/viewContent.asp?idpage=16 Down the bottom it tells you what food you can feed and what to avoid. Cottage Cheese is one to avoid,I see you have been feeding this. Tomas.

Anyone else got any idea's for this? I'm hoping it is something that I can bring under control and have it settle down, but I feel I need to do that fairly quickly before it creates more trouble for his ears than what there is already. I have massaged his ear drum from the outside and it does not appear to be sore. Only the flaps and the redness goes a bit patchy further down towards the ear canal (where the gristley bits are). Sorry I missed this,for the ears I used Triz Edta as a pre cleanse,then about an hour later a medicated drop that I got from my Derm vet. ears were 100 % in about a week to 10 days and his were FOUL! The triz prepares the ear for the medication. Makes it that much more effective. Tomas.

I've just applied the "spray bottle" formula (applied with cotton balls) for tonight and will try the rinse formula tomorrow. Hi Erny, I posted the link to Nzymes there,glad it might be useful to you. Yes the ears can be very red and hot,they and the itching in general as a detrox can also get WAY worse before it gets better,so be aware of that. It can go on for months,but usually you see some change quite soon. I have also used standard Gold Listerine applied neat as a helpful anti itch relief. Can sting on an open wound but once that calms down they do get relief. I had a terribly itchy dog for the first 2 years of his life,ultimately diagnosed as a yeast problem,well he is now 8 and been itch free since age 2,summer and humid weather as well,no problem. I feed raw and he gets NO carbs at all or sugar of any kind. But have not had to give him anything,treatment or medication for 6 years now. Best of luck! Tomas.