tomas

That sounds great,brilliant you met someone who has given you great suggestions to try and actually sounds like they know what they are talking about. Wish Keira and you improvement!

I have 5 unneutered male Vizslas,no problems here. Ages are 12, 2 x 10 year olds,6 year old and a 5 year old. Never had a problem and they all share my bed with me for naps on a daily basis. So it can be done.

I would start with a good quality dog probiotic,cure any gut issues and make sure she will actually absorb nutrients from the food she is getting. I would use Dr Krugers Joint and Muscle,it will help her gut,her joints and also has a whole bunch of anti inflammatory herbs in it as well. You can order off this site and get it sent from NZ to Aust. http://www.lapdog.co.nz/proddetail.php?prod=DKJM3&PHPSESSID=d105616091e8bcb146da646f4f3aba55 Also your diet IMO is not balanced at all. Raw in itself is not a high fat diet,but you certainly can overdo fat by feeding say fatty lamb offcuts. I would'nt add pasta etc,carbs like that promote inflammation. I would try something like K9 Natural ,you can buy this in Australia freeze dried,though it is'nt cheap, and you rehydrate with water. To this I would add a chicken frame as a bone to chew with excess fat removed and see what haopens in 2-4 weeks. You should see a HUGE difference by then. Also her skin should clear up markedly. I will take a stab and guess her optimum weight is about 20-23 kgs? So I would feed 150g of freeze dried K9 a day rehydrated with 450mls of warm,not hot water. You can mix the gut supplement in this just before you give it to her. That amount is for a 30kg dog but you are trying to get weight on,so that is why I suggest a higher amount. If she was my dog here in my house that is what I would do ,though to cover myself from attacks from everyone,all the above is my opinion. But I also feel strongly it would work. You need to treat her from the inside out,get her on the right eating regime for a start. Feeding K9 natural they have done the work for you. The amount you spend on it you will save on all the other treatmenets you are trying. Believe me I was there with my first dog 15 years ago and you won't win till you get the food right and her immune system boosted!

My dogs get 1-3 hours of hard running a day and a few times a week do 20-30km in one go. I feed raw and they get between 1.3-2kgs of food a day. So yes feed fatty food etc but try feeding more. How much are you feeding your dog? I weigh all their meals so I know how much they get. If they are losing weight I know how much to up it without going overboard.

Good for you EVO8Gold. Wish you the best of luck! Puppy at 4 weeks. Collecting at 10 weeks. Also no bitches available from litter and prefer males in any case.

I see your point Poodlefan,looked after aggressive dogs with my lot without an issue,dogs that can't go near anyone elses. Their owners were amazed,yes I exhausted them completely. Maybe I AM lucky,or maybe it's my good management :D Anyway,I am out of this discussion,time for bed,up at midnight for work. Or maybe there are genetic and socialisation issues that don't get resolved by exercise. The only thing I'd ever be prepared to guarantee with dogs is this - those folk who think they know it all with regard to aggression and dog management occassionally get humbled. Those prepared to guarantee on the internet that following a bunch of advice based on what they've never experienced in their own dogs do so at their own risk. Never say "never" Tomas. You might be right most of the time but somewhere out there is a dog who'll prove you wrong. Lets just hope its not another dog owner who gets to experience that.

Did you read all the posts in context?

I agree with you on that. Again though ,wolves would'nt have an issue in captivity if their physical needs were met,they are constrained so they can't fulfill those needs. I still stand by what I said ,I would guarantee if I tired any dogs out even the most aggressive would'nt have the strength to cause problems. On a low exercise day my guys get a minimum of 10km,rain ,hail or shine. Yes, dogs are social animals and social structures that sometimes resemble those of wolves. However, wolves have plenty of problems, amplified greatly in captivity (when they can't leave). Dogs don't tend to form stable packs when left to their own devices, but sometimes they do, it seems to depend on what suits them best for survival. On average, you would expect most dogs to get along pretty well regardless of who eats first, walks through doors first etc Consistency makes life easier and leads to far less tension and uncertainty, but there are definitely people who follow all the "rules" consistently and still have problems. It's difficult to guarantee anything with dogs unfortunately.

Glad you found it amusing,yes your tone was one of loathing coupled with sarcasm. I have explained my position in my posts clearly,no need to go over it again. Really you guarentee it???? How wonderful! Tell that to the people who had litter mate Border Collies. One had a very large rip in his throat stitched back together at 11weeks. They very fine with other dogs and people, just not with each other. One had to be re-homed for his own safety. Yes it can be done and yes breed does play a part, but it needs to be very seriously before going ahead and buying litter mates. In this instance the breed is a reasonably mellow one and the owner does have experience, but you still have the seperation issues to consider and training issues etc. If both of the owners are dog savy and train a dog each then that will help. I have however, seen amany issues between litter siblings and in nearly all cases one has to be rehomed. hahaha that is quite amusing, full of sarcasm and loathing - sarcasm yes, loathing - ummm right I do not know you so how can I loath you. I fail to see how you can guarentee something that you have no idea about. These puppies may just not have the temperments to live togethr and even if people do all the right things it just may not work. I am sorry but you cannot guarentee even IF they follow what you have advised. Personally I have males here that are no issue - not litter siblings, and have had bitches together that hated one another over time, not litter siblings, not the same age. They were fine with any other dog I brought onto the property but not each other. You just cannot guarentee htere will be no issue. Seeing as they are CCR and living with dog savy people I to believe in this particular instance there will most likely not be a problem, but I certainly wouldn't guarentee it.

I see your point Persephone and thank you for not being as basic as the other poster. However,I really do think raising dogs is easy. As I said tired dogs and for younger ones,busy dogs won't cause issues if their mental and physical needs are met in other words,that was my point. How else could I bring intact males and females into my home,as well as neutered or speyed and I have done this more than 10 times for varying time periods. Dogs need structure and time,without calling people lazy,I never understand why people ever have issues. Is it because their dogs don't get enough mental and physical stimulation maybe? I walked nearly 20km with mine a few days back,no that is not possible for most people but with a bit of thought their needs can be met in other ways so they don't have the energy to be redirected elsewhere. I don't think one can guarantee behaviour in dogs who you have never seen, in an environment you don't know ........ , guaranteeing one's own dogs' behaviour is hard enough :p

I won't be as rude to you as you were to me. No need to be so sarcastic,is that how you treat people in your normal daily life,with sarcasm and loathing? Yes I can gaurantee it,IF they do what I advised. Dogs work in social order,follow that and you won't have issues. Start it at the youngest age you get the dogs or if introducing older dogs which I have also done . I can bring ANY dog onto my property ,for an afternoon,a weekend or even a month. Scenarios that I have had in the past and nary a sideways look from my boys. Really you guarentee it???? How wonderful! Tell that to the people who had litter mate Border Collies. One had a very large rip in his throat stitched back together at 11weeks. They very fine with other dogs and people, just not with each other. One had to be re-homed for his own safety. Yes it can be done and yes breed does play a part, but it needs to be very seriously before going ahead and buying litter mates. In this instance the breed is a reasonably mellow one and the owner does have experience, but you still have the seperation issues to consider and training issues etc. If both of the owners are dog savy and train a dog each then that will help. I have however, seen amany issues between litter siblings and in nearly all cases one has to be rehomed.

I have FIVE intact males. Two are litter brothers,ages 11,10 x 2,7 and 5. These are fairly big dogs,27-40kgs. 24-27 inches at the shoulder Right now they are all asleep on 3 couches as I type this. Never had an issue and never will have. No fights,no grumbling,nu humping,nothing. They all sleep with me on a Super King sized bed for a few hours when I get home from work at 9am,I start work at 1am. They lay all over each other. They all have 1-2 hours of offlead exercise a day,that is the key,tired dogs do not fight. Plus they are all fed in order of hierachy ,they know that order and never try and change it. It's not hard,it's easy,but also this is what I am used to. If you want to get 2 litter brothers,get them,they will let you know who is dominant,reinforce that through feeding order,giving treats order,walking out door order,getting in and out of car order and I gaurantee you won't have a problem.

Best4koda,I have had Vizslas for 14 years now and I reckon its taken me almost this long to get things right,well what suits them best anyway. Believe me if I could get the same results feeding a supermarket food ,I would! LOL. But look at Dr Krugers online and see what you think,it was the thing that just made them that much better! http://www.drkruger.com/cat-and-dog-food-nutritional-supplements.htm I get these in NZ but surely someone in Australia imports them? If not you can buy them from NZ and Sy will send them to you. http://www.lapdog.co.nz/products.php?cat=5

I use K9 frozen and freeze dried exclusively for my 5 Vizslas. They always have firm stools,great coats and recover well after loads of offlead exercise a day,1-3 hours EVERY day! Today I did 16km,they would have done a LOT more. They also get K9 Joints Plus treats,with deer velvet in them. I give them these or Ziwipeak treats when they go to bed at night. They race to their bedroom! For supplements they get Dr Krugers Joint and Muscle probiotics for dogs and also collagen hydrolysate for their joints. They get bones to chew most days also.On other days they have dehydarted deer tendons to chew. They all love their food and I would'nt use anything else now,even after doing raw myself,as well as trying Ziwipeak and Orijen.

I use Dr Krugers Joint and Muscle for my 5 Vizslas,I swear by it,they always have firm stools,though they are raw fed and there are 4 herbs in there as well that are anti inflammatory as well as dog specific probiotics. I have an 11 year old and 2 10 year olds that run off lead HARD for 1-3 hours a day. Today we did 16km,well I did they would have done a LOT more,they never limp or are sore the next day either.

I think before we give hopefully helpful comments,what else are you feeding? How old is your pup? Also are you up to date with worming? Pup is 4 months old, kibble in the mornings and a variety of rmb in the evenings. He also gets raw egg, yoghurt and vegies. Yes, worming is up to date. On the days when he is getting the RMB's etc at night and no sardines,do you have any loose stool issues...? Just a thought,many dogs do well with dry AND raw at the same meal,meals apart etc. But you must remember that the ph needed in the stomach is different for both. One needing very acidic -raw and one not needing the stomach to be AS acidic,kibble and veggies will alkalinise the gut. So it could just be that his tummy is not able to cope with the sardines AND an egg if indeed you are combining those 2? Other thing I forgot is how is his coat,I mean if it's not dry he is most likely getting enough Omega 3 anyway.

I think before we give hopefully helpful comments,what else are you feeding? How old is your pup? Also are you up to date with worming?

I agree with the other advice you are getting. Dogs totally need fat for energy. How about buy a whole chicken and whack it into 4....2 breast bone in pieces and 2 leg and wing pieces. That is 4 meals. He will chew them as they are too big to swallow. I watch all my dogs eat raw as I have some gulpers too,just try and give him stuff he HAS to chew Good luck.

Ok playing devils advocate,by adding kelp in whatever amount ,how can you be sure you are not throwing their thyroid totally out of whack? that why i buy vets all natural its all premixed to a vets specification. i didnt say make up my own amounts. I have always been of the belief that the thyroid is something you don't mess with and really how many wild dogs eat seaweed? Surely they get enough iodine from organs... geez i was just using those two ingredients of examples of whats in the mix. i didnt say i force feed the dogs seeweed no wonder people dont post on this forum they get executed. if id said there was rolled oats in it, i would have been in trouble for that as well. you feed your dog what you want and ill feed mine. im sure the amount my lot eat of kelp, they would be in more danger from the toxins coming out of a cars exhaust when we go for a walk. I'm not qualified to give an opinion on it, i leave the trust in the professionals, but my breeder has an honours degree in science majoring in zoology, and she gives her dogs vets all natural, so if it was going to damage the dogs in any way we wouldnt be feeding them that. WOW talk about sensitive. I was questioning it because it is NOT needed. Yep you feed what you want to and your dog can get a whole load of additives it does'nt need and you can possibly screw with it's system. I am NOT bashing you but if you go and google information about feeding kelp to dogs and the pros and cons then that is my intention,not to upset you. Make sure to look for the cons too....this forum is all about sharing information and debating the postives AND negatives of things. Sorry but we are not here to agree with each other all the time,how damn boring would that be! Oh and kelp IS seaweed . Oats won't make your dog psychotic but kelp can! Execution is illegal in Australia as far as I know. So don't worry keep posting you are safe.

Ok playing devils advocate,by adding kelp in whatever amount ,how can you be sure you are not throwing their thyroid totally out of whack? that why i buy vets all natural its all premixed to a vets specification. i didnt say make up my own amounts. I have always been of the belief that the thyroid is something you don't mess with and really how many wild dogs eat seaweed? Surely they get enough iodine from organs...

Ok playing devils advocate,by adding kelp in whatever amount ,how can you be sure you are not throwing their thyroid totally out of whack?

Every dog is different though Tomas That's why it's very "trickey" trying to get just the right balance. 80% meat just wouldn't work for my Mishka at her age. She's nearly 12 & needs more fibre in her diet (raw, ground up vegies) to keep her system "running on all cylinders". The percentages you're recommending are probably great for your current situation, but this will change over time. I think that's why this is such a great thread ... there's no exact science & people are willing to discuss their own particular experience(s) in order to help someone else out .... Really one of my dogs is 10 and does'nt have a problem in that dept. I guess all dogs are different which is why they in all their shapes and sizes have the same DNA... But sure each to their own. My point is,people make feeding FAR too complicated. God save any of you that can be bothered mashing up all these veggies etc,seriously I used to. But my dogs look WAY better and are more energetic now than they ever have been,that's a 10 year old,2 x 9 year olds a 5 and a 3 1/2 year old. As dogs age they don't utilise protein quite as well as when they are younger and need more not less of it as a percentage of their diet. Oh and it's not tricky at all getting the balance right. It's simple! 80/10/10. Chuck it down and leave them to it. I have helped them out,I saved them a bucket of time and energy and their dogs will benefit

Maybe they are telling you they don't need veggies? Mine have been prey model rawfed ofr the last 3 years now. No veggies in all that time. Never had an issue with dogs finishing all their meals and looking for more even on gorge days! I feed 80 % meat,10 % bone and 10 5 organs of which 5 % is liver. Simple.

I feed 80% meat,10 % bone,10 % organs of which 5 % is liver. No veggies ever! Also I never feed a chicken carcass or a chicken neck,that is just bone and no meat. For my lot a crap meal is a whole chicken,unless I stretch to buying an organic one. I prefer grass fed or wild meats. Lamb,beef,pork,hare,rabbit and possum. I very rarely give a probiotic and fish oil. Do it as an occasional thing. When I put Ollie on this he went through a detox period,hair loss,ears and eyes gunky and scratched like mad,all those yeasts coming out of his system. Then one day virtually no more. That lasted nearly 3 weeks if I remember. Now he never has a problem. He came to me with no hair on his chest at all and it took a good 6 months to grow back. He was very immuno suppressed. I noticed on a local list here,I am in NZ btw,that a lot of Auckland owners ,where I live are having their dogs sneeze like mad at the moment and itch like crazy! My guys run for an hour through long grass 3 or 4 times a week on a walk we do through a mangrove swamp and they are all fine...guess their immune systems can take the pollens. Also we all do the best we can when feeding our dogs and I would never bash anyone but feeding becomes such an emotive and overly scrutinised issue with so many of us. I just wish it was as easy for the masses as it is for me. When you fed raw sas did you have enough protein in there do you think,cos IMO people feed way too much bone and I always say a badly fed raw diet is even worse than cheap kibble! Too much bone won't help a dog at all.

I was thinking more like ,buy a whole chicken and whack it into 4,2 legs and 2 breast pieces with the wings attached,plus it's just bone and not much protein. A wing for a Bull Terrier is perfect one gulp and choking size. I have Vizslas and they eat a whole chicken each at a sitting. I would even watch them like a hawk with a leg!