Nic.B

Rev Jo, you know I respect your opinion and I do agree that at times (in experienced, qualified hands) euthenasia is very much the most humane and the last gift we can offer dogs with unrehomable issues. My greatest struggle with the OP is that the dog was only five years old and had no behavioural or health issues. She could have moved into a great home. The owner also had the support of Guide Dogs. I have been through more than one death of a family member, cancer and or a lengthy death is not nice at all. Though one thing terminal illness offers is that you have the benefit of TIME to make decisions and say goodbye which some people are not afforded (leave the house and are hit by a car, bus or even worse) they just dont come home. As I said earlier, respect and good support needs to be afforded during death and the decisons that are made regarding pets. Though (only going on the details offered in the OP) I believe Toffee had a good chance an opportunity to move forward and find the home of her dreams.

Gosh, I should not have read this, it has stirred so much emotion within me. My Dad passed away in January after a long battle with cancer. It was a very difficult death and it broke my heart to see the life of such a strong, vibrant man disapear in front of me. Mum and Dad's goldie, Annie was the light of their lives. I could not tell you how many times they told me Annie had changed their lives. Annie was there through everything they had been through for 13 years. My goodness was she adored! Mum and Dad's entire lives revolved around their princess. If they were asked to visit friends or stay overnight somewhere they would not go unless Annie could come too and sleep with them. Annie did not leave Dad's side, she had a ramp that Dad made for the car and we used that on Dad's hospital bed toward the end so that Dad and Annie could spend time together. Two days before Dad died Dad became very emotional when he saw Annie. That was the last time Dad saw Annie, Annie stayed with Dad, though Dad was in and out of consious. The day after Dad died Annie crashed. She had had a tick about a week before and Annie was seen by the vet, she showed no symptoms at all. After 24 hour vet care for 7 days (and an $8,000 vet bill) Mum made the decision to pts. I can honestly say there was no reason why Annie would not have pulled through, the vet could not even explain it. About a month before Dad died Mum rang me and told me she believed Annie was preparing to die as she would spend long periods of time sitting on her own outside (which was unusual). That freaked me out a bit, though I just tried to reasure Mum. There is no way on this earth Dad would have taken Annies life (as in the OP) once he died. My family and I honestly believe Annie wished to be with my Dad. While devastating for all of us, it is a comfort to know Dad and Annie are together. For me this sort of situation is very personal and it is also very individual. Reading the OP, I agree this dog was only young, she didnt have any health or behavioural issues and obviously had an enormous amount of life and love to offer. They also had the support of the Guide Dog org. It is natural for a dog to grieve for their owners, I have seen it endlessly at my local shelter. Particularly dogs owner surrendered. Honestly, it may take a few days though these dogs quickly 'look to' and bond with the people who are meeting their needs (even in a shelter environment). Going by the OP I belive that it was a selfish act to take this dogs life along with hers. It is a shame this was not dicussed sooner. Perhaps if this lady had been reassured and had an opportunity to be involved in the decision making process of rehome after her death she may have felt differently? The only rescue I have ever had returned was from a lady who was diagnosed with a terminal illness six months after adoption. We spoke at great length for many months, this lovely lady was deeply distressed as she adored this dog, she had my full support. I wanted to allow this lady to make her own decisions and to be part of the decision making process. Once she was unable to walk the dog twice a day she decided it was time. Needless to say the little bug moved into a fabulous home which this lovely lady was delighted with. I also sent her family updates and photos until she passed away. Sorry about such a long post.

I just wanted to say, IME, a great temp test is a great assest for impounded dogs moving into well matched homes/rescues. It also reduces risk factors for families who adopt and for rescues who take these dogs into care. When Underdog came to Sydney, a young Kelpie had been deemed "highly reactive with other dogs". The person who stated this was an experienced handler though had only observed her in her kennel pen (at the shelter)as she walked other dogs by to temp test. That statement was a death sentance for this female (or any other dog) and I was devastated for her. This little Kelpie was very lucky and blessed as Underdog were not only in Sydney, they were also at the Shelter! I asked Tamara and Stuart if they would please assess this little girl and despite a very long day they were very happy to assist her. This little black and tan Kelpie was luky enough to meet the stunning Dexter and promtly rolled over on her back. There were a couple of issues which needed to be considered in responsibly matching her well with a new owner or rescue. She was over stimulated in the pound environment (common for WB's) she was not well socialised, was inexperienced in different environments and meeting new dogs. She was however a bidable female with great potential and most certainly not DA. To cut a long (and inspirational) story short, Underdogs temp test SAVED this little girls life. ETA

Some names can be a nightmare if the dog is impounded (in terms of rehoming). I met a beautiful large bull breed who was underweight and had some scars named Axe I got out my marker and stuck an l at the end, turned him into Axel :laugh: He found a great home. We had a little slightly crossed eyed Foxie named Bundy. It didnt click until a volunteer said to me 'Bundy looks like he has had a few too many drinks'. My beautiful Goldie was named Russell, it suited him to the ground. My Bull Arab is named Fern, my Foxies name was Bilstein when I adopted him, he gets Billy most often. Bella is a common name though I decided on that for my Kelpie as her registered name is Nicola Belle. My foster chose her own name, Peaches. I had a family here looking at another foster and their daughter was horrified that I had not yet given her a name :laugh: Peaches responded to the name so well, we kept it :) Kirslin Puck is heaven on earth! love his ears in that last pic :) ETA; I have a terrible habbit of nicknaming my dogs Fern gets "The Pern" Bella gets "black dog" "Bella Donna" Billy is "BB2IC' (Billy Burford 2nd in charge) and Peaches gets "Smeaches".

Yes, he was exposed after 10 years of farming dogs in VIC in hideous conditions. Not only was he a vet he was also a MP. Makes me feel sick.

Does it matter T? She has publicly stated her DD dogs have been and ARE being kept in sub standard conditions to BREED with. She has resigned and is now busy setting up another breeding facility! I am grateful for the info I have received. I am glad that she has been exposed for all she is worth. I hope the people who exposed her stay hot on her tail when she moves and keeps each of us very well informed. I am glad she is on multiple radars. You will never have a place on ANY news story (and then ACA) unless there is VERY good reason.

I saw ths briefly on the news last night and agree it is a disgrace. The footage did not involve trespass, the people were invited onto the property. Obviously they had hidden a camera. The diary enties were terrible, and this is a so called "breeding facility" owned and run by a vet!? Why did these dogs not recieve vet care, daily care or treatment? I bet this woman does not even live on the property in question and if she did live there it is even worse! What is even better (not) is that she has also publicly stated she will continue I have no idea what org this woman headed up though she has resigned and has appologised to the public. She also put in writting that the conditions were sub standard for the dogs she profits from. What a disgrace.

Yes the livestock impound is separate from the companion animal shelter. Let your friend know to call them asap. I love cows! I hope they are home safe and sound very soon.

Bugger, I knew I should not have looked! Now MN has surveys up about temp testing in pounds, here is one response; "ALL animals in a pound environment are under stress and should never be tested for their rehomable capabilities when scared, hungry, alone and confused.... it's unfair, unjust and totally INACCURATE..."

I had a feeling that would happen and would not at all be suprised if MN is behind it in some way shape or form.

It would be fantastic for staff at BCC to do Underdogs temp tesing workshop. You only need to look at the inspiration DAS team to see how well it works. The problem is and always has been this particular group. PR deleted the temp notes from dogs who were temp tested at HP, added their own pathetic "story" without even meeting the dogs and them pinched the photos that went with the temp notes. When MN was asked not to do that, she stated it was council property and that council owned the photos :laugh: She then went on to steal (register) the name pound list so that she could use the pics (and also p.off temp testers and volunteers) And she wonders why people are appauled by her. Honestly she has burnt so many people it is scary, now BCC are on her list. I would say she has met her match though, no wonder she is throwing a huge tanty :laugh: How on earth is she going to collect so many donations without the BCC dogs? Bloody terrible I have not checked yet, though there was only one HP dog left in need. Whats the bet MN kept them all up! the HP dog most certainly does not need pr's. MN needs that dog to create drama and pull in donations. I have said it before and I will say it again. MN will go down as the worst thing to ever happen in animal welfare we have ever seen. Sad thing is she will just disapear, while everyone else deals with the fallout and destruction she has left in her path. I feel so deeply for the dogs

God only knows what will happen. One thing for sure, MN has created this entire situation on her own.

:laugh: I was sent something today MN had written, she was demanding that people keep writting in supporting pound rounds. That there were not enough comments to support their stance Also sent something to say she was gobsmacked that she had not been contacted in regard to a very lengthy letter she had written to council. Not a happy camper at all!

I agree 100%. When you temp test you not only need to know what you are doing, you also need to be HONEST about the test!not to mention the fact most pr dogs go straight from pounds into adoptive homes or FC. I temp tested at HP for years. Fact is is you give rescue a bum steer re a dog (just because you want to get them out of the pound) they will NEVER trust you again. Temp testing is a HUGE responsibility. Temp testing needs to be independant IMO T. If pr's temp test IME they will simply work the system and any loophole they can use, as they already have with councils. I keep saying, it all comes down to the groups poor and unreputable practices (which are PROFF and FACT) No way in hell I would put my name to pr's in any way shape or form.

This involved HP not BCC and the "cock-up' via social media was by one 'rescue' (who soon after causing a huge amount of trouble and drama for the shelter and staff they 'claimed" to protect) ran with their tail between their legs :laugh:

Me too and I just don't get what it is people want - any dog PR had organised for released could have been released to anyone .There are complaints they dont temp test that they are putting unsafe dogs in the community but they are released by the pound to ordinary every day people whether they found the dogs via PR or not. If the dog is being adopted Steve families go through the shelter adoption process and they pay the shelter the adoption fee. If it is being pulled/adopted under pr's 16D (free of charge) the dog is chipped to MN/ pound rounds not the person/family who is then responsible for the dog. Pound rounds pull the dog out under clause for free (or close to it) the family arrive and pick the dog up without any costs at the shelter after they have paid a $180 adoption fee to pr's (who may not have ever met the dog). The vetwork for the dog is paid for through donations from the public pr's facebook site. Then pr's collect the adoption fee of $180. All transport, kennelling and even bathing is extra for adopting families and also factored into the adoption fee by pr's. Families must pay these fees if they stumble upon the pr's site, see a dog and decide to assist it via pr's. As I have already stated over and over again; Dog brokers at the very best

Which is why temp testing these dogs that everyone has backed away from is a step in the right direction. And the way PR work, the dogs are released to anyone it's just not an adoption at the pound. So if the pound say 'release to rescue only' on the basis of health or questionable temperament they rely completely on trusting a rescue to do the right thing. These changes wouldn't have been brought in if everything was roses. I agree. The question for me Steve is why are council pounds knowingly releasing dogs under clause, via MN immediately into adopting family homes when knowing very well all normal adoption checks are not achieved and endless serious issues associated with this particular group are evident? Even when dogs have been deemed RTRO PR's have adopted these dogs into homes straight from the pound. They have been returned from the home due to medical/behavioural issues. Impounded again (third time) and then pulled out under clause AGAIN! via Pr's straight (wait for it!) into another adoptive home! By which stage the medical issues are extensive and very expensive, not to mention what the dog has been through, then there are at times associated behavioural issues. I spent years and years temp testing HP dogs. Ethical rescues have worked with HP for a very, very long time. The difference is that ethical rescues have the welfare of the animals as their first priority, regardless of circumstance. Our temp notes were deleted and or edited, MN still used the photos, then she made up her own story without ever having met the dog. She is a menace and IMO is about to shoot herself in the foot. The reason they can do it as there is no real law on it, 16D's don't mean ethical rescue, all this has just been a ticking time bomb, now it has set off hopefully some good will be come of it. I agree, rescue is unregulated clause 16D or not. I am not suprised councils are now trying to use other means to work through serious issues in regard to unreputable rescue pulling dogs out from their facility in multiple numbers and poorly placing them into homes without any assesment. It is incredibly sad for the dogs and for the ethical rescues who have spent endless years working so hard. Regulation of rescue is needed. Not just for the general public, also for rescues working/networking with each other also for pound staff and councils so that enethical and ethical rescue is able to be identified.

Sorry Steve, are you speaking about BCC or HP? I have not had much to do with BCC. HP have a set adoption fee, no tender process. Rescue who have a clause have the dogs via HP released to them almost free of charge aside from a very reduced MC fee.

Which is why temp testing these dogs that everyone has backed away from is a step in the right direction. And the way PR work, the dogs are released to anyone it's just not an adoption at the pound. So if the pound say 'release to rescue only' on the basis of health or questionable temperament they rely completely on trusting a rescue to do the right thing. These changes wouldn't have been brought in if everything was roses. I agree. The question for me Steve is why are council pounds knowingly releasing dogs under clause, via MN immediately into adopting family homes when knowing very well all normal adoption checks are not achieved and endless serious issues associated with this particular group are evident? Even when dogs have been deemed RTRO PR's have adopted these dogs into homes straight from the pound. They have been returned from the home due to medical/behavioural issues. Impounded again (third time) and then pulled out under clause AGAIN! via Pr's straight (wait for it!) into another adoptive home! By which stage the medical issues are extensive and very expensive, not to mention what the dog has been through, then there are at times associated behavioural issues. I spent years and years temp testing HP dogs. Ethical rescues have worked with HP for a very, very long time. The difference is that ethical rescues have the welfare of the animals as their first priority, regardless of circumstance. Our temp notes were deleted and or edited, MN still used the photos, then she made up her own story without ever having met the dog. She is a menace and IMO is about to shoot herself in the foot.

I would be very suprised if BCC backed down on the decision they have made to temp test. Aside from being threatened and bullied, surely a decision to reverse temp testing would leave them wide open if anything did go terribly wrong? What they need to do is focus on working with groups who ARE ethical and reputable. I do agree that the type of temp test used is very important. Underdogs temp test is fantastic and very effective. Temp testers also need to know what they are doing, and look at each dog individualy. There are so many important issues, it is a mine feild

But dont they rel;ease dogs to anyone who asks for it - not just groups? I can only speak for HP though there is a huge difference between adopting a dog and pulling that dog out via rescue. Adopting families are asked to bring in the whole family, including dog/dogs if they have them. They are asked if they have a cat/small animals. Asked about fencing, how much time they have to offer the dog etc. The intros are extensive with the family, children and other dogs. If they have a cat/small animals dogs are tested with the cats. A lot of advice is also offered ie; creating a safe place for cats, supervison with other dogs/children etc. Training issues were identified, a months free training is offered, we also showed the family simple effective training techniques and what motivated the dog. A free health check is offered with local vets etc. There is a lot of support and information. If a dog is pulled out via rescue/under clause these checks are bypassed as ethical rescues will meet all of the above and more prior to placing a dog. For me the issue always has been working with reputable groups who will ensure the dogs needs are met and the families who choose to adopt. If there is evidence of an unreputable group, councils have a duty of care and responsibility both to the dogs in their care and the community.

But dont they rel;ease dogs to anyone who asks for it - not just groups? I just spent ages replying Julie and it is gone. Maybe it was removed? Can Troy help? I will be out now for a few hours at least.

I agree 100% with you Juice, very sadly pr's are not capable of responsibly temp testing dogs they broker for sale/adoption nor do they have any experience. They offer no support or guidence for adopting owners. So they want pound staff to do the work (or more than likely NOT!) and Pr's cash in with an adoption fee. IMO MN is saying to staff and council, you temp test, you work with and pay for behavioural intervention and then hold the dog until I say so, otherwise I will sue you and call the media. Meanwhile she has just pulled in $$$$$ with her emotive and manipulative posts for a dog she most often does not take into her own care!

Yes, that is the sadest part for the dogs and for rescue Jane. For years and years rescue, breed rescue or specificly geared rescue for different sizes, ages etc and shelter staff worked well and responsibly to rehabilitate, rehome or even pts a tiny number dogs if needed. MN has just recreated the "them and US" approach, pounds and shelters v's rescuers, what a fool. What does she hope to achieve for dogs by dividing rescue groups, pounds and shelters? I have witnessed SO MANY dogs (breed/age or other related) who not only deserved a chance via a specific rescue who met every single need, most of those dogs were given that as they were placed into the right hands. 95% moved into incredible homes.

I am not familiar with BCC Anna though at HP most things are taken into consideration and unless the dog has done something serious they are given a chance to settle and perhaps be assesed. If the dog does not improve/shuts down the dog is independantly assesed prior to release. The person who independantly assess these dogs puts their name to that dog for life (similar to breed assesors)the liability (and insurance) also changes from council to the assesor. I can only speak of my experiences though there are many breed traights to take into consideration when temp testing. For example we always tested Greys extensively with dogs of all size/different breeds etc, along with the cats. And if you ask a grey to "sit" you will be waiting for a very long time :laugh: Some breeds may be more aloof/or appear independant (shar pei comes to mind) All dogs have different thresholds, they are all individual. Some may have been there for a day, some for 3 weeks, some may be repeat offenders, the pound for some dogs is the best home they have ever had. If you asked me, it would come down to counciuls ONLY releasing to reputable groups who ALWAYS put the welfare of the animal first and formost. Despite that at times very difficult decisions need to be made or you are setting dogs and familes up for failure. Sadly, things have changed via one group in particular. Councils are now forced to try and cover themselves, that in turn has impacted upon goodness knows how many dogs and an endless number of really ethical rescues Sorry about spelling, I am running from here to the horses!