Diablo

Technically this example is positive punishment. It is a punishing consequence (suppresses behaviour), not a reinforcing consequence (increases or maintains behaviour). I bring this up because if the OP is going to use a check chain or prong then the difference between +P and -R should be well understood first, particularly if dealing with a reactive dog. A good example of negative reinforcement happening naturally is a typical reactive dog. The dog experiences some stress or anxiety upon seeing another dog, barks, and the other dog goes away OR the handler takes them away from the situation. Either way barking at other dogs (or lunging etc) is reinforced. Of course this raises the question - what might be the effect of attempting to correct this with a punisher? It pays to be aware of all possible outcomes, then you at least have a shot at throwing the odds in your favour: 1. you might punish barking and lunging, mission accomplished 2. you might further increase stress (classical conditioning), mission failed 3. it might have no effect, the negative reinforcement of the other dog leaving might overshadow the attempted correction, mission failed 4. you might use the tool incorrectly and increase reactive behaviour, mission failed You are advocating the right approach though, and that is to seek competent help in a supportive environment. I'm not condemning the use of check chains, but I don't buy this argument. As we all discover the first time we try to train a dog, they don't understand english very well. They do understand reward and punishment pretty well though, and if you're going to use the latter, don't pretend you didn't make the choice to do so and blame the dog. If you put a check chain on a dog, YOU alone are responsible for what happens next. Aidan, To clarify matters, I openly admit to being an "old school" trainer primarily experienced with GSD's and I am not by any means up with modern training methods, however, a leash and collar is a training tool and once training is accomplished, I can throw the leash away with 100% unleashed reliability in the dog. The joke in my younger days was that I didn't own a leash which back then, unleashed control sorted the men from the boys in training ability generating the wow factor of who had the best dog control as you could imagine Training is a balance of both positive and negative experiences for the dog to learn, neither all of one method or the other works effectively, it's a balance of both. People are becoming brainwashed with totally positive methods and what I am pointing out to people who are reluctant to use a leash and choker is another angle to ease their minds a little. The dog "always" has the choice to reach the end of the leash or to stay put by your side as commanded. It's not as if you have commanded the dog to run knowingly that he will soon be strung up on the choker when reaching the end of the leash is it???.

Yes, that is true and have experienced it on a few occassions where it appears the poor dog actually feels crook with abdominal disturbances, gas, loose stools etc etc which are food related problems.

Sounds like a Barkbusters promotion to buy their own food............heard that one before Complete garbage!!!!

Thanks PF. I do try and move away when I can and yes it does make things MUCH easier . The only time I ask for a sit is if Kei is pulling towards the other dog and I have no-where to go ie, if we're on a narrow path with the other dog coming towards us as was the case the other day or there is another dog walking in front of us in the same direction. The reason i do this is I find that it's much easier for me to get him into a sit and keep his attention than to try and walk with him pulling on the leash. If he doesn't notice the other dog until last minute I try to keep his focus on me by either using food or my voice and just keep on walking which seems to work okay, but as you said it's when he can see the other dog coming and has time to build up the excitement that he really becomes a handful! Some good news though- I have been using the check chain for the past couple of days and there is a definate improvement in his behaviour whilst he is wearing it. Yesterday we encountered 4 small dogs running around on the lawns as we came around the corner (2 off leash!). Each time Kei gave any sign of lunging towards them I gave him a quick 'pop' on the chain followed by either a sit or heel command in a happy voice. It took a bit of patience and a few corrections but he got the idea fairly quickly and I was able to control him and regain his focus. Though the check chain is very new to me and I still feel a little uncomfortable using it, it seems that a few corrections may be exactly what he needs at this time. Negative reinforcement (corrective punishment) works like this: If for example a dog tears out the back door hearing the side gate rattle and in the process and drive in the dog to reach the side gate and have a good bark he runs head first into the pergola upright???. The dog bangs his head which didn't feel very nice and next time he tears out the back door, he will remember the pergola and won't run into it again learning from an unpleasant experience. The pergola didn't hit him or jump out infront of him, he ran into the pergola of his own accord which becomes his choice to run into the pergola again or avoid it. A choker chain is the same thing where the dog has the choice to either walk along nicely or have a lunge and end up suffering a leash/choker correction. Because we are anchoring the leash doesn't mean that we did anything to dog, the dog by lunging did it to himself by choosing to lunge against your command of him to "leave it". The "leave it" command was given in the best interests of the dogs comfort level which he chose to ignor and therefore suffered the discomfort of reaching the end of the leash suddenly ending his forward motion. Leash corrections administered properly and fairly teaches the dog to listen to you. The dog learns that your commands result in nice things and feeling comfortable and running off on his own tangents results in things not so nice and comfortable. We love our dogs and yanking them around by the neck is not what we are doing in leash corrections and chokers, we are merely anchoring the leash and the corrections occur by the dogs own incorrect choice of action

Schutzhund training is open to any breed, but the Schutzhund obedience training which is the first stage of Schutzhund which must be passed before going onto further routines like the bite sleeve etc, provides an obedience foundation far exceeding anything that general obedience offers. A dog obedient enough to pass a Schutzhund BH, makes a mighty fine controlled pet of near faultless behaviour.

I personally wouldn't bother with Mark Singer............PM me I can explain why!!!. I would seriously recommend to join the Adelaide Sportdog Club and train in Schutzhund obediance which is open to any breed and most importantly, the trainers are great, specialise in large difficult to handle breeds and they couldn't care less how disobediant and disruptive your dog may be as their mission is to train anything at your own pace. It's one of very few clubs where they welcome poor behaviour and appreciate your membership and cannot be more helpful, real dedicated dog training people. There are GSD's, Malanios, Rotties, Dobes, Labs, Amstaffs etc training in obediance. Schutzhund obediance is "extreme" obediance that can take the dog from being uncotrollable on leash to complete off leash reliability, far exceeds that of any average obediance training and it's good fun too. http://www.adelaidesportdogclub.com/

I am not overly familiar with Bull breeds and would personally struggle to make a cross breed assessment, but I can't understand how it's possible to determine a Pitbull X???. An Amstaff X could easily have Pitbull similarities........and who knows what appearance any crossbreed combination can have the potential to produce??? I seriously fail to comprehend why a Bull breed of unknown origin is so often assumed to contain APBT, a big call which is rather senseless given that it's virtually impossible to determine that "fact" They can't thats the whole problem with BSL its based on fraud. tybrax I have personally never seen a dog confirmed as pure breed APBT and the couple that I thought may have been were papered Amstaffs. Given that the APBT is not a common breed due to it's restrictions and the ones in captivity I would assume are well contained due to legislation, the likelyhood of a crossbreed containing genuine APBT in this day and age would be very slim, if at all. The Bull breed experienced people would have more insight into this than myself, but what honestly is the likehood that the crossbreeds supposedly containing APBT are correctly assessed???. Looking at the big picture taking everything into account, would I be correct in the opinion that dogs containing genuine APBT would be in fact few and far bewteen???.

I am not overly familiar with Bull breeds and would personally struggle to make a cross breed assessment, but I can't understand how it's possible to determine a Pitbull X???. An Amstaff X could easily have Pitbull similarities........and who knows what appearance any crossbreed combination can have the potential to produce??? I seriously fail to comprehend why a Bull breed of unknown origin is so often assumed to contain APBT, a big call which is rather senseless given that it's virtually impossible to determine that "fact"

This applies to the 1 metre jump in Schutzhund obedience with the GSD where the dumbell is thrown, the dog goes over the jump, collects the dumbell and returns back over the jump............I don't know if this type of jumping is what applies in your application???. What I teach to make the dog come back over the jump instead of returning around the side is in training, I begin leash training over park benches as a fun exercise commanding "jump" and "back" as one exercise, so the dog learns that when jumping over something he returns back over the jump then praise. Every jump in training he must jump back over to me to complete the exercise and training that in drive. It ends up where anytime you send the dog to jump, he will automatically about turn and jump again on the recall with 100% reliability.

Being a bit "old school" in obedience, I get lost with clickers, haltis, trick collars and treats etc and learned to train with a leash, choker chain and my William Koehler book for bedtime reading................ , but I can say that dear old Bill (Koehler) taught me how to throw the leash away which was a big deal in my younger days having an obedient leashless dog It's interesting the "about turn" with a "good correction" has been mentioned, failing having rotten tomatos thrown at you for "yank & crank" training methods, the thing is, it WORKS, and the harder the dog, the better it works

Agreed. I'm moving to Europe in a couple of years and I will finally hopefully be able to own my cropped dobe As for the desexing, if you can last until 2 years with an undesexed male dog and managed to cope, I'm not sure that you'd need to worry about it. To be honest with you, I've only ever had female dogs desexed, I've also seen the studies posted and I just don't believe it's necessary or better for the dog health-wise. If you can control your dog and stop him from reproducing, I don't see the need and I prefer my dog to be as nature intended. For anyone who then says, "yeah but you want to crop their ears," that's because dogs originally all had upright ears, we just thought it made them look cute to selectively breed for floppy ears, so I don't see that as the natural state. In the last 20 odd years, we have only had males and are yet to desex one to this day. I can honestly say that we have never experienced any of the supposed behavioral issues associated with entire males or experienced a situation where obedience training didn't proof them to a bitch in season either. They are easily trained to wee on command at walks and don't wee on every second tree or post or mark anywhere else. I totally agree with Jacqui's opinion, once they are trained over their first two years, there is no necessity. I would be more inclined to have a vasectomy done to prevent accidental pregnancies than a total neuter.

' Sad but true in too many cases. The GSD in particular is a working dog without getting into a working lines versus show lines debate, a GSD is a GSD one breed only and ultimately it must be able to work first and foremost. The "Schutzhund Test" (not to be mistaken as the sport of Schutzhund) was developed specifically to test the working ability of the GSD where dogs unable to pass the test were considered faulty and could neither be shown or bred. The Schutzhund Test was the entrance pass into the show ring which clearly confirms that workability has priority over conformation in the breed with the champion dog being the best in conformation of the dogs that have working ability. Some countries including Australia decided that the Schutzhund Test should not be included in determining temperament and workability which has left us with champion dogs in conformation which is only part of the breed standard and fails to evaluate and rate the complete dog as intended unfortunately.

Strangely only last night in another thread, I was having this very discussion about weak nerved GSD's bred for show/pet purposes and the "exact" discussion that I mounted was "when it comes to the crunch, the weak nerve GSD's will run away, they won't protect you" and everyone wanted to argue about it telling me I was wrong???. It's not the breed Brooke, it's the breeding of your dog to produce weak nerved, soft temperament more socially acceptable animals free of civil aggression. My GSD would have taken the guy's arm off before he raised it, infact the guy wouldn't have been game enough to approach us once he was switched into defence drive. With a hard temperament and strong nerve dog, the training is preventing them from barking,chasing, attacking, not teaching them to react which is the difference. A GSD from a breeder perhaps a working line or a strong showline that do produce dogs capable of protection/security work would suit your requirements, but such breedings are difficult dogs to control and require training practices by professional people with experience in handling them correctly. Sorry Rex but I think not being aggressive can NOT be taken as WEAK NERVED GSD's. My dogs have all had beautiful temperments, Would they protect me if someone attacked me ? I dont know cause they dont feel threatened by people.But have never had to put them in that position, thank goodness. My old girl that I had was the softest natured dog you could ever meet. But we had a party one night and a friend was mucking around gave me a squeeze and Tash was between us and glaring him and wouldnt let him move a muscle till he moved away form me, and was there every time he came towards me, he laughed as he has GSd's but I felt safe. Another time our next door neighbour was in and out of our house Tash just sat and watched, then my husband walked across the road and as he was coming back here was the neighbour backing up saying OK OK I'm not coming in, There was no way she would of let him in without us being there, never bit anyone of course, but had that dont even think about it look Brydee well she is only 12months old but I'm sure she would just give you a cuddle I would have to agree that in many show breedings, much of the drives required for a GSD to be trained effectively in protection work is missing unfortunately. The breedings are definitely becoming softer especially with lines where the breeders are not purposely maintaining the breeds working capabilities favouring conformation over workability in their search for producing show winning examples. Generally speaking, the lines having the desired drives to be easily protection trained are usually a bit more lively, dominant and can be more suspicious and hostile towards people outside of their pack and can be difficult to handle for the average pet owner lacking the experience in training more serious dogs. The nerve of the dog is how it copes with pressure which is different to it's willingness to aggress where a dog that is reactive in aggression can do so from fear caused by weak nerves where some of the quietest most layed back GSD's can have extremely hard nerve, but in a dog trainable in protection requires both nerve and drive and either doesn't work effectively without the other. Some working lines are bred with over the top drives which wins in dogsport competition but doesn't always provide the correct balance for protection work either which is a rather complex balance of drive, nerve and specialised training to achieve such a dog.

"Golden Retrievers dressed in GSD uniforms" was the saying told to us when searching for a well balanced GSD, a GSD that had the ability to fulfill the working roles that the breed is supposed to be able to achieve. It took some searching to find a breeder who strives to maintain the type of GSD that reflects the breeds working history.