Simply Grand

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Thistle, I'm not sure what the pounds do but I imagine it differs a lot from state to state and council to council. I was doing it at RSPCA ACT a little while back and we were lucky to be funded (by the CEO at the time who saw it as a priority) for several trainers at the time so we could actually work with dogs with behaviour problems for as long as they were improving really whereas I know many pounds and even other RSPCAs (and actually I don't know what RSPCA ACT is doing these days) don't have the resources to get the dogs out to work with trainers, meaning really if they have problems that show up in initial assessments and aren't immediately adoptable then keeping them in the kennels without being able to work with them isn't going to improve anything for them. It is a really hard balance and of course the dogs can't tell you how they are feeling. Some dogs cope fine for months and months on end and others have no issues at all initially but go downhill really quickly with the stress of the kennels. We occasionally had to put to sleep dogs like that for their own mental welfare and they were the hardest because you would think if only they had had any other option than ending up kennelled they would have been fine

Not for money thank God and lets pray it stays that way. Animal welfare and big money often don't go together. Oh wow, that's great! Yes let's hope it stays that way and can maybe set an example for other racing (optimistic I know)

I know very little about how the LDH operates but definitely agree with Aussie that the line staff are no doubt doing the best they can for the animals with what they are given. And again, I don't know whether this is part of the issue at LDH, but having been one of the people who assesses and works with shelter dogs and makes decision about whether volunteers can take them out or not, I can tell you it can be really difficult. OF COURSE dogs need interaction and stimulation and to get out of their kennels and volunteers are vital for that to be able to happen, and most are brilliant, but sometimes the risk of letting whomever is volunteering take out a particular dog can be too high. For example, one of our most emphasized procedures for taking dogs out was that two dogs should never be within reaching distance of each other and should never be left standing face to face while the handler talked to someone or did something, as face to face is so confrontational for dogs. And yet I couldn't tell you the number of times we as trainers would come across people standing and talking while dogs stood face to face looking at each other. Certain people we would have to remind again and again and again (which didn't usually go down well). With certain dogs we knew that if that happened they were highly likely to attack another dog within reach, prior to us doing work with them, and if that happened and there was an injury that dog would have lost its chance at rehab. Additionally there can be crucial points in rehab where one bad, uncontrolled experience can undo weeks of good work. So there were dogs that volunteers were not allowed to take out, and even some that they weren't allowed to interact with in kennels. Often volunteers would be unhappy about that but it was about trying to make the best of a really bad situation for the poor dogs.

It's also the same salon that had a little Papillon client allegedly escape out the front door while it was there for grooming and was never seen again, despite a huge campaign to find it. It was widely suspected the dog had died but the salon didn't want to admit it. You never know of course, maybe the salon was being completely honest but there was a lot of suspicion.

I've mentioned it before but Saxon was booked into this place for his first ever groom as a puppy. I hadn't dealt with dog grooming before I had him so I didn't think to ask whether could stay and watch and when I got there it was impossible to see the grooming area and when I asked to look I was very bluntly told by a staff member that no I couldn't look out the back. A manager (maybe the owner?) came out and more politely explained it was for insurance reasons that I couldn't go beyond the tiny, enclosed reception area but I just had a really bad feeling about it and couldn't bring myself to leave Saxon there. Thank goodness I didn't!!

Oh I saw the lost post on CLPD (the FB link Sars posted) and wondered what had happened that they were saying do not approach the dogs or let them near other animals What a nightmare for all involved. I think I would probably have them put down as well, the life they would have to have in order to not be too much risk wouldn't be much of a life for them

Yes, we had a talk about why you do not ever hit dogs. Turns out his step dad smacks his dog on the nose when he's "naughty" so he's learnt it from there.

I was thinking about this just yesterday actually, pondering that maybe they do actually understand to some extent when we apologize. I too do it all the time when I accidentally stand on someone's paw or walk into them or whack them in the head, and they always seem completely fine and relaxed as soon as I apologize. I didn't really think it meant anything to them and actually wondered how dogs that receive physical punishment from their owners respond to those inevitable accidental injuries, as surely everyone does it. How would they know if it was an accident or an intentional hit or kick because they'd done something "wrong"? Anyway, yesterday the kids in the family I'm staying with (renting a room, and Quinn has adoooored being with the kids) were practicing "training" the dogs and Quinn didn't do what the 8 year old had asked her to so he smacked her across the nose. It wasn't hard and wouldn't have hurt her but Quinn really seemed to understand that it was intentional and was clearly taken aback. She moved away from him then and was a little reserved (SO not like her) for the rest of the evening, until the kids went to bed. So I know there are a lot of complexities in that particular situation but on seeing the difference in Quinn's reaction to me accidentally whacking her hard in the face on occasion and immediately apologizing vs the pretty light smack to tell her off, I really get the impression that our dogs do understand when we apologize that we didn't mean to hurt them.

mr mister, I have every intention of using a leash if I ever end up with bolting kids!! :)

The thing about kids is they are the same species as us so like it or not we do all have some role to play in how they grow up in our society. That's not to say that anyone who doesn't want to has any obligation to interact with them, other than being near them, but it doesn't work to say I don't have em, I don't want em, therefore I have the right to have them kept away from me at all times. These kids are the ones who will grow up to work, pay the taxes and make the contributions to allow our society to keep functioning. Their parents are the ones doing the work (whether it's to an ideal standard or not) to raise these kids. That means that all of us who use services and roads and medical care and accept the benefit of gains in research and technology actually need these kids to exist, whether we personally like them or not. That's why it's different to dogs. And incidentally, I may have taken my dogs (not all 3 at once) into Bunnings if I needed to pop in and won't now if they have to be muzzled, BUT they are trained to accept a muzzle if it's needed - it's not hard to do an I'd much rather to it as a stress free training exercise than try to force one on them if they are injured and distressed and actually need one.

Now that we're on the topic I have a couple more questions if people don't mind! What is the main reason for doing the surgical AI? I assume it's because it is more likely to succeed by getting the sperm all the way up into the uterus directly, rather than trans cervical insemination? Also, are bitches, like human females, born with all their eggs (I assume they are)? And, do they release multiple eggs each season? Again, flat mate and I were talking about this and assumed they must do in order to have multiple babies that aren't identical. And of course to allow different fathers within the same litter.

You absolutely have the right to ask/tell people to control their kids and I'd well and truly tell someone else's kid off if they ran up to us and hit Justice and I couldn't care less how much that might upset the child or their parents. I think it's a bit like dog parks though. You should be able to take your dog in to them and not be accosted by other dogs and everyone is supposed to have their dog under effective control but the reality is very different so, even though you have a right to be there with your dog who doesn't like other dogs racing up to them and getting in their face, that's what's going to happen so it's better to avoid the dog park with your dog. Bunnings has lots of areas (like aisles) where movement is restricted and your dog will be forced in to close contact with people (including children who aren't under control) and other dogs, so while it may not be fair it's better to not take your dog there unless they're bomb proof and can handle that. Exactly Snook! Thistle, I agree, Quinn has been known to be worried of some men lately and as soon as she barks at them they seem to decide they must win her over and approach with more determination And yep, I'm quite comfortable telling children to stop or wait a minute or leave that dog or be gentle. As long as you are calm but assertive about it kids generally respond well IME. I haven't had a parent have an issue but if they did I'd be very tempted to say "fine then" and let all three of my dogs go to knock the kid over and scare the crap out if with their barking... NOT REALLY! I would never do that, and my dogs actually love kids, they can just be a bit overwhelming sometimes, but there is a reason I am saying something if I am!

Wow, thanks everyone, how interesting! Yes it must have been the surgical AI, my friend thought the egg ha already been fertilized but wasn't sure. They were apparently very disappointed with only the one pup (understandably after all the effort) and they didn't keep it so it mustn't have turned out to be what they were looking for.

I was just chatting to my temporary housemate about dog husbandry, she has been wanting to get a dog for a while and now that the family all seem to be enjoying having my dogs around she is asking heaps of questions and wanting to learn as much as she can ( ) A breeder she has made initial contact with posted on FB tonight that she has just had a litter born (9 babies from a Cav x Toy Poodle ) so we were talking about how dogs conceive and she said she had a friend who had bred their racing Greyhound a while back and they had surgically implanted the embryo, leaving a scar on the bitch's abdomen. I asked if it was from a Cesarean as the puppy ended up being a singleton, but she said she'd seen the scar and discussed it with the owners while the bitch was pregnant, not after the puppy was born. So I knew about AI but assumed it was a case of "squirting it up there" at the right time. Do people do actual IVF with surgical implantation on dogs though? (incidentally they don't use an incision to implant the embryo in human IVF so I'm confused about the whole thing...)

Hahaha, glad she's not the only little hussy. I actually felt sorry for her, she was looking so frustrated about it!

Just bumping this question as I'd really like to know the answer. I would suggest there are individual differences SG - the research is very sparse. Thanks TSD, sorry I missed replying to this before. This issue is something I would want to take into consideration if I was going to use an e-collar (and hopefully good trainers do) because it seems to me that if a dog does get used to a level and needs an increasingly high level of shock/stim/whatever to get results then it propably isn't a good tool to use.

Sorry, I can't post in Breeders, but Quinn is showing yet another new behaviour. I'm sure it's normal but this is her sixth season and it's the first time she's done it. She is mid season, presumably receptive time, and just today she has been totally presenting herself, as in lying her front end down, like starting a drop or play bow, and leaving her butt up the air waving it around! It's not at anyone in particular, there are only my two desexed males around, and they've always been around, although Saxon is being particularly obsessed with her this time around. Quinn has flagged with her tail during previous seasons, and backed herself up to me if I scratch her back above her tail but this sticking her butt in the air and just hanging out waiting for a male to walk past and mate her is a new thing :laugh:

Ok, thank you :) So what do the modern ones do then?

What you and most others have written about 'shock' is not the way 'e-collars' are used throughout the rest of the world. The problem with Oz is that there seems to be bans and restrictions either all over the place.....i don't know whats where over there, i remember they were banned in, I think, Queensland as the result of the rspca god of all things sweet & nice, named Wirth, that was way back at least a decade ago.......i have no idea at all whats happened or where in oz since then. For the record, shock collars started to fall into technological and application obsolesence from 2000 onwards as manufacturers other than TT developed instant selection. Prior to instant selection and with most units to change the level the dog had to be recalled, the contact points unscrewed and another set screwed back to raise or lower the levels. . So Denis can you please explain exactly what the modern day collars are supposed to do when used in training? Is the sensation the dog gets from the collar when the handler pushes the button supposed to in itself reduce an undesirable behaviour, and if so how does it do that? Or is it supposed to signal or cue the dog to do a certain behaviour?

...here is the of the video from the Perth guys again...I can't see a major flaw in this approach... I can certainly see how the training can work but I actually don't find that particular video clip convincing. The corgi and the shepherd/kelpie looking dog (Tracker?) appear to be reacting to the shock, not the snake, which I get is how the training goes initially but that video doesn't show the outcome of the training IMO. The Doberman leaps back from the scent of the snake but they don't say whether she was shocked then or not.

It's not the same training though. The use of electric fencing for dogs, as per your post above, also requires a physical fence that the dog can clearly see and is always there, not like a snake, and it goes back to what I said above about electric fences.

Also, I'm still not clear on whether the modern collars are supposed to actually cause pain, which proponents seem to be saying they don't (see Denis Carthy's post about TENS machines), or more of a cue in the form of a low level stimulation.

when you watch the video from the Perth guys it shows that the first step is to let the dog sniff different locations where he can find treats...one of the locations / holes has the snake, when the dog gets there the trainer hits the button. The dog even doesn't see the snake...he just get the scent. 'Never say never', but with a well thought out trainings methodology - and what the guys are showing in the video is very convincing - I don't believe that such an approach would trigger the fight instinct of the dog. If the dog really would get into fight mode while doing the above, then this methodology is not for him, but I doubt that this single e-shock would damage the dog or would make bad things worse. Hmm, but then how can the trainer be sure that the snake's scent is what the dog is focused on when the shock is delivered? I can see what Corvus is saying about unitended fallout in that case. With an electric fence it seems much more clear cut, the animal is touching the ground (which touches all the time without experiencing a shock) and the fence, it feels the shock come through it's nose where it is touching, it stops touching the fence and the shock stops, so it is quite clear what the action is that causes the shock. For a dog sniffing around smelling and touching all sorts of things and the shock coming from a third place (the neck) it could be much less clear.

Just bumping this question as I'd really like to know the answer.