Longcoat

The are plenty of dogs of various breeds that have the genetic instincts to maim and kill, the studies are wrong, nonesense infact. The difference is in the raising and training dogs of this nature that makes them safe.

Unfortunately, these incidents which appear to the general public as frenzied attacks from dogs out of control causing horrific injury if not reported rightly or wrongly as Pit Bull's, they will be Bull something most of the time. Most people do think Pit Bull's are a terrible dangerous breed which is the general problem intensified when these attacks occur.

perhaps they did - and didn't think it would escalate:perhaps this was a first and last;if she was unknown to the dog- something may have happened to stress /antagonise the dog.... Very sad for everyone. Those powerful jaws -guess she's lucky it was limbs and not head. Only the owners can prevent these type of attacks and when they happen, the owners have obviously failed their responsibilities.

GSD's are very people reliant and can live happily in a one bedroom flat providing they are exercised regularly. Ours have never used yard space to exercise and amuse themselves and generally follow one of us around and lay where ever a family member is in the house. I don't believe space is relevent keeping a GSD, but taking them for exercise, walks, runs, swimming, organised training is essential. They are very much dogs that like to go where ever you go and can play up when left alone for long periods as do many other breeds.

Poor woman What I can't understand is that surely dogs capable of such horrific attack, the owners would have seen aggressive behaviour surface before the real deal is done???. Surley they know that the particular dog has aggression issues

That sounds quite reasonable to me. Most of those points are items which the majority of breeders are aware of, and do anyhow. No one wants to breeds diseased dogs, dogs which can't whelp, or care for pups. I dislike that the assumption of PDE, and spin offs that registered breeders are all dishonest, lying idiots, who know nothing, and have no regard for the dogs, which is far from the case. I dislike all breeders being demonised by people who have nfi about the ethos of purebred dogs ... which is exactly the same as the ethos of purebred anything. We need to remember that it is breeders who brought the dogs to where they are. Breeders make mistakes, new breeders may need to learn more. Most breeders will choose the best stud dog, and that may or may not be the dog with the most points. Health, conformation, temperament and suitabilitity for the bitch are more important to most breeders than show wins, although show wins are important too. eg, breeder I know has a Gr Ch and imp ch in the kennel. Last litter was by an unshown dog, "because he was the best for THAT bitch". And that is how most breeders think. Shows give people an opportunity to see the dogs, and get an idea about them, but that is not the only criteria breeders choose for using a dog at stud. I think breeders themselves are the ones to decide whether to linebreed or outcross, because they are the ones who know the dogs and the lines. Genetic diversity - I would actually like some definitive proof that there is a problem before we throw our aprons over our heads and scream and wail. There is no definitive proof - saying "things will get worse" doesn't cut it with me. Where is the proof? We are importing dogs from o/s with different lines and using them and it occurs to me that I have a dog which is, as far as I know, unrelated to any other dog in the state. Line bred dogs as a rule have no problems - if you have a good line, it makes perfect sense to go back into that line to continue to produce good dogs. Norwegian regulations would be fine with me. Interesting point Jed which makes perfect sense to use the best dog for a particular bitch. However, you see often in some breeds a particular dog that nearly every show kennel has used for stud usually an imported dog which appears to be the flavour of the month. Surely this dog cannot be the best dog for every bitch in all these cases is what I question???. It appears the dog produces a show winning litter, then nearly every kennel wants a litter sired by this dog???......I may be wrong but it's certainly how it appears

Temperament: The German Shepherd Dog must be even tempered, well balanced (with strong nerves), self assured, totally at ease (except when provoked) and good natured, as well as attentive and easy to train. He must possess courage, combativity and toughness in order to be suitable as a companion, guard, service, herding dog and Schutzhund. Tell us how GSD's are called in and win shows when the requirements of the standard are neither tested or confirmed Jed???.

Shelle, what you are not accepting is that when the dog improves it's behaviour like Shyla does wearing a head collar, the reason the behaviour improves is because the head collar is aversive. To test that, tie a ribbon loosely on her tail instead and see if she walks on a loose leash???. It's not because she wears something that improves the behaviour, it's the aversion from what is worn that changes the behaviour. My boy went nuts when the prong collar came out.........wow walkies but he also copped some corrections from it too. I could say by his reaction getting the prong out of cupboard that he loved his prong, but he hated it's corrective action being the reason he behaved himself For what it's worth, I know damn well like many others involved in this thread that we could easily train Shyla to walk perfectly on a loose leash without a head collar which is frustrating to see people using equipment that isn't necessary and knowing that it's use will compromise further training potential. Once you master leash obedience on an ordinary collar, any other training activity will be so much easier

I do the same thing Huski I have reached a point of saying "hey" and my dog stops, turns around an looks at me, then I will command "here" and he comes back and is praised for doing so. Far better than chastising I have found. In a training routine if he makes a mistake, I say "wrong", turn around and repeat the routine from the beginning. Yelling at and smacking dogs IMO doesn't get the best results.

A focus exercise isn't difficult. You can simply hold a treat in front of your face, use the dog's name and reward the dog for looking in your eyes. Prolong the time and phase out the lure and bingo.. dog looks to you on cue. Some serious obedience folk put the food in their mouths and spit it out for the dog during a heel work pattern. Sounds gross but gee it works. Their dogs eyes never leave their faces. If you can get eye focus on command, you don't need to spit food at the dog in heel

You can also use this exercise at mealtime. When feeding her make her sit and "look" at you, with full eye contact. You can start with just a few seconds and then gradually increase the time you would like her to look at you. I do this exercise with my food obsessed GR and I can now put his chicken frame in his bowl and he will immediately sit in front of it and watch me intently waiting for me to give him permission to eat Sorry to go OT just had to agree with Longcoat We do the same at meal times gsdog2 with our GSD and GR, works a treat

There's only pressure on the dogs muzzle if they pull against the leash! Otherwise the noose is loose and they are free to pant, bark, etc. If my dog were to keep pulling in a halti I would NOT keep using one and it would be an indicator that it's the wrong tool for that particular dog. Yes but that's my point Shelle. If the dog doesn't pull in it at all then why do they even need it? And if the dog doesn't pull in the head collar but then then pulls when you remove it and use a flat collar, then obviously the head collar is contantly aversive to the dog when he/she is wearing it and that is what's causing the change in behaviour. Anyhow, this is not to say that I think that you or anyone else is 'wrong' or a 'bad owner' for choosing to use a head collar on your dog (as in your case you are quite obviously a responsible owner with a happy, healthy dog ). But I do think that there are better options out there. JMO That's a very good explanation, very true

You can get through quite a few months of training sometimes before someone tells you that. I've seen people at my club make it all the way into a trialling class before they learned that halti's aren't permitted in the trialling ring. And by then they basically have to start from scratch all over again! And what a waste of time having trained the wrong way if you decide to trial your dog We often have people arrive at our club with prong collars which are not permitted either and the handlers argue that their dog is prong trained and should be allowed. But the point is, I have never seen a dog yet that pulled and misbehaved with the prong removed do so for more than two training nights. All the prong trained dogs, easily learned to behave on a fixed collar perfectly

"It depends on the dog and owner" is where things go wrong. If the owner has a pulling dog as someone else has mentioned with a disability or some extreme case, yes a head collar may be the best for that person to walk their dog, I agree. But there are no "halti" dogs or any dog that can't be trained to walk on a collar and loose leash either by positive reinforcement or aversive correction or combination of both methods, either way any dog will learn what is required. If the dog is not responding to learn a loose leash walk, there is either a handler problem or a wrong training method that needs to be addressed. The suggestion of a head collar to correct the problem especially to a novice owner, is very poor advice IMO.

This is just my opinion Bindii, but the average person owning a dog takes on an obligation to train a dog in basic obedience for the sake of the dog, themselves, and everyone else who comes into connection with that dog. Loose leash walking, sit, come and stay is not particularly hi-tech training, infact most 10 year old children can master the technique when taught correctly which should be part and parcel of dog ownership. Teaching a loose leash walk free of bandaid equipment halti's etc, also teaches a higher level of general control that will spill over into other obedience activities in the home and back yard. Foundation training done properly I believe is a must for general obedience that every pet dog should attain and every owner should master.

IMHO, there seems to be too many supposed trainers suggesting contraptions to train a dog to loose leash walk Leash walking is very basic obedience that can be easily achieved with a collar on any dog with any competent trainer. In extreme situations with a strong dog, a prong collar or slip collar will help, but harnessess, halti's etc used as a permanent measure to control a dog on leash is nonesense really and doesn't help a novice handler learn obedience basics properly.

Perfect!!!, not to hijack your thread Shelle, but that intent staring needs to be reinforced and rewarded and to hold the stare as long as possible. It's a great step in teaching a competition heel gaining eye focus from the dog Interesting! I usually always stare and then she breaks the stare, I guess cos she sees me as alpha? When she stares at you like that, say "look" for example and praise her........."gooooood girl" and give her a treat. Teach her what "look" means and when she stares at your eyes with a "look" command, she gets rewarded. She gets the treat for making eye contact. If she breaks eye contact withhold the treat and command "look" again and increase the time before you give the treat. It's a great focus exercise Shelle, then when she can hold a stare on command, you can start walking and teach a focused heel. :D

*In the same way a check chain or halti works for many dog owners. These are the dogs you must do something else for. I think we're actually agreeing and have been the whole time If it works for the dog, let them use it. The only thing i don't agree with is pain/discomfort being any more than that of other tools such as a check or martingale - because the discomfort is only there until the dog works out how to stop it, the method works the same regardless of which you use. I also disagree that you have to stop using it after a while even if it's working perfectly fine, even if the dog seems comfortable, if it doesn't pull, and if you have no plans to ever need your dog to walk well without a lead (such as obedience trialing etc) No one's explained that one fully Bindii, well trained obedient dogs shouldn't need a leash at all and will work under voice control which is what good handlers and trainers work towards. There was another thread recently about leash couplings snapping and equipment failure which happens resulting in a loose dog. Is the halti trained dog going to recall or stay by your side on the centre island of a busy road???. If you need any equipment to maintain obedience, the dog is not yet trained effectively. Leash pulling is common to the novice handler, so common and frustrating that companies have capitalised on this by designing contraptions for management of the behaviour. The head collar is NOT a training tool, it has been tried and tested over and over again by experienced and accomplished trainers and handlers with the same result. It simply "manages" a behaviour and nothing else. Ask any accomplished trainer or handler, not a trainer's assistant from an obedience club, a trainer/handler that has achieved something in their career, a proper K9 specialist trainer who can achieve millimetre perfection in dog obedience off leash with titles under their belt. NONE will recommend head collars for any dog to achieve a loose leash walk because quite simply, a loose leash walk is not that hard to train when you learn how to do it :D

Ask the dog trainer to teach you to train a dog not to pull???.

Perfect!!!, not to hijack your thread Shelle, but that intent staring needs to be reinforced and rewarded and to hold the stare as long as possible. It's a great step in teaching a competition heel gaining eye focus from the dog

Same here :rolleyes: I use the gentle leader and love it, my girl does NOT fight it and never gets her neck or head pulled or tugged in such a way that it would injure her. It says in that article to see if the dog becomes happy and lively once the gentle leader comes off (meaning it kills their mental state), umm NO my girl does not react any different to the gentle leader being on or off.. that's cos I haven't abused her with it on! She has no issues with it AT ALL, so for some people it DOES work.. and some it doesn't. I think the anti halti people have to accept the people who like using them and use them properly and don't use them in any way that would injure their dog and let them be I think choker chains can be just as bad in the wrong hands, the yanking and jerking on the neck could be devastating, it's all in the way these tools are used. I LOVE not having to have sore hands from a puller and having to hear my dog choking on the end of a tight collar and I LOVE going on our walks now, we have fun and they are never negative, always positive I have a flat collar on her neck also so if she was to freak out or go mental in a situation where the gentle leader would be jerking on her face I would immediately grab the flat collar and contain her that way. Not that I have ever had to! A simple test Shelle, take Shyla for a walk on a flat collar and see if she behaves the same as wearing the head collar and doesn't pull. If she pulls on the flat collar as she did previously, the head collar isn't teaching her to behave and is working as an aversive measure when she has it on. It's naive to believe that the head collar doesn't inflict pain as the pain from pulling when wearing the head collar is what makes it work. The dog doesn't pull wearing a head collar because pulling hurts and they behave through discomfort avoidance. The difference with a choker, prong collar, martingale etc when used correctly is that discomfort is applied only when the dog pulls for a short sharp duration, otherwise there is no restriction imposed on a loose leash. In a head collar, there is constant restriction along with the strap over the dog's snout to contend with also. The object of a training tool is to teach the dog a behaviour and then discard it once the behaviour is learned. Loose leash walking can also be achieved without aversives at all from teaching handler focus with food, praise and games.

I find it hard to believe that no amount of training can stop a dog from pulling on the leash. There are many trainers out there who won't use head collars and can still teach dogs not to pull... Even if you do use a halti you should still be using a training program along with it. I personally don't like head collars (I have no problem with many other training tools out there) but I wouldn't recommend them for 'any' dog that pulls on the leash... there are many pros and cons to head collars including the risk of injury that presents with their use that would make me reluctant to use them, especially with certain types of dogs (i.e. dogs that are prone to lunging). ETA: ILK I agree it is important the dog gets a walk, but head collars are so common place now I see them misused constantly, and used instead of the owner actually training their dog. Some dogs find them highly aversive (including my own dog) and whilst the walk may be enjoyable for the owner because the dog isn't pulling, it can be most unpleasant for the dog, if they are kind of dog who find head collars very aversive and spend the whole walk being 'corrected'. I totally agree Huski :rolleyes:

There are many reasonable dog trainers out there like there are poor trainers and great trainers, but I am yet to know of a great trainer who is formally accomplished in high level K9 activities to ever recommend or use a head collar to teach a dog to walk nicely on leash. Most accomplished trainers despise head collars and the one's recommending halti's are trainers that I would question are the right trainers to be assisting me with my dog's behaviour. Did I not say we "tried" a halti. An accomplished trainer has seen it all and is willing to try what suits the dog & owner. I also stated that my dog is now perfect on leash!! Don't be bias against one product, because what may not work for one will work for another. The most important thing is that the dog gets a walk. The accomplished trainers I have ever worked with don't make compromises for handlers that won't do what they are told as the trainers focus is teaching the handler how to train the dog. They don't recommend head collars to save a handler administering a leash correction if the trainer believes a leash correction is best for that particular dog.

Many councils do classify protection trained dogs as dangerous requiring the collar, muzzle etc of course if you declare the dog is protection trained, but a properly trained dog given the high level of obedience would be difficult to prove it's formal training should questions arise. A good protection trained dog should act no differently than a well behaved pet from an onlookers perspective.

There are many reasonable dog trainers out there like there are poor trainers and great trainers, but I am yet to know of a great trainer who is formally accomplished in high level K9 activities to ever recommend or use a head collar to teach a dog to walk nicely on leash. Most accomplished trainers despise head collars and the one's recommending halti's are trainers that I would question are the right trainers to be assisting me with my dog's behaviour.