mita

Yes, lists like that aren't terribly useful for drawing conclusions that might lead to improved community safety from dog bites. First, the numbers aren't calibrated with numbers of that 'breed' in the community. Second, the breed labelling itself is 'rubbery'. Not wanting to drive a gap between purebreds & those that are not. But it'd be interesting if a list could break-down the breeds into those with documented papers & those not. There's be some reason to hypothesize that purebreds might be less represented. Might not be.... but it'd be a fair call to test. Third, other factors associated with dog biting/attacks are not listed there. And the evidence is that they are what counts. There's an excellent listing of those & how they all interact.... in a paper on dog bite/attack safety from the AVA. I'm also wondering if the rise in canine aggression being recorded is also associated with more dogs in the community & also with more systems having been set up to record bites/attacks? That's not downplaying the problem, of course.

Good on you, SG, for posting the reference to Svartburg's full paper. You beat me to it. This is a highly significant work. Should be circulated widely.

Chloe, good to see lots of advice coming from people who know their breeds well. I've found that responsible registered breeders tend to be frank about the pros & cons of their particular breed .... when seeing how it will match particular lifestyles, owners & settings.

My tibbie girls have a party trick.... they can lip read. All people have to do is mouth 'I love you'.... & they will run over into that person's arms. :)

I think your logic is flawed. The pedigree is proof of ancestry. It's not a window onto breeding practices - which is why finding the right pup should be a two step process: 1. Select the breed you're interested in. 2. Find a knowledgeable, responsible breeder. We are on opposite perspectives. Mine is on educating consumers (as I am) on how to track thro' to possible benefits in buying a purebred dog 1. We need to know the background for knowledge & responsibility of purebred breeders. 2. Pedigrees set out a chart of descent of purebred dogs.... registered with a Kennel Association. 3 Breeders' knowledge about the dogs in that lineage provides data for their making decisions about breeding for temperament/conformation/ health 4 Breeders' interactions with their dogs set down a base for their behavioural learning. 5 When we select a breed, we will want general information on its breed characteristics & history. 6 When selecting a breeder, we will want to ask questions about 5... but most importantly suss out how they've applied 3 & 4. Point is that the majority of those steps are associated with purebred dogs ... not pet shop dogs, puppy-farmed dogs or backyard bred dogs. All of which is what I advise fellow pet owners .... & provide word of mouth references to breeders in my selected breed CHOICE (Australian Consumers Association) has a guide to people buying a puppy/dog. It's towards the above direction ... but could well be expanded & updated.

As i said.... further down.... it's the use to which the pedigree, as a record of descent.... is used in making breeding decisions. Those decisions rest on information that's not directly written in that chart. Information about health. temperament, conformation characteristics of individual dogs.... which is kept in breeders' heads or in their written records. Which is why my emphasis is on breeder knowledge & behaviour.... in any education or public relations about purebred dogs & the possible benefits in owning them. Except that we're trying to market to people who will probably never make breeding decisions - so the value of the pedigree must be in what pet owners will get from it. I'm interested in educating consumers about what possible benefits they can get from buying purebred dogs. Pet owners.... as I am.... get value from a pedigree as it's the gateway to finding out what breeders know & do and how that can lead to producing quality.... or less than. And how there's reliable research which backs this.

As i said.... further down.... it's the use to which the pedigree, as a record of descent.... is used in making breeding decisions. Those decisions rest on information that's not directly written in that chart. Information about health, temperament, conformation characteristics of individual dogs.... which is kept in breeders' heads or in their written records. Which is why my emphasis is on breeder knowledge & behaviour.... in any education or public relations about purebred dogs & the possible benefits in owning them.

Early socialisation is not necessarily a benefit of purebred dogs per se - it is a benefit of responsible breeding. The breeding with care and the early socialisation of puppies is a very large part of my personal definition of ethical and responsible. The remaining parts revolve around efforts to make sure that the puppies you have bred go to suitable homes and you provide those homes with safety back up in some form if the homes become unsuitable later. My emphasis was deliberately on the behaviour of breeders in making breeding decisions. Breeder behaviour includes interacting with their dogs.... & giving them access to wider environments. Research exists on the extent to which breeders of purebreds tend to do this & what's the outcome for dogs. There's even interesting research indicating that purebred dogs that have been shown tend to have certain characteristics which go across breeds. That certainly resonates with my practical experience because we've always adopted ex-show dogs. They've shown those very characteristics. So, into the mix of possible benefits when adopting a purebred dog .... & for some lifestyles... goes traits associated with those that have a history of being shown. I rarely see any mention of research findings about breeder behavours associated with purebred dog breeding (& showing)... & the consequences for the behaviour of dogs ... included in any discussion re possible benefits. Yet it's one of the major reasons why I buy & recommend to others, purebred dogs.... from certain breeders.

I think Kirislin is right.... but it's so tempting to see the understanding going deeper. :) Brisbane people owned a Tibetan Spaniel, Zou Chai, who was born & bred in Singapore, before coming to Australia. They were at a festival in New Farm Park, with crowds of people. Zou, wandered off among the crowd.... & his owners found he'd joined a bunch of young people. They were overseas students at the University of Qld... from Singapore & they were talking in their own language. Did make us wonder....! :)

'Pedigree' just means a table of descent. Can be of people .... or just about anything, even cars ... but mostly now attached to purebred dogs. And it doesn't mean anything about quality of dogs listed in that table. It's just a chart. It's how a pedigree is used that counts ... & what information exists outside that table about the dogs' characteristics, which can be for good or ill. However that information is kept... in breeders' heads or in records they keep ... that's the data for making decisions about breeding. Quality comes from breeders' making best decisions they can about breed characteristics like conformation, temperament & health. And also from how they interact with their dogs & puppies to provide socialization & environmental experiences. That hardly gets referred to re 'quality' in purebred dogs. Yet those neural pathways laid down.... especially when young... via learning ... is just as 'physical' as conformation. And hugely related to behaviours of dogs. This is backed by extensive research.... but rarely gets mentioned in accounts of benefits that can be associated with purebred dogs.

OT, too. Our Sheltie was called 'Horse' most of the time. As in ... 'as big as a horse.' She grew above breed standard. :)

Good on you. The rate of uptake of the vaccination is critical, too ... for it to remain commercially viable to remain in production.

I have pet p/b Tibetan Spaniels & that's very much the life they lead. They were well socialised with their breeder's grandchildren... so are very good with children. So, whatever breed you decide on, look for a breeder who raises their dogs in a small scale, home style environment... & gives them access to all sorts of experiences, like children, visitors, other animals. Socialization, like this, is terribly important for preparing puppies/dogs to be confident & good natured as companion pets. One of the Victorian registered Tibbie breeders is very much in that direction ... so she could be a starting point for asking for information about Tibetan Spaniels. She's on DOL. Here's a bunch of p/b Tibbies collected together for the cover of the Tibetan Spaniel Association of Victoria Calendar. Shows how there's a range of colours & individual 'looks' within the breed standard. Click to enlarge:

Like my Sheltie girl... who had something to say about everything. But our Sheltie boy was the opposite ... never a peep out of him.

Chloe, I know all sorts of factors would need to be looked at to match with your family & lifestyle... but I want to do a little leap! :) I've met absolutely charming Standard Poodles .... so I hope DOLers with experience with the breed can tell you further. And also consider the Smooth Collie. Once again, I hope an 'expert' can fill you in more. Best wishes finding what you want.

Just my thoughts, Steve. But I think the demand in the p/b breeding world will always tend to outweigh supply. For the very reason that it's a niche world where the major goals are not connected with making commercial gains. It's not based on 'number of units' produced.... but on quality in breeding & raising dogs according to standards and being in communication with others, via showing & breed activities. Those goals need to be spelled out, via public relations & education.... with the rider that a purebred dog can be worth waiting for. For all those good reasons. Be assured that the pet-buying public.... who's done their research.... welcome registered breeders who are proud to describe the high standards they work for, with their dogs. Setting out what they do... & why. I've found that registered breeders websites... & their notices on places like Dogzonline, are increasingly spelling out what they believe & what they do. When these breeders are telling the unvarnished truth, they deserve bouquets not swipes. :) I'm forever sending pet owners to read some of them, so they can see the special features of what is a niche 'market'. And always will be.

Very nicely said. Your emphasis is more on public relations and education.... rather than marketing. And I think you're spot on... in that the whole point of purebred breeding is that it's not commercial. And marketing is designed to fit the commercial world. In fact, the evidence appears to be that it's the very non-commercial nature of purebred dog breeding, that allows the best of that world to show thro'. For the dogs themselves in terms of welfare, for the pet -buying public in terms of likely better socialised companion dogs & breeder support, and for the the breeders themselves who become involved in a highly professional & passionate hobby alongside like-minded people. All that determines the goals of breeding purebreds, not commercial interests. Disclaimer.... by saying p/breeding is not commercial (at its best), I'm not saying that the breeders shouldn't practise good business skills in what they do.

I just looked up the 2013 'Ekka Canine Schedule for Tibetan Spaniels.... so I checked Newfies as well. Newfies are on Sunday, 11 August, 2013. Full schedule, too, http://www.royalqueenslandshow.com.au/media/39620/2013_canine_schedule.pdf (BTW Tibetan Spaniels are on Friday 9 August.)

Talk about over-generalizations. I guess their follow-up article for the next day was about people. And how all red heads have quick tempers, blondes are none too bright, plump people are lazy & small men want to boss everyone. Everybody would be stunned if such stupid stuff were published. And consider it downright dangerous in producing totally wrong social stereotypes. Which is what they've done about dog breeds. Dogs are social animals.... same as people. And this article hasn't a clue about how the behaviour of both dogs & people is shaped by their social environment/training... as well as individual genetic traits. We've owned working-type breeds... like Shelties. And had 2 radically different. One who would/ve 'worked' sheep all day, if he could (he had to settle for the cats)... & another whose idea of 'work' was to holler for her humans to come fix things. My brother's 2 p/b ACDs were the same. The girl, Jessie, would've organized the whole world, if she could. The boy, Harry's, idea of work was to watch others do it & bark suggestions from the sidelines (preferably while lying down). Stupid articles like this, will see people buying dogs based on a stereotype.... then sitting back waiting for the stereotype to get to work for them.

Such a tragic loss of a lovely couple ...hearbreaking for friends & family. I remember reading in one of the newspaper accounts about them, that they dearly loved their dogs. And that handsome pair sure look much loved & so well cared for. I hope very much that the word keeps getting around so they can go to a new loving home. Good on the ABC for publishing that request.

Exactly. The way it should be. Good dogs saved & the community protected.

Good to hear something that actually works... & some pounds showing how.

Ah. I think I've been brain-damaged from the stuff that comes out of Victoria re dogs. I must say, I've been impressed by the lovely, lovely natured 'bully' type dogs that come up for adoption at AWL Qld. Few years back, when applying BSL was at its hysterical worst, those dogs would've been condemned on sight

Sorry that is crap. The dog was unmicrochipped, therefore it was not a restricted dog at the time of impound. The rangers chose to try and apply an unscientific process of visual breed ID to the dog. Sorry.... but what Trisven wrote is factual. I'm puzzled why you called it 'crap'. The dog did not have a chance of being rehomed, because the the Council rangers had categorized him as a restricted breed. BSL legislation relies totally on a visual appraisal, as you say. And even worse, from a science point of view, it's based on a belief that the appearance of a dog, not its behaviour, is predictive of aggressive traits. Different matter entirely if the dog had failed a behavioral assessment....

Exactly... so any possibility of rehoming was ruled out.