mita

Still thinking of you... I'm in awe of how you're doing everything humanly possible ... & more. Do you have another dog she knows well, to take out searching with you? Sometimes, if they're hiding because they're frightened, they'll come out at the scent of their dog 'friend'. Also put a little pile of dry dog food at your front gate. Someone on DOL once suggested putting up a good sized poster on your own front fence. Makes so much sense if a person driving/walking by knows something.... I've since passed that on to others & it's been useful. I know so well the feeling when a small dog just vanishes.

You're right. When something horrific happens, like the dreadful death of the 2 yr old boy killed by a mastiff x, then there's an equally extreme reaction. And it usually comes from someone with media clout but who's also ignorant about dogs & dog behaviour around people. Same thing happened years back in Q'ld, when a lovely elderly lady was killed by what was said to be pitbulls jumping over the fence from next door. Of course, it was horrific & prevention of further horrors needed to be looked at. But the extreme reaction went straight after the type of dog. And the result was BSL in Qld....which covered pitbull 'types' & an unscientific checklist...all to be PTS on sight alone, nothing about behaviour. At last, even the CEO of the RSPCA spoke out.... that many totally innocent family pets were being seized & PTS. Since then the madness in applying the law has gone off a bit .... but it still remains in place. Now NSW is having a similar extreme reaction. No analysis of the situation they're responding to.... & the part played by humans. A dog bred & trained for pigging was allowed to be free around a small child.... of the age that's most vulnerable to dogs. If someone left a 2 yr old child alone on the edge of a busy road... & the child was struck by a car. Would all cars be sent to the wreckers? It would be such a welcome change to see reactions... & what appears in the press... to be a bit more rational. The Sydney Morning Herald did well, with a well-balanced & informative article in yesterday's paper. Meanwhile, the worst of stuff like Miranda Devine's let loose, takes up air space from really useful information to the public.

I see you've put the ad on Gumtree. A little dog wouldn't have gone far on her own steam... get as much notification as you can up around the local area. I' m sure you've done that... with posters & flyers in mail boxes. You've probably done this, too, but just in case... a small dog can get stuck or locked in somewhere around your property. Search the most unlikeliest places... anywhere that a small dog could fit in, get blocked in & or fall in. That happened to us with a small dog. Also let the RSPCA Qld Lost & Found data base know about her. Someone might've picked her up & look there for a match (it's on the Net). http://www.rspcaqld.org.au/LostAndFound/ I know how horrible it feels when a little dog is missing. Everything crossed that she's found. http://www.gumtree.com.au/s-ad/murphys-creek/dogs-puppies/missing-lost-pomeranian/1025405726

Thats 17 months ago. Perhaps the updated reports from this month might be a bit more relevant? I deliberately used past tense.. 'has had'. Saying that the RSPCA's suspicions were published in the past... & the article has a date. They were then taking the matter seriously & had some degree of certainty, involving the south-east. Which means that the RSPCA Victoria would be a good source to enquire if there's any current up-dated information, especially about that same area. There's been a long time in-between for further playing out of that investigation. Phone them up & ask.

RSPCA Victoria has had suspicions about dog fighting in Victoria's south-east: http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/rspca-probe-on-dog-fighting-ring-20120221-1tlqk.html

Thanks, korbin. Just the one. I hope it's not a one-off ... we need this kind of information being repeated, again & again, to the public. There's some more things that could be added on.... like further spot-on US research & also info from medical sources. Hope this is the beginning of information with a lot more substance.... than chasing dog breeds or sizes. Yeah, we all know that responsible management of those types of dogs will reduce attacks, but what they are missing is that you can't make pig hunters out of any dog, you can't make protection dogs out of any dog, a dog must have the genetic capabilities to either be trained to attack and fight or attack and fight instinctively and the point is, the same owners with dogs that don't have the genetic capabilities for unprovoked attacks, these horrific incidents wouldn't happen You could have saved yourself risking concussion if you'd read both the SMH article (with link provided by korbin) & what I said in telling about it. The article sets out the interacting factors which shape a dog's behaviour....provided by the AVA. And that includes genes. To reinforce that point, I wrote about the person who makes the decision about selection for breeding: They (i.e.the SMH) have an excellent article pointing out owners (& the first owner who does the breeding) largely shape how dogs turn out.

Thanks, korbin. Just the one. I hope it's not a one-off ... we need this kind of information being repeated, again & again, to the public. There's some more things that could be added on.... like further spot-on US research & also info from medical sources. Hope this is the beginning of information with a lot more substance.... than chasing dog breeds or sizes.

It was thanks to you... & tt, I think, too.... that's he's now not a puppy farmer's 'stock'. You're right that his new mum & dad are very experienced & open to advice. I know his 'mum' & we've had some interesting conversations in the past. Hope his mum recovers soon.... BTW Brissie tibbie owners met a couple of Tibetan Buddhist monks who told them that tibbies were the Buddha's little dogs. And that he specially blesses anyone who helps a tibbie. So....that lovely line of Billy's friends... consider yourselves blessed. :)

On a smaller scale, an honest & reliable rescue I know of in a country area, has managed to persuade a puppy farmer to pass over some small dogs. With our present laws, there's nothing that stops large-scale puppy farming per se. It fits with 'primary industry'. Only when conditions are horrendous, do the animal cruelty laws kick in... with the authorities then able to intervene. I agree with you that these large-scale puppy farms are pouring out puppies & dogs, to be mopped up by someone else. The issue is the operation of puppy farming. No laws address it or regulate it. They claim to be breeding companion dogs in those large-scale, commercial places. But recent US research showed that their puppies went on to have more health & behaviour problems, than dogs bred in small scale, home-style non-commercial settings. So they're not only poor places for dogs, they're also a poor source for pet dogs. The public needs to know this.... so consumers can vote with their feet.

Good on you, BlackJaq for posting all that information.... the kind that should be got to the public. And bless the Sydney Morning Herald this morning. They have an excellent article pointing out owners (& the first owner who does the breeding) largely shape how dogs turn out. Lots of great quotes that shed light about dog bites/attacks on young children. All the stuff that usually never gets into the public arena. They quote the factors that interact, leading to dog bites/attacks, provided by the Veterinary Association. And point out what makes young children, a most vulnerable group.

I'm glad you couldn't help it! Those knuckly knees ... he sort of changes gears with them. :) But it's that head, ears & face. He's only a baby, but he's so beautiful.

Brandi is the prettiest sheltie. Shelby, I'm so sorry for your loss What love & joy you brought each other.

He's just beautiful. He's got a 'wise old soul' look in his eyes. Is that a sighthound thing? I love that about the greyhounds next door... you can feel peace by just looking into their eyes. I'm glad he's safe in care now... & with true friends.

Couldn't come from a more qualified person. There's a legend that says tibetan spaniels are the Buddha's own little dogs. They play around his feet, make him laugh & warn him of any danger. So he takes special care of tibbies in trouble. He sure seems to be lurking somewhere for Billy... with so many people stepping up for him.... with exactly what he needs. :)

RP. I've got happy tears here. I think I know the lovely folk where Billy's going on trial. He couldn't be given a chance by nicer, more genuine people. That description of his behaviour is so 'Tibbie'. They are such 'buddhist' little dogs It's like owning the Dalai Lama on 4 legs... complete with the big smile, except tibbies do it with those plumey tails. I love how he made friends with the lamb. Maybe he thought it was another tibbie! Good to know he's got a fellow tibbie nearby to bond with. He sounds like he'd love playdates. Maybe Pam from the TSAV could put his new family in touch with other tibbie pet owners.... for some more play???? Lily the tibbie next door & our cat, Sarah, are the greatest of playmates. They don't care who's chasing who.... so long as there's a game going on. When they catch up, there's kisses & licks. Thank you... & Cheddar ... for all the help you gave little Billy.

It's sounds so clinical to point it out....after all a little girl has severe facial injuries & a dog is dead. But it fits the stats of high risk.... the little girl is in the age group most vulnerable. She's in the most peak age group for being bitten. Where children are closer face to face level with a dog. They also have finer skin & less 'tough' tissue, so the facial injuries tend to be really severe. So extra vigilance is needed with young children & dogs. I'm not making any comment on that case.... who knows what happened. And it's not a matter of 'blame'. But when those high risk factors are known, then it at least helps in managing children & dogs somewhat. It also can fit in with the golden rules to be drummed into young children. Like don't wake a dog that's sleeping. Don't go near a dog that's eating. Don't put your face close to a dog. Etc. Here's the stats.... so you can see this little girl is squarely in a vulnerable group. Research from Prince Charles Hospital. The annual incidence of dog bites requiring emergency department hospital treatment is 12.9 per 10 000 persons, with children aged 5-9 having an incidence of 60.7 per 10 000 persons aged 5-9 years. Face, neck and head bites are more frequent in children. Those stats also show how relatively peaceful dogs tend to be around people. If only injury rates done by humans to humans could be so low.

Ahem!!!! What about my dream of a tribe of tibetan spaniels. How much more to cuddle would you want than this lot? Here's my dream out walking: (click to enlarge)

Me, too. That's a lovely pic of you & your dog....doesn't need words! :) My Tibbie girls, retired showgirls from breeders who raised them as part of the family, have the loveliest, warm-hearted, sensible buddhist natures. Can't thing of anything extra they'd need to have. My only problem is stopping myself from having a tribe of them.

We don't know the details. Maybe it was a mutual agreement for a sound reason. Like the wife's situation might not have been immediately dangerous. Just would need some fiddling to free her. So it was better to get the dog sorted first & out of the way. I'm only guessing.

Any news about the lad.

Great that you & Hudson have arrived.... & work's started, with a bang! Have you found any mighty flexible training groups yet for Hudson? With so many people working strange hours & schedules these days, I'd hope there were groups like that.

You're right, Huski. The stats that Roger M supplied above about his method with the gas hiss collar, shows variation. The majority were diverted from the chasing/barking behaviours, but of 2 smaller groups, one lot were severely distressed by it & another group didn't give a damn about the hiss! That's why even when something is found to be statistically successful, it doesn't predict for individual dogs, because there'll be variation. I appreciate you & Cosmolo spelling out your case so clearly for using the e-collar & with whom. And answering questions. I understand you both are not arm-chair thinkers about the collar (as I am), but get called in to help dogs that don't seem to have responded to whatever quality/quantity of rewards/absence of the reward training they've had. May even face PTS or being dumped. I still have grave reservations about the use of e-collars ... but thanks to this thread I understand better how/why the trainers use them. My reservations still come from things like the use of shock is out of step with what we know about learning in general. In humans, the group that lobs up with anti-social behaviours that 'normal' management hasn't touched, are least likely to change with aversive methods. But are likely to get worse. The levels of cortisol studies for the e-collars are a big worry, too. But I noted how Cosmolo said her use was to move quickly as possible to positive reinforcements. So i honestly can't see they're something that just any pet owner should use. So maybe restricted use, like Cosmolo supports? Given that research studies so far don't tend to support their use, I'd like more research on the actual mechanics of the dogs' learning. Maybe uncover other options???

Thanks, Cosmolo. Also LBD for the comments about the vibration option. I found a reference from a dog behaviorist, Roger Mungford. He's used a 'hiss' noise, but very targeted. Radio controlled to the dog's collar. As predictable, there's variation. I'm a determined little digger! I have employed the hiss sound of inert gas release in dog training for over twenty years, initially to deal with unwanted barking (although not distressed or separation-induced barking). There is an enormous variation in sensitivity, where approximately 8% of dogs have no fear or do not respond to the sound of gas-training collars. Another 10% are hypersensitive so would become unhappy wearing the collars but the majority, about 80%, become collar-cued, relaxed and don't bark when wearing the device.

I'm not Cosmolo, but modern e-collar training is about using the collar on the lowest perceivable level for the dog. The dog needs to be taught what the stim means, and many people use them in conjunction with rewards like food or toys. Each dog's working level is different and can change depending on the environment the dog is in, hence why a lot of low output collars have up to 100 levels (or more). Some people use vibration only collars, many e-collars actually come with a vibration option too. But, and I would suggest this would be the same as a loud/aversive noise, many dogs find the vibration more aversive than a low level stim. It can be tricky for some people to understand just over the internet, I find that when people are shown how e-collars work properly in person and feel the stim on themselves it is a lot easier to understand how it is used, and how beneficial they can be. Thank you, huski. Spot on answers to my questions. I'm really interested in that vibration option.... didn't know it existed. Again, I could be wrong.... but it seems a vibration sensation is more about gaining attention rather than giving a feeling of pain. It could cancel out negatives like raising cortisol levels so high. To be honest, I wonder if there's a use for vibration only collars....linked, as Cosmolo does, with as quick as possible move to rewards??? Maybe there needs to be some soundly based alternative to straight out use of e-collars. The UK research, funded by one of their government departments, didn't come up with support.

Cosmolo, thank you. You've answered my questions, spot on. Based on your experience . I could be very wrong.... but you seem to use it at lowest level more to get the dog to focus attention, rather than to produce aversion??? And you intend to then move towards positive reinforcement (rewards). So the dogs you'd see needing this, would have characteristics like.... not responding to most of the rewards options (That was a fair point about over-feeding!). Especially at their current stage. And it'd be a relatively rare occurrence. I see why you find the Victorian limited use OK. So would an e-collar that's only set to the low levels be enough for most pet dog training (especially by owners)? And only then in rare, well-considered cases. Then it couldn't be misused (as some of the literature points out e-collars often are). Also would some other less pleasant stimulus like a certain kind of noise serve the same purpose? Not addressed specifically to you. But there also remains the question for me, that severe behavioral problems can be rooted in an in-born lack of fear of punishment or the unpleasant. If that also occurs in dogs, then shock-type training would tend to get ratcheted up ... with the result that behaviours worsen.