Saffioraire

I see what you are saying 'Ososwift'. After a lot more research, reading and discussion today it seems for breeds such as Shepherds, the lack of relevant hormones caused from early desexing, causing late closure of growth plates - is harm that outweighs any benefit from early desexing (in both males and females). Early desexing is considered age 10 weeks, however it was suggested that even the benchmark of 6 months is also far too young - as many others have suggested on here also. Tubal Ligation may be suitable for an older bitch, but was considered a far too risky and possibly fruitless procedure to be done on a female pup of 10weeks. Vasectomy however was said to be perfectly fine for a male pup of the same age. Given that TL also lends to the female being susceptible to the same medical issues her entire counterpart is, it seems the benefit from the procedure is to inhibit breeding. Unless of course she was then desexed at 12 months (as you were saying? Ososwift). There is much research to suggest that each season increases risk of mammary cancer etc, and age also (in an entire female). Which is why Vets suggest desexing retired brood bitches. So I think I will definitely increase my contracted age of desexing for Vic owners to 13months, to allow owners to choose to let their pups reach a more suitable level of maturity before removing hormones from the body. It seems as though the only viable option so far is to only allow males to leave to interstate homes, done so with a vasectomy, to be desexed at the new owners discretion. !!! I suppose then there are other contractual options, like not signing over the ANKC or Microchip papers until proof of desexing was provided (is this legal?). We also thought about the desexing levy ie. $200 which will be refunded to the VET at the time of procedure as (partial) payment for desexing, with any remainder refunded to the owner. Or even organising future desexing with a particular reputable Vet in the new owners area, with the desexing fee to be taken at time of purchase and paid to the Vet at time of procedure? Does anyone already practice these methods? And if so with how much success?

Do you really want me to get started on people breeding second rate examples of a breed?! I always have the best interests of the dog in mind and heart. Say what you like about me, but this is fact hard and cold. If I did not care I would not search for alternate opinions and options. Not sure what you are talking about letting "second rate examples" go out. I truly hope you are not suggesting that ANY pup bred in my kennel would be second rate, as all pups I breed will be done so with the utmost care and research. You would also be insulting the European breeders of our dogs, as so far we are really only building upon their hard work! There is a difference between desexing a puppy because it is second rate, and because you do not want it to fall into the hands of someone who is not as responsible as yourself. I wish to PREVENT irresponsible breeding which is in my opinion people who breed for reasons other then to better the ANKC White Swiss Shepherd breed. I do screen my buyers as closely as possible, and still keep in touch with almost all owners of previous puppies I have sold, including pups who went under someone elses Kennel prefix as someone elses dogs. Unfortunately there are always people who will deceive you, or who will later have their minds changed, a situation contracts rarely rectify. So to avoid any possible exploitation of my pups I look to means beyond this. You may have missed also that I am looking to this ONLY for pups who are beyond reasonable viewing distance, ie interstate. White Swiss Shepherd Dogs are rare in Australia, and I am committed to the responsible and well thought out expansion of the breed, breeding for numbers is not necessarily breeding for better. I am at a loss to see how I am not willing to expand the gene pool when I have imported 2 dogs and 2 lots of semen, with one more lot of semen on the way. All in the past 2.5 years. ALL Genetically independent of each other! I do not forget where I came from, I bred Australian White German Shepherds - a breed that is in fact genetically different to the European White Swiss Shepherd Dog. I did what I did BEFORE I was informed of many pieces of information which caused me to cease this. Can one not be forgiven for choices they made under the guise of misinformation? So, if you are done with attacks of my character, back to the original point of this thread... (Edited for spelling)

Have you tried other stimulation style experiments like getting a whole lot of kibble, or tastier alternatives like dried liver broken into small pieces, and throwing handfuls around the yard. So then their day is filled with trying to find the little bits of food? There are other party tricks too, a coke bottle with holes filled with kibble works a treat for mine (until she destroys it!) In conjunction with a bit of bamboo fencing might take the excitement/ frustration away to prevent barking. I must admit though that our young kelpie was a horror, he would bark all day at the horses next door (of course they decided to build their stallion paddock along the fence line where our dog run is (they had 80 acres to choose from!) so that didn't help! ) but the citronella collar worked a treat and he barely barks at all now. Unless it is play of course.

I wouldn't imagine so. Apart from the scarring on the site of incision? And of course the risk of undergoing anesthesia. Why would you consider both? Initial to prevent breeding and secondary to adress behavior? Tubal ligation doesn't prevent a bitch from having seasons. I wonder if the council will accept tubal ligation as desexed in terms of registering for a discounted fee? Ok, see this is where I am having problems. Plenty of info on the desex or not to desex debate but I am struggling to find reputable sources of information on the pro's and con's of tubal ligation. Do you have links or articles that go into this Sway? If not that's fine, I will keep looking. It becomes a different argument when TL goes from being 'eliminates breeding ability without inhibiting hormones' to 'TL inhibits breeding but the bitch still cycles and behaves as an entire'. If I were to own a bitch as a pet there is no way in Nelly that I would want her cycling! I do think behavior does come into it strongly, and the outcome would affect the dogs welfare. We have a Kelpie x bitch who was spayed later in life, and she still cocks her leg and wee's over everyone elses 'marks'! Can be a right mole too! We love her, but this attitude in a typical family environment would be too trying for most. (Of course it very well could be the dog and not the desexing, I am aware of that!)

Crogenes are lovely, and often emailed me at ungodly hours to keep me up to date.

I wouldn't imagine so. Apart from the scarring on the site of incision? And of course the risk of undergoing anesthesia. Why would you consider both? Initial to prevent breeding and secondary to adress behavior?

If you are breeding small companion dogs then certainly. But if you are breeding large working breeds it's a different story and there are multiple aspects to consider. I think that is what makes it difficult. That the argument changes with each breed of dog. As was said to me earlier today, the plight of the RSPCA vs the registered breeder is quite different. I have printed off a heap of Journal Articles (Scientific Papers) to trawl through, so if anyone else wants to go over papers PM me and I'll forward on the relevant ones once Im done.

Do you do your own microchipping??? How did you apply for this?

Be nice if you could let us know who you use and how you go. I was a loyal customer to one particular reputable company, however I too am now trying to find a new carrier.

Is your breed small, medium or large? I have found some really interesting literature however it seems more highly researched on smaller dogs.

Lots of hysterical fears. And I do not base my decisions on these. Even if a home does breed with the bitch, it is unlikely they will leave her 'in the corner unassisted'. And bitches can die even under the watch of the most vigilant breeder and anyway GSDs are relatively hardy dogs aren't they? (Do they free whelp, I'm going to assume for the most part that they do). Well done if the bitch has six large litters! Good healthy genes being passed on there. Or maybe there is something wrong with the number six? Mastitis - another emergency there. Why would anything live in the first place only to risk colliding with such dire situations. If breeding dogs makes you feel so guilty that you question the trust of your friends, then maybe you should not breed? I dont mean to sound offensive or rude, but it reads as if breeding dogs may have started to take too much of an emotional toll on yourself. Or maybe I'm just reading more pathos and lament in your post than is intended. A breeder should not need to 'decide which is the more ethical decision to make'. That truth comes from within yourself, and is born from the knowledge and understanding you have of your own dogs and their requirements. Maybe you care too much for what society thinks and not enough for what you think. Why 'hysterical' fears? Maybe just a comparison of situations looking for one alternative that is not so bad as the other. Not every situation has a "good" alternative, so sometimes you must look for the least adverse? I am not sure about GSD's but the Swiss are hardy enough dogs yes, but you would be surprised how many people do just 'leave their dogs in a corner' to whelp. As I said in another post I encountered one situation where a dog was removed from it's 2 day old pups because she was accidentally rolling on them causing death. The pups were fed coles puppy milk twice a day and offered no alternate source of heat (it was not summer!) all 10 died and the mother needed to be put onto valium as she was hysterical. The owner of this dog had her own human child! I agree that even good breeders lose dogs, so to have a sub experienced owner and no help does not offer a positive prognosis! It is not about good or bad genes it is about the welfare of the dog you bred, and ergo are responsible for. If I did not care for the pup after it walked out my gate then I am no better than a puppy farm. Maybe I put too much emotion into my words, but if I am choosing to put my dog into whelp I see the follow up decisions Re. pups as being responsible and accountable for my decisions. I agree that we should make the choice that comes from within, but we all look for guidance to help steer our hearts and minds at some point. Looking to others for their thoughts, to help shape your own, leads to more educated and informed decisions. Whether you choose to go with social opinion or not is an entirely different matter. I can assure you I will do what I deem the best decision regardless of what someone elses opinion is, but if the discussion causes someone to post a journal of scientific articles showing adverse or positive articles for either side, then that may change my mind for the end result is always what is best for the pup!

If the breeder cannot trust you with an entire pup, I wouldn't give them the opportunity to take my money. Their reason for early desexing will be purely generated by self interest anyway, not for concern of the pup's future health and proper development. I dont think this is a fair statement to generalize with. I have always been dead against it up until now, and at the moment I am telling ALL interstate buyers that my pups will only come desexed. WHY? Because so far no one can answer my question "What is crueler to the dog? Early desexing, or the possibility of ending up in irreverent hands and becoming a breeding machine?" Even if your first instinct is to say desexing, think about it. What if the 'girl' has problems during whelping, and she is left in the corner unassisted, and dies? What if she has 6 large litters and then contracts mastitis? Which then goes undiagnosed and she dies from it? It's not a black and white situation. I am not an easy person to buy a pup from, I ask a lot of questions and want a contract signed. Not because I don't trust people, but the opposite! Generally in my life I have been over trusting of people - and so many times I have been burned. And Im not just talking dogs, I'm talking life and dogs. So much so that it has come to me asking FRIENDS to sign things, not because I want this to be so, but because I have made a solemn promise that I will not alter on this forever more, not for the financial or wellbeing of myself, but for the puppies I breed and become eternally responsible for. As a breeder who cares about your dogs you a placed in a hard situation, there are your own expectations of yourself, your potential buyers, societies expectations, and endless journal articles to trawl through to decide which is the more ethical decision to make. Don't paint every breeder with the same brush. Breeding issues are not the only factors that surround ill treatment of a dog. How do you contract around making sure the dog is fed properly, is given warmth, shelter and love, the dog is exercised, is taken to the vet if unwell, the dog is trained and socialised, the dog is vaccinated, wormed, fleed with it's coat taken care of etc etc? So you are saying as long as the dog doesn't suffer any ill effects from breeding, the above doesn't matter? You cant contract these things, which is why you invest a lot of time and effort into making sure you go with what you deem are the right people. At the end of the day you can only do so much, and then ultimately it is out of your hands. But if you can do one more thing that ensures the welfare of the pup then why not do it? I have taken midnight phone calls and driven interstate to visit and help people with their pups, so there is plenty more I care about - this is just one issue that is a difficult one.

Generally if you are losing sleep over something then you are not happy with the situation. Stop listening to what others think, and start listening to what your own self thinks. On 'exploitation' woot woot seriously, I dont think White GSDs can be farmed / kept in cages and bred with success like the little dog. Yes someone can breed with one of your pups and you might detest their breeding practices, they might even have an unregistered litter, or few but apart from upsetting your own apple cart you cannot say that the dog was treated cruely or died a bad end because it was bred and you did not want it to be. Just in response to this for the moment. Firstly they are White Swiss not White GSD's with the difference meaning an ANKC pedigree It is not about upsetting my apple cart as it is about the dogs welfare. You may think they cannot be "bred in cages" but this is not so, there are several breeders in VIC, (as well as other states) that do so quite successfully. One particular one of whom I have encountered several of their dogs, all as rescues. One 'rescue' was almost 12 months, was initially unable to be touched, COULD NOT RUN as he was caged in a crate the best part of his life and the owner advised me that they come on heat every 6 months and it was a good cash cow! I have already had this person call the VCA White Swiss Association asking for ANKC entire adult dogs for sale..... need I go on?! After working at a Vets I have seen the suffering many dogs endure as a result of their owners ignorance. Regardless of whether a girl is bred once or 6 times, if she dies in whelp or loses all of her puppies because she accidentally rolls on one and the owners lock her outside away from her 2 day old pups because she is "intentionally killing them" (true story) and I could have prevented this, then I have not done my job as a breeder to protect my pup. I am now looking further into tubal ligatures/ vasectomy in comparison to desexing, and will go from there.

It has been bought up in General Discussion but I want breeders POV. I'm not uneducated for the basic pro's/ con's of pubescent desexing, but since becoming involved in a breed which faces possible exploitation as a result of their 'rarity' the question now resounds; Is it CRUELER on the dog to desex it early (10 weeks), or for it to fall into the wrong hands and become a breeding machine? My inability to answer this question (or find concrete science to sway me) has made me decide that pups I cannot observe as a result of distance, (ie. interstate pups) will be desexed at 9-10 weeks before they are sold to their new homes. I HATE that I am choosing to do this, and I am also asking for a contract to be signed in the presence of a JP, but I cannot see any other guarantee of their wellbeing. People will say ANYTHING to get a pup and disregard contracts (as was displayed shamelessly on the General Discussion board recently) if they so please, so the only definite prevention is removing their ability to breed. My only other option would be vasectomy & tube tying - have any breeders opted for this? Can it be reversed easily? (Can you tell them the pup is desexed in this case?) Is it reliable and how does it compare in price? It is a difficult ethical question I am losing sleep over

Don't you go getting any idea's woman!

If the breeder cannot trust you with an entire pup, I wouldn't give them the opportunity to take my money. Their reason for early desexing will be purely generated by self interest anyway, not for concern of the pup's future health and proper development. I dont think this is a fair statement to generalize with. I have always been dead against it up until now, and at the moment I am telling ALL interstate buyers that my pups will only come desexed. WHY? Because so far no one can answer my question "What is crueler to the dog? Early desexing, or the possibility of ending up in irreverent hands and becoming a breeding machine?" Even if your first instinct is to say desexing, think about it. What if the 'girl' has problems during whelping, and she is left in the corner unassisted, and dies? What if she has 6 large litters and then contracts mastitis? Which then goes undiagnosed and she dies from it? It's not a black and white situation. I am not an easy person to buy a pup from, I ask a lot of questions and want a contract signed. Not because I don't trust people, but the opposite! Generally in my life I have been over trusting of people - and so many times I have been burned. And Im not just talking dogs, I'm talking life and dogs. So much so that it has come to me asking FRIENDS to sign things, not because I want this to be so, but because I have made a solemn promise that I will not alter on this forever more, not for the financial or wellbeing of myself, but for the puppies I breed and become eternally responsible for. As a breeder who cares about your dogs you a placed in a hard situation, there are your own expectations of yourself, your potential buyers, societies expectations, and endless journal articles to trawl through to decide which is the more ethical decision to make. Don't paint every breeder with the same brush.

Oh really? Why is that? I would be interested to know from a training perspective. I have his DVD's and I've learned a lot from them. I think he's great...though I've heard that some people feel strongly about his methods. I've never understood this. Does it have something to do with the way he rehabilitates condemned dogs? There was a You Tube clip (apparently now banned) where he "hung" a dog to unconsciousness via it's collar, and blamed it's self defense actions as 'agression' Have you ever seen the episode of 'It's me or the dog' where she displays a small dog's fear agression towards the grooming brush by making the owner get on the ground and brushes over her head with a broom? Well CM equivalent was forcibly restricting the small dog and almost literally beating it with the brush and forcing it to endure the grooming. In your humble opinion would this get you over a fear?? His methods speak for themselves, I just find it fascinating that with so many people offering a combination of Positive and corrective training that incorporate real science, people still opt for CM. It shows the mentality that most want to achieve from dog ownership, ie. Alpha! Power. At a recent seminar I heard the man behind the "Wolf Pack" theory research himself say that the methods they used for the study were inaccurate, not only of portraying dog behavior but also wolf behavior! Interesting and thought provoking.

Thank you to everyone who has offered advice. My apologies for taking so long to get back on, my son is teething and time is of the essence with a screaming child! I have passed the information on and am waiting to hear back. In response to one comment, let it be said these dogs are also kept in a secure run at times throughout the day, not because they are feral but because it is easier to "put them in their room" when the guests come than have them mooching at the back door during mothers group! These dogs live with a cat and a baby (and a ferret!) The owners are responsible, the dogs friendly, and they are devastated. The Shire is once again entertaining a knee jerk reaction. Whats worse is the article in last weeks "Lilydale & Yarra Ranges" local news paper of an AKITA attack which resulted in the attacking dog (the AKITA) being run over and killed - while the large photo heading the article was of an aged GERMAN SHEPHERD DOG! Which highlights the type of knee jerk media and poor editing of local media where these laws are being enforced. Does not help

I don't think this is the case Megan. The new laws come into effect tomorrow, so after tomorrow they can decide to declare the dogs registered as Staffy's to be Restricted Breeds if they believe they fit the standard. If the dog is registered or not, the owner still has the right to appeal through VCAT. If the appeal is lost, the unregistered dog may then be destroyed. This is what she was told. (It is actually worse for those who HAVE registered dogs) The council will be visiting every home with a dog registered as Staffy, Etc to determine whether in their opinion it is actually a PBT. They could not give a time frame as they would have "thousands of homes to visit". She did not want to go down the path of Restricted breed because she was advised that the dogs would have to be muzzled at all times and kept in a concrete floored run!

I know there has been a similar thread lately but I can't find it sorry. My friend tried to register her two American Staffy's today, and was impolitely informed that if she cannot provide papers for them she MUST declare them dangerous dogs or they will be declared Pit Bull Terriers, seized by the council and PTS. The dogs come from a long line of dogs bred by this family (for generations) however they don't have ANKC papers. The council has recently implemented laws to say any Staffy without papers is to be declared a dangerous dog, or it will be treated as a Pit Bull and PTS. They are also sending a member to every home with a registered Staffy to assess whether the dog is a Staffy or a PBT and if they decide the dog is a PBT it will be seized on the spot and PTS. I remember reading people posting links to state and federal law which over-rides council law. If you could please post these links again it will be greatly appreciated. (This is not Geelong, this is the Shire of Yarra Ranges.)

HAHA!!! I saw Rotty x West Highland White Terriers advertised not long ago Stay strong and I am sure the good will prevail.

Oh and you can also visit twice a week and use large exercise yards to let them run! Shiro actually stayed longer than the minimum 30days (as he had to fly early) and it's had nil ill effect on him. He is a happy goofy man In his case he received extra grooming also (baths etc) as he had to spend longer in the kennel.

I have imported two dogs from those countries now, so if you want to email / PM me I can offer you some breeder references for them to talk to? Or even talk to them myself? From my experience AQIS Spotswood did an IMPECCABLE job! I would rather leave my dogs there than in a boarding Kennel I didnt know! The same person looked after both of my two and he remembered everything about Kesari a full year on! At the moment Spotswood is full up, and Shiro still received daily exercise and attention. They feed a high quality dry food (Euk), and upon consent with the owner they will up the intake (free of charge) if they feel the dog needs a little extra on top of the recommended daily intake. They also get a premium chicken/ rice loaf. This time I even liaised with the export company in Netherlands (operating out of Amsterdam airport) and they are stellar also. They do a fantastic job, they speak several languages fluent and are very forthcoming with information, right down to providing photos via FB of your dog leaving the country! All flight companies (from my research) only use Malaysia Air from Netherlands/ Germany, so you don't get a choice of airline. But I would stress that you book and ensure the dog be dropped off in time for the Tuesday flight, as it is a more organised flight ritual. More than happy to provide more detailed info of each step and how our experiences have gone. I have two brilliant dogs from Cat 4 countries and I would do it again.

No need to clean between the rolls of this one! Hehe

The ANKC representative club for the White Swiss Shepherd Dog in Victoria: www.wssdavic.com [email protected] The club will have it's first official outing at the 'Big Day Out for Dogs 2011' with several White Swiss Shepherd Dogs on display, so please come along and say hello! More info on the BDO 2011 here: http://www.dogsvictoria.org.au/Portals/0/assets/activities/bigdayout/Big-Day-Out-2011.pdf