Mystiqview

I know I will get shouted down for this.. But I think people should get a apply for a permit to keep an animal before getting one... Well some people anyway.. Especially when you see how some "care" for their animals.

It is one thing to go which council's only have a two dog limit. I know this will apply to the majority. But the two dog limit can also depend on block sizes.

Well said Mystiqview. There is only so much that you can take if they dont get the picture, then I would block them. I use a hotmail account for my webpage and anything to do with puppy listings. I have had problems previously having my normal email address on DOL and other websites with spam. I know DOL has finally improved the system against bots, but Hotmail has a great junk folder. For my normal email, I use an external mailwash program. I can delete, bounce and blacklist emails from the server before downloading them. I agree.. while I attempt to assist.. some just need to be ignored. Let them annoy someone else..

Smart ass :D Tis late.. been long day.. missed that part of the first post.. To OP: good luck

There is this great little folder called "junk"

By map, I mean one that lists individual properties. Not a google map or refidex. When I send out permit application kits, I print a local map and highlight the individual properties the permit applicant has to door knock.

I wouldn't risk it.. You will get caught out...

Ipswich has some of the strictest dog laws. When you move in, you can only register the first two dogs, apply (and pay for) the permit for the third dog. Yes you have to do the letter 100m from each corner of your block. If you get 3 or more objections, you do not get your permit. You lose your $290 and you have 14 days to remove the dog from your property. If whom you talk to in council is good, they should print off a map of the surrounding houses and highlight which houses you need to doorknock. If you live in a high density area such as Springfield Lakes, you could be doorknocking quite a few houses. Depends on where you are also moving to in Ipswich, there is currently an animal survey going on.. If they are in your suburb and you have three dogs and one without a permit, you can get a "Notice to Comply" and possibly fine if you don't.

I would rather take them off than leave them there.. Get enough of even scrub ticks and it can lead to paralysis through numbers. Spray them with Rid or aeroguard... they will back out a bit. If you get a pair of tweezers (good surgical ones) you can get down low and get them all relatively easily

Also a vaccinated dog can still CARRY a problem. They do not show clinical signs but can carry it and pass it onto a dog that is not vaccinated. So those with older dogs and friends with puppies, please be considerate.

www.pricelesspets.com.au - medications etc www.vetproductsdirect.com.au - medications, some other stuff ww.thevetshed.com.au - same as above www.petsupersavers.com.au (I think). collars leads and other stuff.. Books: I check Ebay first

Saradale Maybe. Maybe not. Sydney and NSW prices of dogs used to be higher than qld. "wheaten" is a fashion colour to have in the last few years. I have seen through the dol puppy ads prices as high as 1500 for red/white. That is from the ones who put their price on the ads. I know of other breeders who have charged up to $2000 for colour. So $1800 in a Sydney pet store is not surprising. Still. Way overpriced for a mongrel bred Bc. Even pedigree as Dancinbcs, Benshiva and other Bc breeders who do not breed for this market have said. Any more than $1000 is too much. But I suppose while there are idiots out there who will pay it. They will get sold for that.

Saradale Maybe. Maybe not. Sydney and NSW prices of dogs used to be higher than qld. "wheaten" is a fashion colour to have in the last few years. I have seen through the dol puppy ads prices as high as 1500 for red/white. That is from the ones who put their price on the ads. I know of other breeders who have charged up to $2000 for colour. So $1800 in a Sydney pet store is not surprising. Still. Way overpriced for a mongrel bred Bc. Even pedigree as Dancinbcs, Benshiva and other Bc breeders who do not breed for this market have said. Any more than $1000 is too much. But I suppose while there are idiots out there who will pay it. They will get sold for that.

There is no difference with sable or any other unrecognized colour. ANKC allow some, not all. There have been goes over recent years to amend the breed standard without success. There in my opinion seem more against than for it. Personlly though. I would welcome the ammemdment. Then those people who make it a business to breed the unrecognized colours can actually register then correctly rather than adapt the registration to a recognized one. The problem with this practice is in five or ten years time unless there is a photo of a particular dog, you will not necessarily know if say a registered chocolate/white was intact a chocolate Merle, sable or chocolate tricolour. This goes for any of the other unrecognized colours. It makes it harder for breeders in the future to look at a pedigree and know exactly what those dogs were. Same for sable. You see old dogs in current pedigrees, some listed at red/white. For some of them, were they sable, chocolate (as the UK used to call choc red) or ee-red. Ee-red is hard anyway as mentioned before, ee-red is a Masking gene, so genetically could be something else.

I have one bitch who loves a medium crate.. about 75cm long My standard home crates are about 90cm long.

This post is not about ANKC or ISDS, working dogs or show dogs.. So both of you... BUTTON IT! Your trolling (both of you) are not assisting this topic. Take it into your own topic where you can debate the same old argument to your hearts content without hijacking someone else's. I created this topic in response to a phone call I received from a so called professional trainer who paid a total rip off price for a fad colour puppy in a pet store. I have seen similar advertisements for coloured puppies here on the DOL listings of similar prices and claims. It is about the price of coloured pups being sold in pet stores, back yard breeders and registered colour breeders. It is about the rip off some seem to think they can exhort the general population for what is often advertised as "rare". It is about the increase of registered ANKC breeders who when you visit their websites are obviously breeding for colour without what seems to be a high regard for the quality of animals they are producing. They are advertising "show quality" puppies to the unsuspecting when it is obvious that those puppies do not meet the breed standard. What the breed standard should or should NOT be is or isn't is not the point of this topic. There will always be arguments about show bred bcs, and working bred bcs.. Please not dredge up old gripes

Same here, but I unfortunately have a tendacy towards the darker reds (like my Tollers) and sables *runs and hides* ;) Yeah. have to say I like the dark reds too like my big boy. The pale ones just don't have that same look. Hopefully I won't be putting any more sables out there... Hopefully Myf is the one and only. At least it was an accidental surprise rather than a planned event.

Thanks Benshiva. Hopefully you know where I am coming from and hopefully one day, I can and will breed a dog really worthy.

I breed for myself. No one else. To date I have been working towards getting what I think is show worthy. It has taken me a few generations to do this and I am finally having some success in the ring with my dogs. Not everyone starts out with the best stock in the world. I started out with an honest bitch, not really classed as show material. But I have proven in a couple of generations, I have now some dogs that can hold their own in the ring. I am still small time, and not a real threat to the real die hards out there. At least I am out there where I can campaigning my dogs and coming home with some wins. I have worked hard to get where I am today. I will continue to work hard to improve what I have. The last thing I want is some two bit back yard breeder getting a hold of my work because my line DOES carry colour to breed it only for colour and trash the lines I have worked hard to get and use. If I allowed my dogs to go to one of those "breeders" not only would I be doing the breed a disservice, but also myself as I then would not have access to any decent dogs to improve my own breeding program. One thing I have noticed since being in the breed, as soon as you do the wrong thing and allow your dog to go to the wrong person or dog, you are cut off from decent dogs and breeders. For me show quality is TEMPERAMENT, structure, health and again temperament. I prefer to sell my puppies to pet homes where there is no expectations that it MUST be a show winner or the next sporting champion.

There are so many reasons why a bitch may or may not have taken, reabsorbs or aborts. That is why there are also fertility specialists. I think before classing it a waste of time, I would possibly give it another go with progesterone testing and possible AI depending on the circumstances. I know of bitches aborting a whole litter when there has been out of the ordinary hot weather. I know of other bitches who have stressed and not taken etc. I also know of some dogs who can only do AI. I know with horses, you pay for a service. If nothing happens, too bad so sad. Some will offer a return. Depending on the circumstances, the bitch owner can be just as much out of pocket and wasted their time as well through no fault of anyone - dog or human. Personally I think there needs to be some give and take and a good understanding of what is to happen between both. In my breed, there are not that few studs where you can easily say "bugger off find someone else" if one party is unreasonable.

I don't charge extra for Main Register. All Main Register pups are co-own. No ifs or buts. Too many disreputable colour breeders or puppy farmers popping up in my breed who don't give a brass razoo about what they are breeding. As long as it carries colour and they can breed from it.. Yipeee. If I "stash" a dog for breeding, they pay the full price up front. I pay all the health testing at the relevant time. Once I use the dog/bitch, I refund their purchase price or give them a puppy (limit reg). Once the dog is desexed, I am happy to sign it over. At least this way, if they decide to desex the dog early, I have still got my pet price. Too many people popping up in my breed who do not spend the time actually researching the lines they have. If they did some basic research, they would not be doubling up on certain dogs in their pedigree. All they see is a "nice" chocolate/white dog.. not what hidden dangers are carried in the line.. The funny thing with that.. is mostly where these same people have gotten their coloured dog from is a colour breeder to start with... Some breeders still sell everything on Main Registration and the coloured dogs flooding the market are from the same few kennels who do sell all their pups on Main Registration. So the quality never really improves. As generally speaking, the same people who are buying these dogs are only interested in selling coloured dogs, and anyone with quality show dogs will not allow their studs to go to these inferior bitches. Too many border collies are coming up with other varying health issues that are not able to be DNA tested for, and the number of puppies I have seen recently who are missing significant pigment on their noses at 8 weeks is disturbing. (these are non merle puppies too). Or the number of dogs with blue eyes appearing on Main Register and then some breeders making a feature of it in their advertising for "show quality" puppies when the blue eye is an actual breed fault! Maybe if some of those breeders actually went to a show and tried to show their dogs, they may get an idea of what show quality really is. Just because it is capable of being bred from, does not make it show quality. If these new breeders are there for the right reasons.. then I am sure most of us will be supportive with their endeavours. But the number of ones who are breeding for other reasons is getting disturbing.

I think you have been more than fair. Although sometimes, for the sake of peace.. Refund the rest of the money - at least to get them off your back. Then ignore them. It is obvious they are not worth the time and effort and really, after this do you really want to keep dealing with them? I had a puppy returned to me 24 hours after they collected him. He was the most quiet, laid back puppy in the litter. He had woke the family twice during the night on his first night away from here. He was returned to me because he did "not fit in with their calm lifestyle". I refunded as it was only 24 hours.. but 4 months.. nope.. would not expect to receive all back.

I have been lucky, I have dealt with great breeders/stud dog owners I have paid when either the pups are born or when deposits have been made. The paperwork was filled in at the time of mating, but not handed to me until they received stud fee. I knew what I was up for BEFORE any mating took place. I know the arguments for paying at time and what you are paying for and all that.. That you are only paying for a service, not live puppies, but even for me and my dog getting used.. It is nothing for him getting is rocks off.. If no puppies are born.. nothing lost.. Although something with me.. I would like to see at least a couple of puppies born in order to take a stud fee. I personally do not feel comfortable with taking a full stud fee and no puppies resultant. If a bitch boards then, there is boarding costs.. but not a stud fee. When my dog was used. Same deal. They did not get the signed form until payment was received. I see both sides to the story. But I think if you have decent owners/breeders on both sides, it does help.

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There are plenty of people breeding blue merle, chocolate merle and other merle variety border collies. Unfortunately as Dancinbcs has previously stated, 95% are from colour puppy farmers whose main objective is screwing the pet market for everything they can. Would I buy from them?? No. I can only think of a one or two breeders who I would consider if I was to EVER get a blue merle from. I know her lines are fully health tested, they are performance dogs and she has been in the breed and even had some influential show dogs in some of our pedigrees many years ago. It is fine to try to regulate the pedigree world with prices. However this will not solve the issue of the BYB and puppy shops from selling the colours then at extra inflated high prices. They will then even more go with "rare". Also to try to get the ANKC to do it, goes against the ACCC and fair price and competition etc. However, if I have achieved anything with this thread for the brief time it has been up here in the first pages, is hopefully anyone who has come across it and read the contents will know if they are being charged these ridiculous prices for fad colours, will start to object to pay these exorbitant prices. Red/whites now seem to be the new chocolate/white flavour. Every second person is breeding red/whites because they are popular. No colour is "rare" If you know your bloodline (and even colour DNA test your breeding stock), you can pretty much predict what colours you would expect from certain matings. Sometimes, you get a surprise, other times no colour turns up. But it is easy enough to look at a pedigree and know what colours SHOULD be carried (and even produced by certain dogs) when you do a mating. I myself do not not put prices up on my website. My prices range depend on the stud dog used. However I have not asked more than $900 for any of mine. One litter where I had two sables, one was given away (Charged $80 for microchip, vaccination only), the other was $600 - the same as the rest of the litter. The last litter was $900, but that was also due to quality of dog used and an emergency C-section required on the bitch. Did I make any profit??? NO! I am for finding the right home for the right puppy based on lifestyle of the family and the temperament of the puppy. I have knocked plenty of people back who were willing to pay much more for a puppy, purely because I did not think the puppy was suitable for them. I would sooner sell a puppy cheaper to someone who would offer it a perfect home than allow someone with all the cash to get a puppy and it to be left in the back yard or returned to me a week or more later when it has dug up their prize rose bush.