Erny

I don't like it either - but because I don't know the circumstances behind it, I feel I have little choice other than to reserve my judgement on it. I heard in the background the guy instructing the handler say "I don't like doing this but because ....." and then it chopped off. I would really like to know what the reasoning was behind this. Was it a serious issue one step behind euthanasia? What other methods had already been tried and failed (for what issue)? I don't know the answers to any of these questions. Doesn't make me like it any more and from only what I could see by that video clip, I felt it was wrong - I didn't see any huge crime that the dog was committing (errors, yes) but then that too is unclear from the video footage. But still leaves me with not being able to know if it was necessary and better than any remaining alternative. Also doesn't show us if there was any value gained by it.

It is, although it is not unusual. He ate his cooked chicken and then about half a cup's worth of the Black Hawk not so long ago today. So that's ok. I don't wish to take it away from Black Hawk, but feel I need to point out that Mandela's poop has often improved when I have introduced a new fibre inclusive food. This occurred when I initially included red kidney beans with his cooked chicken. Then went down hill. Improved when I introduced lentils. Then went down hill. Has also improved when he ate the Royal Canin and a bit of the Canidae ALS - but he then stopped eating that food. IMO this is absolutely no slight or reflection on these foods - it is just my dog. That's why I'm not attributing what's occurring to the Black Hawk just yet. And also why I am not doing too much over the top celebrating at this point of time. This is also why I have been working on his health/digestive issues for so long now. It can go really well for quite a while (or not) and then stop in its tracks. So it is a lot of hoping with bated breath and being happy for any small improvement, even if it turns out to be a temporary reprieve. One small extra bit of info I will tentatively put out here is that yes, his poop is improved just as it has on some other occasions, but it has been a long time since I've seen it quite that much improved.

Your question inspired me to go searching, BB and in doing so I found an article that will provide the answer - see link below : The Benefits of Beet Pulp in Pet Food From the article :

'Off' his food this morning. Wouldn't eat the Black Hawk nor for that matter, his cooked chicken. This behaviour is not unusual. The last couple of days' poops are a lot better though.

Noisy - there's a link in post #21. At the top of the website, there's a person's name and contact number for each State. I found you have to be pretty quick to catch the number before it flicks off to the next ad, but if that happens you just need for the names to come back up again. I offered my boy another cup of the Black Hawk (would be the 3rd cup today - 2 cups at breakfast which he ate quite eagerly and completely). He ate some, but left the rest. Could be that he's not hungry. I hope that's the only reason. I'm waiting with interest for him to do a poop. But it is raining so I think he's holding on. I'm a little confused regards quantity to feed at the moment. When I work it out on weight in the imperial side of things, I should be feeding 3.5 cups. But when I work the metric guide back to cups it suggests I should be feeding 1.8 cups. I've emailed Black Hawk (Sherel) and waiting for a response to clarify.

One of the greatest problems will be that we are scattered all over the country and unless we ALL support one organization we will ALL lose out. We already know of the problems we have because we have NO single controlling canine body. Thus why i belive we should stand untited and help each state I can't see an objection to one organisation fighting for our very existence lord knows NONE of our state bodies has come to the aid of the party. Also nobody come on here and try and tell me that we have the ANKC because that is a joke between persons that hold state membership. The stronger MDBA's membership, the better .

My thoughts too. Blockage (partial or full) was what scooted through my mind.

Snowball - not being judgmental, but am a bit concerned as your Goldie seems to run away from you a fair amount, unless what I have gathered from what you've written in your recent threads incorrectly. You also mention that she runs away from you when you go out to her if she's been digging holes. Now she's running away from you just because your OH went out to call her in. I can't help but think that your dog is receiving mixed signals from you, not to mention that she is potentially often reinforced for her running away behaviour as well. Can't remember if you've mentioned, but do you go to a training school to help with obedience, to understand how dogs learn and how to make your training messages clear, consistent and successful?

And one somewhat firmer poop (has been squirting last couple of days) tonight. But hold back on any celebrations just yet. Mandela has a history of "ups and downs and quick turn a rounds" from good to bad and back again. So we need to see what the ride pans out to be.

Sherel sent me a trial sample of the Black Hawk Sherel. Score 10/10 for "like it" value (and given the difficulty I've had in getting him to much like, let alone love, anything over the last 6 and more, THAT's saying something!!!!! ). Not only did he scoff the 1st cupful I offered him, but he completely scoffed a 2nd cupful !!! I do not plan to do away with natural raw feeding - I want to get back to that if it becomes possible and I do intend to continue to include his cooked chicken as part of his diet. I'm hoping that I can somehow offer him some balance to his diet though and now that there is something it seems he will eat, there's a chance of that. It is early days - there is always the possibility that (a) his digestive system won't do well on it and/or (b) after a while he will go 'off' this, just as he did the Eagle Pack and the Vets All Natural, the BARF and the other raw food and bones (beef, lamb and chicken) that he used to eat with relish and which for the duration, did very well on. But step 1 (which was to find something he would at least eat) has for the moment been accomplished .

RT E-collars are often used effectively in training with even less stimulation than a confinement system would use. There is no accounting for Government and the dog-laws they have and continue to bring in, IMO.

I trust everyone has gathered that I am a "try behaviour modification first but agree with debarking/voice lowering before euth" person. Now that I have fully clarified that, I would like to make a point of saying that I do not believe that dogs don't know that they are not barking at their usually full volume. I have nothing scientific to back this up with but then I don't know that anyone has anything scientific to back up their beliefs that their dogs don't realise they don't have full voice, either. Kind of like when I have laryngitis. I still talk. I'm aware of the huskiness of it and the inability to project my voice as I otherwise might. I do think it can be a bit frustrating at times. But I don't throw myself into pits of depression about it and it doesn't stop me from being happy. But the point being - I DO know it. And yes .... I would find it frustrating at times. I do think that it could be the same for dogs at times, although I am sensitive to anthropomorphism.

My first suggestion would be to take her to your Vet for examination - checking out possibility for incontinence and UTI's would be my first thoughts.

..... What shallow and revealing words you type, Havasneeze. ETA: Huh? What "torture" do you think I'm applying to you to "extract information" from you??? I don't even think you have any information to extract . as to what you wrote that for. So - you THINK you can make a point of "there being a reason the Government banned them" when it suits you, but not when it doesn't? You won't be drawn in to debate because you are unable to debate it, Havasneeze.

..... Going to answer your question with a couple of questions to you, Havasneeze - save ME doing the hard yacka getting drawn into your one line comment :D. Why don't you enlighten us as to the evidentiary reason for these collars being called in as illegal in some States? And seeing as you believe that there must be presumably good reason for things to be made illegal, please reveal to me evidence upon which reason for Victorian Government made the use of PPCollars (aka Pinch or Prong Collars) illegal ??? My point being that Government decisions to ban do not equate to the tools being bad, wrong or cruel. And the Government well knows that fact.

I wouldn't pick them up (that can be rewarding) and unless either dog is right at the beginning/just about to soil, IMO, it's too late. Tell yourself a firm "NO" for taking your eyes off them. Scoot them outside (no big deal either way) and clean up in their absence. At worse, if they are around when you are cleaning up, grumble mumble at the mess you're cleaning. I find it better to have them not around at the time you are cleaning, though. That could well be the case. And as toilet training is not completed, they know no different to what they are able to teach themselves. Good luck .

Hi Lally (and thank you, Staranais) ... Lally - feel free to call me. Click my signature link at the bottom of this post and it will take you to my website from which you can get my contact info. But please don't call my right now. I'm expecting someone to arrive here soon and I've just come back from working with my boarding/training dogs. The ground was wet and the dogs were out playing and excited at the time of my arrival, so I need to go tidy up some, lol.

Apart from the things Aidan has mentioned regarding retrieve, coming at your question from a slightly different angle, think of it this way...... When you were little, small learning exercises (eg 1 + 1 = 2) were pretty interesting when we were working out how this simple mathematical equation works. If that was your source of mental stimulation, but you were never 'trained' by your teacher to go beyond "1 + 1 = 2" then I'd expect you would have become really bored with sticking on that level, once you had mastered it. Similarly with anything you teach your dog. "Sit" is something we tend to teach our dogs pretty quickly. It is a simple exercise but is mentally stimulating when the dog is learning it. But once learnt, it becomes as boring as "1 + 1 = 2" and becomes such a no brainer. So you might think to take that "sit" and ask the dog for more - example, begin extending that to meaning "sit + stay put whilst I walk away a little bit". This might equate (if we're talking analogies) to "1 + 1 = 2 x 1 = 2". Then you might extend that "sit/stay" to meaning "sit whilst I walk away a little bit and stand on my head", which might equate to "1 + 1 + 2 x 1 = 2 divided by 2 = 1". Get the drift? So what I could have probably said far more succinctly was that at the beginning, training for simple basics of running after the ball might be great for mental stimulation when it carries with it some novelty, but after a while becomes an exercise that whilst enjoyable doesn't necessarily mean the dog's mind is taxed in any way shape or form in the performance of the action. So you would want to add in a bit more complexity and then a bit more and more and so on. At the beginning, my boy was so chuffed at his cleverness at being able to discriminate and retrieve one of his toys by name (my command). This is normal for him now. He still enjoys it and still minces around like he is just soooo smart, but it is just a basic thing for him to do. I upped that to me hiding 3 of his toys and getting him to go find the specific toy I ask for. That's becoming a bit easy for him now, so I'll be soon upping the degree of difficulty - in this way, I keep him thinking . So as to what you do and how you go about it will depend on what you ultimately would like for your dog to be able to give you. If you're not really fussed (although a good reliable retrieve saves you a lot of running around and many lost toys, lol) then it doesn't matter too much, so long as it is something that you can continue to build on to keep your dog mentally active. Here am I - prattling on far long than is probably necessary. I need to go train my Board/Train dogs so I hope in part that this explanation has helped if not you then perhaps someone who might end up reading here.

I'd be inclined to leave your treat pouch on. But show him the treat will come from somewhere else (not necessarily on your person). Once he gets that idea, then remove the food treat pouch from your person. You can "test" the situation by the abrupt removal of the food treat pouch, but then you potentially open up a can of worms should it prove that this does make a difference to him. I'm inclined to err on the side of caution and lead dogs (especially given he's going so well) into gradual changes that are less inclined to interrupt training progress. There is an agility list. I'm sure Jannelle (your agility instructor) will be able to tell you when you see her on Sunday. In the meantime, a quicker answer is likely to come from the DOL persons here. And/or contact Dogs Victoria Agility Committee ???

Sounds to me as though you have really put in every effort to cover as many bases as you can and you should be applauded for that. I am not opposed to debarking surgery when behaviour modification strategies have been well trialled but have failed. If it were me, I think there would be two more that I would try (that are not on your list) before I went ahead with surgery .... Husher. If you're not familiar with this, it is an elasticised muzzle that is meant to work on the premise that the dog can still open its mouth to bark, but the elasticity of the muzzle serves to make this more difficult, tires the jaw muscles, and so the dog gives up - after a while. These items are not my first port of call for barking issues and I don't have a lot of faith in their ultimate success, but given that their cost doesn't mean mortgaging your home, it might be worth a try - even at least so you can add it to your list of "tried its". Electronic anti-bark collar. Now THIS IS something that I'd suggest has a good likelihood of success. It needs to be done with supervision and instruction (IMO) and I only ever recommend good quality collars with my preference being for the styles where you set the stimulation level (not where the collar sets it according to the amount of barks). BUT .... I think the use of these collars in NSW is illegal. Stupid laws. And I guess because I'm me, I would probably go for a second opinion with another trainer/behaviourist - just to be certain that the opinion of the 1st was correct and that no stone was left unturned. As I say - that's me. I do this for my dog with Vets. I tend to get second opinions for myself as well, in matters of surgery. IMO, I would consider surgically voice lowering/debarking before euthanasia. I would look carefully for a Vet who was well practised in the surgery and who had a known good reputation for the work. I'm not familiar with debarking laws in your State - I only barely know the debarking laws here in Victoria where I live. But please do check thoroughly into the wording of your law/s in this regard before you proceed. And if you ever move into Victoria ........ think TWICE AND THRICE before you ever "exhibit" your debarked dog.

Hi Snowball One of the main things in working out what best to do to stop an unwanted behaviour is to first try to discover the possible CAUSE/s for the behaviour. There can be a range of reasons, including boredom, attention seeking, genetics, anxiety, self-reinforcing (which ties in with what I've already listed) and therefore a learnt behaviour, etc. If you're able to work out the cause, you're already part way there to being able to stop it. You've mentioned a couple of times that you walk her every day. Forty five minutes. It's great that you do that, but walking is often not enough. Walking does not necessarily equate to sufficient mental stimulation. Which is why it is necessary to ask about the other activities you engage with her, such as training (obedience; tricks; retrieve; etc). The other question I think needs asking is the age of your Goldie? I know many Goldies who dig. Especially when they are youngsters. That is not to say that they will simply "grow out of it" when they are older. It is potentially a "phase", but without training and guidance to show your Goldie digging isn't what you want (and showing her other ways to satiate the reason that is at the moment motivating her to dig) the chances of her moving through and past that phase reduces significantly. Putting your dog's poop in the holes and covering them back over has IME a reasonably high success rate in stopping the dog from digging the holes up again, but you will most likely find that your Goldie will simply go dig elsewhere. Until you are able to convince her that EVERY hole she digs will culminate in "fresh/yucky self-poo discovery", then she is likely to continue. Providing a place where you Goldie can dig is a good strategy to put into place and certainly worth a try. A couple of things to bear in mind : (a) If the sandpit is not deep enough your Goldie may find this frustrating/unsatisfactory and (b) it takes some training to teach a dog that "digging here is what I want (and is fun/satisfying for you) but digging elsewhere is not what I want and doesn't get you as much fun). Certainly, this is not an impossibility though. After all is said and done, it is a matter of trialling a variety of things and definitely in the meanwhile, working on the mental stimulation side of things. And remember that your dog is being a dog. If you had a lot of land or if your dog were out in the wild, this behaviour would not be undesirable and might even be considered "cute" or "funny". If you remember this, it might help to ease the frustration of your yard not looking like the yard you once had, or had in mind.

I would love to go to this - shame (for us Melbournians) that she is not coming to Melbourne. I may not be able to make it up to Queensland in February. Her training style sounds a bit like Uta Bindel's training style - predominantly drive training; not against e-collar training if it proves necessary and good for the dog/situation; some work clarified/enhanced with the use of the clicker. Uta (Germany) was also very good at making her sometimes stilted English made well understood, simply through the use of her body language, demonstration and expressions. I really enjoyed Uta's seminar/workshop and if Mia is as similar as she sounds, I'd say that people who can get to Queensland in February to attend it, will enjoy hers as well.

Stanlo : Erny : Stanlo : I'm not one for "correcting" for inappropriate soiling - especially when toilet training isn't complete. This can lead to behavioural problems further down the track, one of which is that the dog learns that soiling inside the home is only "wrong" when the owner is around, but not wrong at other times. (Other more extreme behaviour issues that can develop as a result of punishment/corrections during house training are things such as coprophagia and I believe also aggression.) There's too little information about what you have done as your toilet training regime, but I'd concentrate more on making it so that your dogs are successful in their toileting patterns (and reward them accordingly) rather than focusing on being around so you can correct the mistakes (that you permit them to make).

If your girl's toilet training is not complete and accidents are occurring inside by her, this won't be helping. It is very unusual for a dog to "mark" its own bed - normally, soiling own bedding is an indication of either a medical issue (eg. urinary tract infection) or perhaps unclear toilet training. Is your boy desexed? I hope so, as your girl is coming up 6 months and it is possible for her to be coming into season. That would drive your dog a bit stir crazy, especially if he's not desexed. Of course, if your dog isn't desexed it goes without saying they should be separated until at least one of them is - but I presume you know all about the birds and the bees, so I won't go on to explain . Desexing can help to reduce marking. That's if what you describe is indeed "marking" behaviour and not through some other reason. I've never heard of tin foil being use to deter marking/soiling. What's the theory behind that one?

It's funny you should bring this up, Megan, as I actually said to one of the other agility participants at your group just last Sunday gone that I thought your boy is going to prove to be a good agility dog. He enjoys what he does and is really really tuned in to your body language. He looks for your direction but is ready to address/negotiate the next obstacle. For a dog who is only early into agility training, I think that's quite a huge indication. I am really chuffed that you are thinking about competition. I don't think you have "a long way to go" before your first trial. I think you'll jump ahead in leaps and bounds. I do think that because your boy is so clued into you that the biggest thing to watch will be your placement/body language, as I suspect any little move you make he's going to 'read' it as meaning something. Which I guess means that you'll need to be careful to make it mean something. IE To only make moves that 'mean' something. Especially in these early days of training. But what do I know about agility? PK9's Agility Instructor would be the best one to tell you . But ............ yay!!! I'm excited that you are thinking down this track even though I personally can't help you with the answers.