Erny

Isn't a correction in the perception? I mean, if you're out in the sun, it gets too hot so you go inside. Do you feel you were punished/corrected by the sun? Or do you feel rewarded because when you went inside it was cool so you felt better? The latter example being of course the negative reinforcement component. To "correct" means to alter or stop a behaviour doesn't it? Given the (low) stimulation in the process of e-collar -R training is given before any behaviour, how is that a correction? It is a fine line I agree, when you first look at it. But the way I see it, it is quite a bit different.

Being isolated from the pack is one of the more severe punishments a pack would impose on one of their members. Just because it isn't physical doesn't mean it is gentle. Don't get me wrong .... I use sin-bins too (I refer to sin-bins as a punishment), when I must. "Time-outs" to me are simply that .... eg. settling down a game that's getting over the top by getting them settled in their crate.... not a punishment.) But I'm aware of the stress that sin-binning causes the dog. Many people (and I'm not necessarily suggesting you, Anita) don't give much consideration to it as being the often quite high level punishment that it is. A correction from something such as a check chain (given this is the tool this thread is about) is done and over with in a nanno-second. Message received. Behaviour changed. Reward given. Sin-binning often goes for longer than that.

I am inclined to agree (must be the week for it :)). Although every dog is different, I generally don't see a simple pat as the dog receiving anything of high value from other people. Just my opinion.

The Victorian Government have reviewed the current regulations which form part of the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals Act. There are some changes proposed but there are none proposed in so far as Section 7D is concerned, which is the section that prohibits the use of the PPCollar (aka 'prong' collar) in the training of dogs. http://www.dpi.vic.gov.au/dpi/nrenfa.nsf/L...A256EDD0082EDF1 However, Public Comment to the proposed regulations (and given that the regulations sunset in December 2008, they are ALL proposed whether changes are noted or not) is NOW invited. The deadline for submissions is 5.00 pm on 17th November, 2008. All signed petition sheets (for those arranging them) must be sent to the address given on the foot of the petition sheets to be received by no later than 5th November, 2008. Remember that the sheets do not have to be filled completely - EVERY signature counts. It will still be useful to utilise the download letters provided in www.doglaws.blogspot.com, regardless of whether you reside in Victoria or not. Now is NOT the time to relax (as much as I can promise you I'd prefer to be doing). NOW is the time to motivate (yourselves and anyone else you can motivate) and become active by putting pen to paper and making your voice heard. The Government decision maker based his decision to pass the current regulation WITH NO EVIDENCE to support the opinions of the 'key organisations' it chose to listen to. The American Humane Association's "Guide to Humane Dog Training", which was funded by the Delta Society, attests that the prong collar is "conditionally recommended as a humane training restraint". The Association of Pet Dog Trainers used this guide as a reference to support their own views on the prong collar. The Government needs to hear this loud and clear so that it might see that permitting restricted use of the prong collar in training will be beneficial and within the realms and interests of dog welfare. The Government wants to hear evidence that reveals that the 'prong' collar can be successfully used in the rehibilitation of dogs and that dogs can actually LEARN sufficiently so as to not to have to rely on the 'prong' collar to demonstrate improved behaviour. If anyone has any questions/queries in relation to the current review of the regulation, please post here. But in the meantime, every letter that you write or email to the Government in support of the PPCollar WILL help to make a difference. Comments should be sent via email to [email protected] or by post to: POCTA Regulation Review Bureau of Animal Welfare 475 Mickleham Rd Attwood VIC 3049 All comments must be in writing and submitted by 5pm, Monday 17th November 2008. All submissions will be treated as public documents.

..... inevitably it does. Usually because someone says something that someone doesn't agree with and of course the balance of opinions need to weigh up so that reading might at least part way permit the reader enough to form an (at least to some degree) educated opinion of their own. I generally do not look to use a correctional collar on a pup so young and I am of the view that if what you have is working, then you don't fix what ain't broke . But if/when it isn't working, then's the time to turn your mind to the choices of training tools. By then you will most likely have gathered some idea and information on the choices and will also know more on what your (older) puppy needs. Way to start, Grechy

I think the point is being missed here a bit, or perhaps something is misunderstood? ..... Unless there is "training" combined with the use of the training aid, the dog doesn't train itself. In fact unless a handler knows how to use one (be it chain or PPC), many dogs will still pull in a chain and (to a lesser extent) a PPC. My avatar girl didn't pull (well .... she did when I first adopted her but with training, did not) and I could walk her out (just as well) on a flat collar in time. Many times I walked her in her chain just on the off chance an unexpected situation might occur where I wished it were there for training sake rather than not. So she was still on many occasion walked out on a check chain .... but no, she was not a puller. Tollers - how would you be able to tell by merely looking or for that matter hearing that people have a chain or PPC fitted and THAT is the only reason they don't pull? Or is that an assumption?

I'd rather use a Pressure Point Collar (PPC) aka 'pinch' or 'prong' collar than a check chain or head collar. Of course - it is all dependent on the dog in question and I don't carry a blanket opinion on what one particular style of equipment is best for all. But unfortunately in Victoria, the 'powers that be' and the organisations who support and provoke those 'powers', have (supposedly but IMO not convincingly in the name of 'dog-welfare') deemed it better to limit the choices and not necessarily to the better ones.

Hi MSB. Have just responded to your PM. No way would I expect Rusky's behaviour to have changed overnight. After all, nothing else has changed so there would be no reason for him to have. I don't necessarily agree with the breeder that Rusky "has obviously had a bad experience with a puppy ... " nor necessarily any of the other of her assertions - there is no way she could know Rusky to make them, but to discuss that is irrelevant at this point. That you have children, have considerable concerns for their safety and feel therefore it best to rehome Rusky is IMO reason enough for you to do so. In this I wish you and Rusky good luck and as I mentioned in my PM to you, hope to hear of a happy ending for all.

I had packed up by the time your PM came in MSB. Have now responded. Hope the coming of the day has seen you a bit more relaxed about the situation than you were last night. I'm not suggesting I don't believe you have a problem (because you do), but sometimes things can seem so much worse at night-time than daylight hours.

Sounds more to me as though you are panicking. Take a breath .... relax. No biggy - you simply have two dogs that for the short interim you need to keep separated. Let JP do what he's used to atm - he stay outside. Rusky in the garage (make sure there's no chemicals he can get into). No .... just sounds to me as though you've gotten yourself into a bigger 'state' than you need to be in :D. Be calm. Be assertive. Breath. Firstly - you don't know if the behaviour is "extensive" - it might be more readily resolved than you think. No one can tell you that though without having had the opportunity to see you and your dogs. You don't know what TO do at the moment - I'd say that's why you're so worried about it. And you just may well be. Put JP outside. Rusky in the garage. And you on the comfy lounge, feet up and wine in hand .

It may feel that way but it's only been one day. Stay calm. I'd allow JP as close to his normal routine as possible "for now" (ie until you can get in some help). Assuming each are 'indoor' dogs, I'd have Rusky in (eg) the laundry, separated (as far as sleeping quarters are concerned). Their exercise will be a bit of a juggle, but keep them from being able to 'get' at each other. This is not a 'behaviour modification' suggestion - more a suggestion for safety sake and prevention of 'learnt behaviour' becoming ingrained, which is the only thing that can be properly advised over the internet. I agree with the suggestions of crate training and leadership and that is also something a behaviourist would be able to assist you with. As a previous poster mentioned, moving house can be VERY unsettling for dogs and it does impact on heirarchy order. It will be important that you express your leadership to both dogs in ways they understand and acknowledge and it will serve best if this is investigated and if necessary, adjusted, urgently. Huski - thank you for the kind words .

Oooooh .... Pampa! You wouldn't believe that I was thinking of you so 'hard' only just a few days ago. Almost rang you then but something cropped up (in the shape of a puppy ) and haven't had a chance since. I will so love to catch up with you. I will try to call you tomorrow on your mobile (still the same number I presume) but things are pretty hectic over the weekend so forgive me if it isn't for a couple of days. I'm sure we'll have so much to talk about I'd like to know I can allow time and relax into the conversation . To PM you click on the user name and you'll see a pop down box which will give you the option to send a message. As for the tissue tearing ..... I know it relates to a prey drive activity. But what I meant from the OP was how much of that could be a behaviour learnt by observation. Going back to my "puppy sees us putting the tissue to our noses/mouths". I have avoided Mandela being allowed to see me pull the toilet roll. He's shown some vague interest in the toilet roll once (punched it with his nose) but has not (touch wood) tried to unravel the paper. I am certain he would if he knew what it was about and how to do it. But he's not had an opportunity to learn that by observation. The tissues, however ...............................

A consultation giving a behaviourist the opportunity to see the dog rather than relying on imagination stemming from the written word (which can leave out important info anyway) is the way to go for matters of aggression. A couple of questions though :- what were the reason/s given by Rusky's previous owners for re-homing? what is Rusky's socialisation experience history?

Dog barking can be very annoying when it occurs excessively and I fully understand (as you do) the frustrations of people who live nearby to dogs who consistently voice off. However, if it is a matter of them just being 'cranky' (and I've met those sorts too) and insist that it is your dog where you have checked to the best of your ability and beg to disagree, one possibility is to have Daire stay elsewhere for a period. Your neighbours would at some stage (if the complaint went further and unresolved) need to make diary notes of when Daire was barking and for how long and it is a very big tell-tale if they report him as barking on a day he wasn't even around.

A good indicator they're not up with current understanding and knowledge of how far the collars have come since the 'days of old'. The anti-bark e-collars do much of the 'work' for you. You might want to consider collar conditioning him first though, to reduce the possibility of him becoming 'collar wise'. The important thing is to use a good quality collar. I use the Dogtra with the settings I can set to suit the dog, rather than those collars which have 'set' settings and which range through the stim levels depending on whether the dog continues to bark. Of course, it is also a matter of being certain there is no specific "cause" for the barking. If there is and you don't work on that aspect at the same time, Daire's barking behaviour could manifest in another or additional unwanted behaviour. Before you begin using one, I'd be setting situations up so that you can be sure that it IS Daire that is the 'problem' barker. IHF ... you also need to be aware that although good anti-bark e-collars now operate via vibration (as opposed to the older styles which were triggered by noise whether it came from the dog wearing it or not - those styles I think would be more suited to some neighourhood cats ). This means that if your dogs are mucking around and they end up knocking the transmittor, Daire could end up receiving a stim from the collar even though he may not have barked. If the dogs are in close proximity to each other Daire might pair the stim with your other dog/s.

Midol - I don't think the last few comments/responses were directed at you ??? (For a change ) So I don't think you have anything to apologise for.

One crate for EACH dog is my preference. Later on, when house-training is effected and all is well enough that you are able to leave crate doors open, they might opt to both snuggle together. That's ok. But IMO each dog should know there is his/her own space to go to if they want. Yes. Sturdy ones. Metal rather than the soft crates, until they are crate trained. Fold up crates (not the old styled 'pins in the corners' type - although I don't think they even sell them anymore). I purchase from Puppy Power Sales .... they have a warehouse in Dandenong South Victoria. I don't know if you live in Victoria or not, but they are also e-bay sellers. Great people to purchase through. No - the dogs will appreciate the 'order' that you are bringing into their lives. They might object to the change in the routines (that THEY have set) initially, but that's normal. Provided you are consistent across the board with them, it will be fine. Toileting habits have gone out the window with the introduction of your second youngster. (I'm not a fan of there being 'emergency mats' - I prefer vigilence so dogs learn more quickly that toileting inside is not the go and this also helps to build 'substrate preference memory', which is where they develop a preference for (eg) the feel of grass beneath their feet for toileting. I think it is less confusing for them as well, in the long run.) When you begin with the crate training, don't expect them to hold on for the full 8 hours. Remember that your new youngster's bladder hasn't learnt to 'hold on'. Begin with a shorter period of time and then gradually move up in 1/2 hour increments. There have been times where ear plugs have been utilised by some in those early days . Where will the dogs be crated? In your bedroom or out? You will possibly find there will be less vocalisation if the dogs are allowed to sleep in their crates in your room. Much depends on the reasons for the vocalisation. If you know your dogs have been and are given ample toilet opportunities, there should be no reason to respond to the vocalisation. ETA: The crate should be large enough for each dog to stand up and turn around in. You can purchase a crate to suit the size of your youngest pup as he will be when he is an adult, but you may need to put in a divider so it is not too large that he has excess space, as this excess space might be used by him as his toilet and that will not be consistent with the toilet training you are doing. You can purchase dividers from some places for some if not most crates. Some people merely put a cardboard box or something similar, to take up the extra room. Depends on whether your youngster is going to be inclined to destroy the box as though it is some play thing.

I agree with Cosmolo's post. Your older dog is unfamiliar with this pup and the actions of pups who are generally all over the place and everywhere, can be somewhat overwhelming especially if the adult dog has not socialised well and broadly with very young pups. And then of course there are those needle point puppy teeth that hurt! Keep your puppy calm when the older dog is around. If you are crate training your pup, that is great and would afford your older dog to accustom herself to the sight and smell of your puppy without having to endure being bombarded by it. Or something like a puppy pen will help as well. You need to allow your older girl the time to 'assess' this new member of the family and to become accustomed to pup's presence. It will be difficult for the short term as it will be a bit of a juggling act on your part (because you obviously can't keep puppy in a crate or pen for the whole duration) but subject to your older girl's historical background of experiences, it should be for the short term as before you know it your new pup will be showing signs of learning the rules in the household (provided you have been consistent in teaching them). I'm not suggesting that means your pup will become an immediate 'angel', but that your pup will begin to learn what behaviour is to its best advantage and will be just that bit more under control than is presently the case. Discouraging play in a certain area (example .... a particular room of the house or whatever) may also assist for the long term. This will avail your older girl a place she can retreat to for quiet time if she wants it. Remember that YOU must be the leader to both dogs, rather than being concerned with who holds the heirarchy out of the two dogs. As Cosmolo said, it is extremely doubtful and unlikely that heirarchy is being considered at this stage. With YOUR leadership, you earn the 'right' to govern but also must bear the responsibility to protect. If your pup's interactions begin to appear as though they are getting 'over the top', a bit of 'time-out' can help, or even just a distraction away from that activity can diffuse the excitement that is getting out of control.

No one .... not even the researchers who have in more recent years investigated vaccinations and their affects and prescribe to a different protocol, advocates NO vaccination. What is more recently advocated are titre tests to determine the presence of antibodies which evidences the body's immunity. The reasoning being that if the system is sufficiently immune, why bombard it with more of the same chemicals and taxation to the immune system year after year?

Yes, that's possible Jed. Although I suppose with singleton puppies there is no 'bench mark' to compare them with (ie other pups within the litter) to be able to fully identify whether it is simply an 'individualism' or not. But then, if they weren't singleton pups we wouldn't be having this conversation, I expect. However, one of the single litter dogs who most clearly springs to my mind is owned by a trainer/friend of mine. She has done so much with him and he's come a mile - he'd be about 4 years old now, I guess. When I first met him though he was very unusual in his reaction to other dogs' aggression or growling. It was something needed to see rather than have described because it was the overall 'picture' that gave you that full sense of how unusual his response was, but is was as though he had absolutely no idea what aggression was nor how to deal with it. There was no displacement behaviour from him, no fear, no boldness .... just a 'pause' in time where he'd stop and appear very puzzled and clueless as to what he should do, or if he should do anything at all. I agree that singleton pups can grow into well-balanced and seemingly 'normal' dogs, but as you yourself have attested, that is often because of the substitutions you've managed to expose your singleton pups to by way of the best compensation available. Sometimes there are 'differences' which may not reveal themselves until the dog is exposed to something that whilst would be 'normal' to a full litter puppy, might be a new/novel experience to an older singleton pup. ETA: Disclaimer - I admit that of the many many dogs I have seen and worked with, a very very small minority (down to only a few or so) have been singleton pups. Further, there could have been singleton pups that I have seen but not known them as being singletons.

Taken from Steven R. Lindsay's "Applied Dog Behaviour and Training" .... Volumes 1 and 2 :- "Swedo (1989) proposes that compulsive behaviour may be the result of a dysfunctional releaser and fixed-action pattern (FAP) ... Given the relatively narrow range and specificity of compulsive behaviour disorders, it makes sense to interpret them in terms of species-typical adaptations to persistent frustration or conflict. ......." "FAP's depend on an inner readiness (appetitive, emotional, and hormonal) for action, a releasing or sign stimulus of sufficient strength to trigger the innate releasing mechanisms (IRMs), and the excitation of an appropriate motor program. Although experience and learning modify to some extent most instinctive behaviour patterns, the general form and expression of an FAP is innately programmed and not subject to learning." There's much more said inbetween all of this and I need to read it more closely and probably a few times to grasp the complete essence of it all and to be able to explain what (I at least think) it means in more simple terms. I don't advocate only "herding" to dogs who require mental stimulation. I often suggest activities such as agility; training; fetch; etc. etc. I could have listed all of these things and more in the other thread too, and perhaps I should have. Naturally, I don't know the dog in question and by no means was I jumping to any "conclusion" about the dog from which this topic has now arisen. Herding was a suggestion by me as, if it is something to which the dog has the ability, IMO given it is an activity which reaches the 'core' of certain dog breeds' (and certain individuals within dog breeds) instincts. I am not saying that just because the dog herds birds or the shadows of birds that it correlates to that dog being good at herding, or even necessarily enjoying it. But those behaviours were adapted behaviours by the dog from somewhere and if they do derive from some instinctive nature, then surely that is something that could be explored? I too have in the past expressed concerns that if people are going to use herding as an activity for their dog, that the training needs to follow through as to halt it at the wrong point may proove problematic. Perhaps I should have expressed it again in my post in the other thread. I am remiss that I was working on the assumption that the person would query as to where they might go for the herding training experience and that the right guidance to known reputable herding trainers would be given. Of course, I also am in grave error of assuming that those trainers would give the right advice and explanation to their prospective clients/students although if they are "reputable" I think this would be a reasonable assumption. I don't do herding and I do not profess to be expert in that region. But I have watched and seen the "instinct" unfold like a flower before my very eyes in very short space of time (same session) and with dogs who previously had no clue. I have watched many agility classes and have never witnessed this 'blooming' as I have with something as close to nature as herding is by comparison. I will not say there is no instinctive work component within the activity of agility, but IMO it does not reach the 'heart' of a dog's instinct as spontaneously as a natural activity such as herding does for those dogs who do possess the (albeit deeply hidden) instinct for it.

I could tell by the way you posed your query to me that you were thinking differently ;). Will enjoy chatting on it and will look forward to reading your thread.

Sure .... and you did good ;). Don't know that I could do any better and I'm a bit rushed at the moment so pardon me if what I write reflects that. Basically, Vicki - the activity (eg. herding) which is based in raw instinct helps 'balance' the mind of a dog otherwise troubled in instances where the dog is frantically looking for something else but not achieving it. This is where things such as chasing shadows; manic digging; and other potentially obsessive behaviours can stem from and they increase in an ever spiralling upwards manner because although those latter activities might quell the dog's frustration for the moment, they don't achieve the satisfaction it seeks so it keeps trying .... for the want of not being able to or knowing what else to do.

I haven't met a dog yet who has not enjoyed tearing a tissue to threads. Even my avatar girl who is now over the rainbow bridge (bless her cotton socks) and who was so NOT a dog who liked anything other than a bone in her mouth, would have a go at the occasional stray tissue. I guess I never much thought about it until now with Mandela, my very curious 18 week old puppy who has already experienced the joy of 'tissue tearing' and who has also learnt where they are housed and how to pull one out of the box. Every time he sees me with a tissue in my hand and then blowing my nose, he watches with great fascination and not without a look of 'desire' (for the tissue, not for blowing his nose! :rolleyes:). I wonder if the fascination for 'tissue tearing' is in part (aside from the texture and fun of something so easy to rip apart) the result of our dogs watching us take the tissue and put it to our noses, which to them could just as easily be interpreted as putting it to our mouths, yet never eaten. Just musing on this beautiful sun shiney day whilst I wait for Mandela's new outdoor kennel to be delivered .