Erny

This sentence worth copying .... so I did :rolleyes:. The amount of propaganda out there is scary. Not only in that much of it is false (when it comes to talking about training tools), but there is also what it leads the general public to "think" even though it might not actually be saying it.

Agree with PF and Kelpie-i. The Head Collar has received IMO much undeserved claim as being attached to "positive" training. This is false, although of those who herald it prefer to not think about it in terms of reality.

You're right .... she is RR. Bless her cotton socks - she's no longer with me and although it has been a couple of years since she crossed the rainbow bridge, I miss her very much. She was my very special girl. But I am blessed now with Mandela - also a RR. A male puppy who is now 4 months old but thinks he's an adult . And he is very much a vocaliser. So I might be coming back in here to remind myself of my own advice at some stage in the future .

As per the previous poster, training is IMO the way to go, especially assuming you would like her to bark when someone comes that shouldn't be there? My avatar girl used to bark perpetually on the arrival of (eg) a tradesperson. Admittedly, she was sensitive to the verbal reprimand from me and that did help a lot, as did her obedience training skills which we were working on simultaneously. The higher level her obedience skills became, the more I could expect and the better and easier the 'exercise' became. This is a summary of what we did : Kal would bark, alerting me to the arrival of the visitor. I would attach her lead to her collar (yes ... this meant the 'visitors' awaiting me had to wait a bit longer whilst I prepared my dog - if I knew they were coming and when I was more prepared in advance, but I'd otherwise ask them to hang on a sec whilst I dealt with my dog). I would say "It's ok. Good girl. Enough." If Kal barked beyond the word "enough" I would repeat it but more sternly (enough to break through her somewhat loud barking). If Kal barked beyond the stern "enough!" I would bring her away from the gate/door and command a "drop". (It is more difficult for a dog to bark when in a drop position, although not impossible.) I would be standing on the lead in a way that Kal could not release herself from the drop position. Any barking that continued would receive a verbal reprimand from me. I usually either called out to the visitor to come on in (or through, if we were outside). Once the visitor was inside, Kal tended not to continue to bark, so from there it usually wasn't an issue. But she had other issues so I kept her on lead for that added control over the situation. If your dog is likely to continue to bark at this point, I'd recommend you keep her on lead as well. As time went by, Kal began to understand the word "enough" more and more. And her obedience skills increased to off-lead control, including her drop/stay skill. So it became easier to establish recognition of the word "enough" and if she did not observe it on the first time around, I would call her away and command the drop, which she had to hold until I had allowed the visitor in. By this stage of training, her barking generally wasn't continuing so I was able to release her in progressively shorter periods of time. Eventually (but not too far down the track) I was able to give the "enough" command and she would observe it, without needing to be commanded or placed to a "drop" position. Naturally, every dog is an individual and I'm not suggesting the above in its exact format will work for you and you may need to physically correct if the verbal correction is not sufficiently effective to curb your dog's behaviour. But it might give you a bit of an idea for formulating your own 'procedure' that works for you. If your OH is of the view that dealing with the dog before dealing with the 'visitors' is impossible and/or impractical, then I'd suggest something like the following alternative : When someone arrives, the first thing is to put your dog into (eg) a crate .... out of the road where any barking can be ignored. Unless it is likely to be reinforcing her barking behaviour, you can give her a treat for going to the crate. Make this habitual - EVERY time, with a view that you are looking for her response behaviour to be that someone arrives, she automatically goes to her crate. There is a trick I have trained that involves a dog automatically going to its mat at the sound of a door mat. But it takes time and consistency and when people are pressured to respond to the visitors who arrive rather than continuing with the training, it can be difficult to maintain to the point of reliability. If your OH is insisting on using a collar such as an e-collar or spray collar he should understand a couple of things first : If he's thinking about an anti-bark collar .... it might work (assuming the dog does not attach a negative to people arriving - this being my first and main concern). My second concern on that would be that IF it does work without any such negativity being attached by the dog, your dog may learn to bark at ANYONE, even if you would have preferred to have been alerted. If he's thinking about a "remote trainer" type collar, it is helpful to the dog if the dog understands first what TO do .... and this harks back to "training". The e-collar could be employed using "negative reinforcement" protocols (which involve low stims). Once again though, it is about 'training' the dog to this, rather than it being an immediate "quick fix".

As per what Cosmolo has said. Depending on the (a) dog school and instructor knowledge and (b) the knowledge/experience of the handler, classes are best to integrate to after you've had one-on-one help and gradually built your dog up to being able to cope with an environment that is full of other dogs. Classes are the next step up beyond being able to cope with one or two dogs, as at least at dog school it is a controlled environment. But one-on-one help to prepare your dog for more is what would be the best bet for your dog.

It's not so much just a matter of "training". It is a matter of "desensitisation" and "counter conditioning" (ie teaching him an alternative more acceptable response behaviour). Training for obedience assists with the desensitisation work. But there is often more to it than this. Your dog is more than likely afraid of these other dogs. Before he'll be likely to accept you governing his desensitisation regime, he needs to (a) perceive (b) accept and © trust in your capabilities as "leader". All of this can be explained and a method for you to adopt when you find yourself in these circumstances that will not only assist him but will be complimentary to your leadership skills would be demonstrated to you by a trainer/behaviourist. I agree some desensitisation is required (refer above) but as you say, it can have the opposite affect if the desensitisation is not done properly. Without knowing your dog, no-one can set out a 'plan' for you to follow. It would all be your judgement call. And this is where you obtaining some professional "one-on-one" help would be an advantage. Sorry Violetmay - this is "no-no" number one and is of the most common (and very human) mistakes many people make in your predicament. By patting him; talking soothingly; or just generally giving him attention could be exacerbating the problem as he could be perceiving your message as an encouragement for his behaviour. It's possible. Whilst it is always helpful when we can be informed of the historical events of a dog's life when it comes to behaviour problem solving, it is not mandatory and we can often make educated assumptions as to the problem both initially and along the way of the behaviour modification program set for you to follow.

Not stubborn Sarah - more than likely merely too stimulated by the distractions outside to remember about going to the toilet. Have him on lead if necessary, and just wait. Calmly and quietly. Don't walk him around nor walk around with him (other than to a favourite toilet spot - having him where there are old toilet smells will help get his mind on the job and encourage him to 'go'). Of course, BIG party once he has finished his toilet outside. This will help build a contrast in his mind between what happens when he does it outside compared to the 'nothing' that happens when he's inside. Clearn up in his absence. Not everyone finds this necessary to do with their pups, but I have found it does make a difference and it completely removes any possibility of fun or attention that pup might perceive whilst you're cleaning up. Cute puppy, BTW. Of the "SWF" group, I rather like Westies. Hope you're socialising him broadley and plan to train him. Westies can be fiesty little fellows. A busy brain in a little body . They definately need mental stimulation of good caliber.

In my view, "quiet time" is more for crates. Play pens are for the pup to be able to play but without the necessity of constant supervision. It keeps them safe and contained but doesn't mean they can't be active. ETA: Re-read and note the OP is using the play pen as a substitute crate. Depends on what the OP wants - is "play pen" supposed to signify "sleep/rest/quiet" time? If so, IMO a play pen is generally too large and open to more easily encourage this.

I have attached Mandela's puppy pen to his 'day crate'. This provides him a cosy and safe place to rest/sleep. I tend to give him a treat (eg. a piece of carrot or apple) when he goes into his day crate/pen - not every single time, mind, but enough for him to happily enter the day crate/pen. There was some demanding barking in those first early days - even though I was right there. I ignored that and waited for him to settle. When he did and after a little while, I would give him attention/let him out or whatever. I use the crate/pen set up for occasions such as : When I want to eat (in peace) When I can't supervise him When I just simply want a break When I need to leave him on his own When I want to watch TV (in peace) At other times, Mandela has access to the remainder of the main rooms of the house - but I'm around to check on him and supervise. The freedom he has been given for this access has been gradual - the more he is becoming trustworthy, the more he gains freedom of access. I also use the crate/pen set up for when he is outside and I have to leave. This provides him with a degree of security and stops him safe from things he might get up to in the yard. This will continue until he is a bit older and larger (he's 15 weeks atm). At other times when I am around, he has free access to the whole of the yard. I will leave him outside and 'deny access' by closing the back door. For very short periods only - to get him used to not being able to come inside when he feels like it. I agree that breeders generally do much with the pups before they come home to us. But don't forget that they are together with their other litter mates at the time. Being completely alone makes a difference and pups should ideally be 'gentled' into being used to this. IMO.

Ooooh .... I'm glad Sue Gonelli with "Dougal" won the open . Dougal was Kal's (my avatar girl - since passed) bestest ever friend, second to me. For their 'relationship', Dougal will always hold a special place in my heart. Go Dougal !! And congrats to all the others who ran well and even those who simply competed, even if you didn't gain a pass or place. I think it's a bit of a challenge competing at the Royal, with all the distractions, noises, crowds etc. So well done . Erny

Gerda - The "Gentle Leader" is only a brand of Head Collar. All head-collars pretty much work on the same principals as the other. When applied they cause discomfort - if they didn't, the dog would not respond to them for the purpose employed. What discomfort the dog feels depends on how the head-collar is applied in its use and to what intensity. Some dogs 'fight' the head collar, even if introduced to it according to recommendations. When they fight the head collar, and/or if the head collar is used incorrectly, physical damage can (and has) occurred. Obvious physical damage would be abrasion to the dog's skin - usually over the dog's muzzle where the hair is finer and the skin is thin. Skeletal damage is also possible and this would be the most likely to occur if the dog has the opportunity to reach the end of the lead with momentum causing its head to 'snap' around suddenly. It is also possible if the handler uses the head collar with 'jerky' movements. Head collars shouldn't cause harm to the dog and there are many people who use them on their dogs who to their knowledge, have had no worries. Unfortunately, they are a tool where evidence of harm exists though. If you (or anyone else reading) were thinking of using a head-collar on your dog, I'd strongly recommend you engage the services of a trainer familiar with these tools and able to give you proper tuition in their use. It is in your hands as to whether they are used and fitted properly or not. ETA: Some dogs 'shut down' when a head-collar is fitted, or become subdued (either immediately or after fighting the head collar, losing and finally learning to tolerate it). I guess there could be psychological 'harm' to the dog from that aspect, although it hasn't been (and would be difficult to) measured on a scientific level.

Jen - using dogs other than your own is an advantage and something IMO to make the most of. You can always take what you've learnt and apply it to your own dog any time. Grabbing the opportunity to gain experience with different dogs is invaluable.

These are just a list of ideas. As to what will or won't work depends on your new dog and also on you being able to judge for the best as to which suits the most. You might use one idea, or you might randomise .... again - your judgment. Of course, your house lay-out has a bearing on what you can and can't do, so what I've written are merely tips/ideas as opposed to advice - particularly as I don't have the opportunity to see your girl in action. You've only had her for a very short period of time. I would leave it for a few days or so more - just letting her bond with you, before you begin asking any of what I've written below. Once you two have bonded and you've earnt some of her trust, you might be able to use yourself as the "lure". Try having the back door open, but prevent her from access to the rest of the house (eg. access to laundry only). Go outside. Ignore her. Spend time with your other dogs, having fun, being quiet, etc. etc. She might get enough 'steam' up to be willing to venture out to be with you. If she doesn't, don't worry about it. Just keep trying this method over and see what comes. Try feeding her with her bowl as close to the open door (the one to the backyard) as she can comfortably cope with (ie where she IS willing to eat). Gradually, over feedings, close the distance until she is finally eating outside. Take her on lead and practice walking exercises. Have the back door open. Back and forth, back and forth - not overtly pushing her to make it outside, praising/rewarding her simply for the loose lead walk. Your goal (which your Grey doesn't know about because you are so subtle about it) is to get her comfortable about approaching the open back door. Be happy to finish the session on simply just getting close/r to it without her balking/showing concern. I think you see where this would eventually lead? If/when she can handle venturing past the 'threshold' of the doorway to the yard (have her on lead) then don't keep her there for long - return inside and continue with the exercise. Let her know that going outside is not about having to remain out there for any great lengths of time. Taking your grey out and about will also be helpful. Something like agility could work well for her. Just the "Foundation" level. Not from a 'sporting' pov, but as a "confidence building" exercise. Whatever you do, be calm; be assertive; be understanding but avoid molly coddling to her fear. When you do get to having her outside, keep it short at first. Once she is going outside even just a little bit, begin feeding her outside, assuming she is not so nervous that she won't eat. Toileting would be difficult and although I don't normally recommend this as part of the usual "toileting regime" for pups/dogs absent of issues such as your new Grey's, teach her to go on something in particular (eg. newspaper; or puppy toileting pads). It will mean a second step in toileting later on, but at least it will avoid her learning that toileting on tiles or carpet is ok. ETA: Chose the best times, weather wise. Eg. Greys are fine coated and feel the cold, so picking a cold day to venture out may well work against you. At least have her wearing a jacket so she doesn't feel the cold as an additional aversive to being outside.

In layman's terms (because I'm not an expert in it and don't know how to explain any differently) it's my understanding that dog's urine contains many nutrients for the lawn - but too much of it, hence the lawn 'burns'. I guess it is just like you being able to burn the roots of pot plants by over fertilising them. Over time (without being urinated on), the nutrients dilute and that's why lush grass regrows. Kal (my avatar girl) had a special 'toilet' spot and the grass died there - the soil actually appeared quite 'off' as well. When I lost Kal and after a while, the grass in her toilet area grew back lush and rich.

Oh Lush .... "Pooch Cooch" lawn is supposed to be a bit more resistant to urine burn. Not completely, but supposedly stands up to the 'wear' better than other types of grass. Perhaps sow in some seeds of that in amongst your current lawn? I'm not sure if this would help or be good. You might do better to speak with Member "Horus" as he is the garden guru of DOL here :rolleyes:. Usually found in off topic but you don't have enough posts up to be entitled to enter "Off Topic" forum. I'm sure he wouldn't mind if you sent him a PM instead?

The only thing you can do is water off the urine, but you need to be able to do this pretty much immediately the dog urinates there. And that's near next to impossible. Many people advocate adding Apple Cidar Vinegar to the dog's water. Or the use of *dog rocks* in your dog's water. Personally, I like dogs' water to be clean, fresh and without additives. I know that ACV has some excellent qualities that can enhance the health of animals (including us) but I am unsure as to what it would do over the long term when it is the continuous source of hydration. I mean, by adding these things (dog rocks as well) we are altering the dog's PH level in its gut. What long term affect (if any?) could that have? I don't know and may be concerned for no good reason. But in my view we are altering the dog's system to suit and I'm a bit of a "if it ain't broke you don't fix it" person, priority being the dog in this instance of course, not the lawn. These are just my thoughts and feelings on the topic, so please don't take my word for it as I have absolutely no source of evidence to support my concerns.

Im one of the other showies and gotta agree with Staff'n'Toller you can teach a sit and have a show dog. hey I own one. And I dissagree with what you said. I agree with Monelite. Not teaching the "sit" is only avoiding the problem and then *hoping* it won't happen in the show ring. Teaching the sit well and as Monelite suggests, teaching the stand well, will give you the reliability that it is less likely to occur in the ring - even less likely than if you didn't train the sit in the first place. Dogs don't need to be trained to sit - they already know how to do it. But by training the sit, you are placing it under command control.

So yelling SHAAAAAADUP isn't recommended then Erny? [takes notes for next time she babysits Flynnie the Wonder Dog] :wink: .... so you heard me from way up there!!!??? It makes us feel better for a nanno-second, PF, I must admit. Mandela's even figured out that I use the rear view vision mirror to spy on him (is he needing toilet, is he just playing or is he just loving the sound of his own voice?) and this encourages him even more. So I'm back to completely ignore through the whole trip and fingers crossed it's not a wee stop he is wanting.

It is difficult to tell you exactly what your dog is 'feeling' especially without seeing him. However, not to dismiss anxiety as being a possibility (and yes, perhaps this relates to motion sickness, although this often results in the dog's reluctance to get in the car in the first place), perhaps do a 'trial by elimination'. Perhaps it is that your dog has high anticipation of something really delightful occurring at the end of the trip (eg. meeting the kids; run in the dog park; etc). Perhaps add in a good mix of very short car trips without anything special occurring. You'll need to do this quite a number of times for your dog to begin to understand that a car trip doesn't mean anything nasty but doesn't necessarily mean anything really exciting either. And the more trips you make where there is something FUN at the end, the more, shall I say, "boring" trips you'll need to make to counter-balance them. In other words, for the sake of this 'trial' and if it is to work, the number of "boring" trips should well and truly outweigh the "fun" trips. Also, when your dog is vocalising, be sure to not encourage by talking to him or giving him any attention for it. Now - just to re-address the possibility of anxiety as a result of having been car sick when a pup. That he has no issue being in a crate on the back of the ute could be a clue, but then it also would depend on whether the ute has been used with the frequency you use the car for these 'fun' trips. Also that he is at the back of the ute where inadvertent attention is not so possible. And all the other noises that may well simply take his mind off his behaviour.

Hi Wildstorm and welcome to DOL - are you familiar with toilet training a puppy? If you are, the procedure for toilet training an adult dog who hasn't a clue is much the same. Will try to check back in tomorrow for your response but if it is the case that you're not familiar with puppy toilet training and unless others have come in before me, will give you some of the usual tips. Or venture into the "puppy forum" here on DOL and do a search using the DOL search engine - there are stacks of threads on toilet training pups. (You haven't been here long so don't be afraid to ask for information about how to use the search facility. ).

Although my little man is younger I notice a difference in behaviour when he has an overstimulated day. By that I don't mean when I've done training (ie "think" stuff), but when he's been madly active and so much so that he hasn't taken the naps he should have. On those ocassions he's been difficult to put to bed and settle and is wide awake and raring to go at late hours of the night. Perhaps this is part of the problem for you? If it is, then apart from ensuring that you are providing adequate mental stimulation during the day, I would suggest you insist on some 'down time' in between.

I agree. I also like to keep the pup's name 'valuable' being as mindful as I can be that it too is a 'command' (for attention). So I only use pup's name when it means something and when I know I'm likely to get the reaction (ie look at me) that I want. If you're needing to draw your pup's attention away from something, then use another sound or movement (eg) make a noise or russle the grass with your hands. If your pup takes no notice of this, then you have not undone any 'training' or rendered commands meaningless and you can simply go over to your pup to distract, pick up or whatever you need to do. When pup does give attention to it and makes the moves to investigate it, you can then pop in your pup's name followed by 'come' (or whistle, as per Vicki's post). Don't forget to act in a motivating fashion so that pup won't be able to help herself other than to 'check you out' . I love this age - pups are so curious about the simplest of things (so many things that we take for granted and don't even consciously acknowledge). But that also includes a leaf being picked up by a breeze and this in itself can be a big enough distraction. So be aware of these things in your environment at the time and when you see a (eg) leaf blowing that might likely cause a distraction during a recall, be even more amusing to your pup than that (eg) leaf might be.

I have had Mandela (several times each ... gradual and non-traumatic introduction) to the train station; on trains; meeting unfamiliar people; down the main street cafe (meeting more people including children, older people, older people on their scooters, hearing the light and heavy traffic going by); in and through a major suburban town; puppy school (of course); at the Moorabbin airport listening to the planes and helicopters take off and land; stay over and be left with someone else for a day (someone who I completely trusted for this); take a ride in an elevator; a bus ride ..... there is more but this is the list I can think of off the top of my head. We have yet more to do before he is 16 weeks old and of course will continue beyond that as well. The majority of this did not require him to walk - in the initial stages I actually held him as he was too small to walk (and the weather was too cold). I have him walk more now though and getting him used to being on the ground rather than on my lap, although I do pick him up at times when we have some distance to go and/or when I see/think he has done enough as he's too young to be walking too far. All of the above has taken numerous visits, starting off with distance and short sessions and only increasing in the next visit where I could see he wasn't worried about it in the previous visit. It's good that your pup is learning the basics and I think it's great to "free shape" any desireable behaviours that she might offer accidentally. My suggestion would be to stick to the basics (eg. a bit of sit, a bit of lead walking, a bit of recall), including manners (such as what you're doing for meal times), and build on those before you rush into bringing in more and more new obedience requirements.

Have you been out and about socialising your pup to all our worldly things that WE take for granted, very much? It is good to introduce the basics of obedience skills to pups at an early age where you can perhaps manage them a bit easier, but socialisation IMO should comprise of at least 60% of the pup's 'training' at this early and valuable age.

It need not be "dominance" or any form of assertion for "dominance" Poochmad and is unlikely to be, given his very young age. I expect he enjoys the comfort of touch and knowing you are around. (Saying this without knowing or seeing your pup.) IMO your pup is (not intentionally) showing trust in you that he will stick around and eat (high value?) items such as pigs ears in your close proximity. Chances are, if you are demonstrating good leadership in all other areas it is unlikely to rise to a perception of "dominance" as your pup matures. But these sorts of things, coupled with other things (eg. where your dog learns that things occur on his terms rather than yours) can lead to your dog's perception of its hierarchy being higher than yours and that's when problems can start. However, if you are not wanting your pup to do this (try to think of all circumstances both now and in the future where it might be inconvenient or a problem) then be calmly assertive and not allow it to become so habitual that your pup won't do anything but. Your pup would do well to learn to not eat/chew food whilst touching/leaning/sitting on you when you indicate to him not to. For pups and for that matter, adult dogs that are learning the 'rules', there are many things I like to randomise so that certain habits don't become a "must have" in the dog's mind.