Erny

This could be : Attention seeking and/or Distance reducing (ie lack of independance training) Your friend needs to work out which of the two is most likely and then some tips to help work through to improve the behaviour can be more succinctly given.

Not to mention that : the closer ages are together, the more likely you might have heirarchy issues when the dogs reach adolescence. what one dog learns, chances are so will the other. This is fine and dandy when it is "good" things they learn off each other, but more often than not, they pick up on "not so good" things faster and more prevalently. Working through with one - making the mistakes as we do (and fixing them, as you are doing ) is a learning curve. Further down the track, if you then chose to take on a 2nd dog, you'll be able to apply the knowledge you've gained through your experience/s. Of course, every dog is an individual, so they normally throw in a 'curve ball' just to keep us on our toes ............... and just when we thought we knew it all!

I can't say I ever really looked into and analysed the reasoning behind it - it was simply something that I read way back when .... and simply kept it in the back of my mind. In short, I think it goes to "owner having control of valuable resources" with the pup possibily making the connection that the 'mess' is a valuable resource ..... or some such. I don't believe in the action of cleaning up in front of the pup having HIGH and COMMON potential for this pairing and I'm not anal about it - but I do think cleaning up in the absence of the dog is a good suggestion for more than just the possible 'pairing' reasoning - it does get the pup out of the road; it does eradicate any possibility that an owner might inadvertantly give the pup attention during the process; and it does prevent the owner getting 'mad' at their pup for the mere fact that they have a 'mess' to clean up in the first place. And besides, if there is any "potential" for the pairing, why not avoid that possibly occuring in the first place. That's my take on it and it doesn't really matter to me if it is argued. I simply haven't spent the time doing that myself. IMO - there is absolutely no harm in it and for that matter, given the above, has the potential for good and it is something that I recommend people do particularly (but not necessarily only) if they are having a toilet-training/house-soiling problem (which is when I am most sought in any case).

Whilst you can try the universal hand signals, some people teach their dog the required responses to their own unique hand signal. Are you able to get in contact with Toby's previous owners and ask them to re-cap which signals they use for what? If you can't and if Toby doesn't respond to your hand signals, in the absence of KNOWING whether you are giving the one to which he has been taught, you would need to presume you are using it differently (regardless of whether or not this might be the case) and would need to re-teach him as though it is a new hand signal. Taking Toby to some training lessons might help YOU out ..... by the sounds of it, Toby doesn't need the tuition though. Congrats on the new addition to your family. Sounds like a gem.

It was probably designed so that people would vent at inanimate objects (thinking they were 'training') rather than at their dogs :rolleyes:.

Pups are such fun ..... :rolleyes:

Sorry JeffnCel ..... I've only just got back here. Thanks, Seita, for answering in the meantime. Yep - that's about the strength of it ..... your 'before and after' experiences. Try not to make it a "one-style of equipment -vs- other style equipment" type argument, but do highlight your dog's reaction to the proper use of the prong-collar; what you couldn't achieve before the prong-collar; your dog's improved behaviour; your dog's improved emotional status (eg. relaxed; calm) what he/she is like now and if you have managed to do so, how you've been able to wean off the prong-collar and (eg) how your dog now walks nicely on a flat collar where he/she never used to .... etc. etc. etc. These are all only examples because I have no idea how your dog was before and after - but by the sounds of it, it works a treat for both of you. Does that help? ;) Look forward to receiving it, JeffnCel. Thanks to all who have submitted so far. It's been great and am looking forward to receiving more. Keep up the good work . It will all help.

I've done it ..... recommended in particular for house-soiling accidents. Although I usually suggest to clean up in the absence of the dog (so the dog cannot in any way, shape or form perceive any 'importance' between you and the 'mess'), if this can't or isn't done, then grumble at the 'mess' whilst you clean it up. Supposedly reduces the chance of perception of "importance". I've also done it during the "training my dog not to get up on my water bed" process. Hhhmmm .... because I coupled this with other methods as well, I can't attest that the getting mad at my bed worked in itself. But my girl 'Kal' (RIP) did learn not to. Until she got sick - and then I really didn't give a hoot what she did ...... Dunno .......

If "no" is not perceived as a punishment, what's the point of it. In other words, perhaps your dog is perceiving it as a punishment because it is a sign of your disapproval. IMO, pointing to the 'accident' and saying "no" to her is only telling her you do not like the mess that is there. She figures - "owner + soiling + dog = dog gets into trouble". So dog cleans up the mess (in the only way it knows how) by eating it. With the mess out of the equation, she figures she won't get into trouble. If there is an accident inside the house, simply clean it up in her absence. And admonish yourself for not being there to have ushered her outside before the accident occured. You get up through the night to take her outside. She toilets, you reward .... then you both return and go back to your respective beds. If she freaks out in the dark, being a miniature dog is not the cause. As I've mentioned earlier, I'm no fan of toilet mats etc. But, if you see this as a long term thing and WANT her to always know to go to her toilet mat, then that's what I'd be training for. Sounds confusing to me that sometimes you take her out, sometimes in. When you take her to her mat, have her on lead so you can keep her on the mat until she toilets. Perhaps even have the toilet mat inside a tray (similar to kitty litter tray) to give her some definitative area as her toilet? Your toilet training of her is simply not complete - and I still can't help thinking that there are inconsistencies and unclear guidelines in your training that has created any delay in the success of your training. Think as she would think - very simply. Make training clear - black and white. And above all, consistant. Why not? Is it nailed to the ground? Put it up on the washing machine or somewhere the cat can get to it. You seem to have a lot of expectations about what your pup can learn all in one go. I'm even a little confused by it all! Change some things to make it easier for her. As far as it relates to the toileting situation - I think she's just confused about what you want. Sometimes inside. Sometimes outside. Negotiate kitty litter tray (which is VERY attractive, by the way - BIG distraction to the training you want her to focus on). Left to own devises during the night ..... developes own habits (doesn't think they're wrong, because she really knows no difference). You don't have to "put her out" as if to stay out. (see above) I have no doubt you love having your dog and I'm not judging you (I know what it's like to be very busy and in your own business - a previous business of mine at one stage saw me working 114 hours per week - I kid you not - for a stretch) and I do hear the frustration, but if not for a "quick fix" what are you looking for? Where is she left during the day when you are out? And how long are you generally gone for at a time?

Be careful to not impose your own thoughts as being those of your dog's (anthropomorphism). More likely he barked because he was startled by the bucket tipping and pouring out the water. You're right. And it could have been by accident anyway. What do you think he realised about what "he did"? Probably thought your actions were simply that - interesting! He would have no association between "wet floor/you mopping up" and him urinating on the floor, if that's what you are thinking? Sticks - for your dog getting excited (the most common times being when someone comes home), practice ignoring him on entry. Only give him attention once he's calm and no longer vying for your attention. And keep the greeting calm/low key. Many dogs do "grow out of" the habit of urinating through excitement, provided you're doing nothing to give him cause not to. ETA: I am only presuming your dog's urinating is the result of excitement. Another possibility is urinating through extreme submission. Either way, the 'treatment' is the same (ie ignore) except that I'd also avoid bending over your dog anytime he rolls to his back in submission. If it is submission, someone leaning over your dog (even though the intent is to give an affectionate belly rub) is quite a dominant posture and this can have the effect of increasing the submission your dog is attempting to display. I'm sure your partner won't be bending down to rub his belly for a while, anyway ETA: NEVER punish your dog for soiling inside. This can lead to other very undesirable behaviours later on (eg. copraphagia; aggression). Notice his "pre-wee" signs and quickly usher him outside. Reward him for having gone outside. Clean up any 'accidents' in his absence. Make sure you don't use amonia based cleaners to clean up with as these will actually attract your dog back to that spot and encourage him to soil there again. Excitement/submission aside, if he is still having accidents inside, then his toilet training is incomplete and you need to keep a more vigilant eye on him to maintain consistency in his toilet training.

Thanks cNr . And that's an excellent and important point you raise too. Buster24 .... everytime you are not outside with your pup when she toilets is one more time you have missed an opportunity to train her.

What training steps have you been taking to teach her to toilet outside? How long was she going outside without an accident occurring inside? How old is your pup? IS she getting attention for her 'mistakes'? Best to ignore her for the mistakes because they are actually usually OUR mistakes. Has she ever been told off for toileting inside where she shouldn't? She eats her faeces ONLY when she toilets outside? What are you trying to teach your pup - to toilet outside? Dogs are attracted to kitty litter. It is not good for them. Put the kitty litter tray out of her reach. Moving house is a big deal for any dog. Your pup would have been disorientated with the new environment and assuming she is still only very young and hardly out of toilet training (if out of toilet training at all) and probably needed some guidance along the way in her new home. Dogs will imitate - especially other dogs. But please don't make the mistake of comparing what one dog used to do (or not do) with another. Each dog is an individual and needs to be recognised as that. I'm not a huge fan of toilet mats, newspaper etc. for toilet training. IMO it simply adds an extra step into the toilet training regime that you need to follow to teach her that you actually want her to go outside. Might as well have approached it straight away from that pov .... saves confusion for the dog later on as well, as the pup has been taught the idea that it IS ok to toilet inside the house (albeit that you intended for it to only be on a special mat). From what brief information is available in your post, it sounds to me not that your pup is lazy or anything else ... it sounds as though she is simply confused and that toilet training might not have been as clear and consistant as it could have. But answers to the questions in this post will help us help you to narrow down where and why your training is not going to plan.

Thank you Rachelle. I'll be looking out for it. In the last few days a few more responses have been coming through - this ALL helps ..... GREATLY. Thanks I can't do this without your help and really appreciate the contributions that have been made ...... and those that are forthcoming. And thanks to Rom too, who has been tremendous in sending out reminders to those we know recognise the benefits of the use of prong-collars. We know people intend to put together their own submissions, but I also know how hard it can be to find the moment to do it. Lives are busy. And time rolls past so quickly. Before you know it, it has gone. For those still to submit their contribution (see other thread) it really will help towards the effort in making a difference and although time is precious, I fear it's going to become even moreso with Christmas (and all the hub hub that goes with it) almost upon us. So now's the time folks! Look forward to hearing from you.

K9Force is well known for his expertise and good work in NSW/Sydney area.

So do I, Xaube. So do I ..... This is my point and amazement - that the govt pushed the legislation through on such seemably flimsy thoughts/arguments as "wrong dog". I use reward based training when possible and appropriate .... but sometimes with some dogs you need to be able to control unwanted behaviour just enough to grant a window of opportunity for the "reward training" to be offered and strengthened. A formal submission from you would be great if you would? Please see THIS THREAD Posts #1 and #127 in particular. Understood that.

Modern doesn't necessarily equate to "what works best and is best for the dog" though Daggles. IMO, that should be your focus. Dog training equipment and methods should not be considered like the latest trend in colours and home decor. If it weren't for the current Victorian ban on the use of prong collars, I'd be suggesting using one of those would probably be the better of anything ..... subject to seeing your dog and yourself work.

Hi Kavik ... I can only guess that's what they meant. Or e-collar. But my guess would be with the former, in the context that you have written.

Thanks for your contribution Xaube. According to the documents obtained through FOI and upon which the Govt deliberated and passed the Bill to "ban" to legislation, that your dog pulled on the lead is because you made an "inappropriate selection of dog".

Engage a behaviourist - I will never advise on aggression over the internet. It's an important issue and fraught with injurious potential. If you have a serious illness it's not wise to diagnose and treat only by what you might read in a book. Similar applies here. A bit of advice for the interim though is to keep the dogs apart when they cannot be strictly supervised and controlled. Keep them apart if even this is problematic. Definately feed apart. And the OP should hone his/her leadership attributes to make it abundantly clear who really is the leader out of the lot of them. I'm not saying anything - I can't. Don't know the dogs. Don't know their relationship to the owner. And I will not rely on only what is written to me, because the author may omit some potentially important (but to them otherwise meaningless) information. And/or the written information might be misinterpreted by either party. There are just some things that can't be wisely or professionally helped over the net. Sometimes, people actually do need to engage professionals to help them out. And I'd suggest this is at the very least, one of those times.

Nekhbet .... your above post - my thoughts exactly. And like Rom, I've tried to find documented reports regarding tampering of prong-collars but with no luck. Chinese whispers? To suit someone's claim and support the current Victorian ban? And as for pet stores selling training equipment - yep, I agree .... people need more than just the equipment. They need to know how to use them. Without advocating sale of prong-collars in pet stores though .... if it were a choice of prong-collars or check chains and/or headcollars, IMO and generally speaking, prong collars would be the safest out of the lot to be sold in pet-stores, rather than the other two. But as I said - prefer all of them come via a training organisation/person so that people can be suitably advised.

It also goes to the possibility of the dog actually receiving a reward for demonstrating fear behaviour (aggression or no). Much depends on the methodology used at the time. The stimulus needs to be controlled. The reaction threshold distance needs to be controlled. The timing of reward needs to be controlled. IMO, there is so much more to it than merely having kids throw treats, which if not carefully structured also has the possibility of being perceived by the dog as a threat, as Rom says. This wouldn't be good for the dog and certainly not good for the kids (or kids thereafter). IMO it is not so much about "what the kids do" as "what you do". First - the dog needs to learn to defer to you in times of stress. He can only do that if he perceives you as a leader upon which he can depend. Then he'll be in the best frame of mind possible to trust in your government during behaviour modification training. Using children as 'decoys' upon which to work up a dog's behaviour needs to be handled and orchestrated very carefully (IMO). Safety of the children must be held paramount and I like to presume thoughts of this have already been considered and catered for both during and inbetween behaviour training sessions. BUT .... once more it must be said (even if only to direct it at myself ) that we cannot advise over the net. Only the OP and the OP's selected trainer has observed and assessed the dog's behaviour and temperament and that is one huge step ahead from the rest of us.

Excellent post, Lilli. I looked at the OP and knew what I wanted to say and thought "now, how to say it?". But then got distracted away from the PC for a while. I return to find you've said it for me and better than I think I might have been able.

Aah .... I get you. I don't have the Infin8 in front of me but I think I can picture what you mean and how. Although I do wonder if mine is different - it merely has the nose band, which is attached to one side of the collar. The nose band loops over and under (or vice versa) the dog's muzzle in a figure 8 fashion and the end of the nose strap then attaches to the other side of the collar. Is that what you mean? I haven't had cause to use the Infin8 on dogs, so hadn't recognised this as a possible 'side-affect'. I actually didn't realise it would have had that much leverage. Shall have another squizzy at it with that point of view in mind. Thanks for the explanation.

Hi PF :rolleyes: Would you mind explaining this to me? The Infin8's work from behind the dog's neck via the martingale style section of collar. You get less physical directional movement in this way, so I would have thought less leverage/strain/injury risk than the usual head collars?

Maybe, maybe not. Much depends on how you use whichever training tool. However, given that you are under direction of a trainer and that your trainer has had the advantage of observing your dog (where we have not), perhaps he/she saw the benefits over another tool other than the Infin8. I don't really think it sounds like the trainer "told you off", but the trainer should be sympathetic to YOUR capabilities in handling your dog rather than what the trainer THINKS he/she could manage. There are ways and means of training and of weaning off (often it's the handler who needs to learn to be able to "wean off") certain tools before another tool which might end up being more effective, can be properly manipulated. Seeing as you are under the direction of a trainer, return to your school with your concerns and ask them for more help given your current difficulties in holding onto your dog with anything less than a head-collar. Let us know how you get on. :rolleyes: