Erny

I'll admit to not ever having used the toilet mats to teach house-training, so I'm not sure how large they are. But have you tried using two mats? I've often observed that dogs urinate and defacate in different spots.

LMC - in relation to your dog's barking behaviour occurring only in the car and just as I posted earlier, you need to determine the cause of the barking. Is it fear? Is it excitement and if it is, is it the anticipation of where he's going, or excitement elicited by the movement of travel .... or both? Or is it something else? If your dog has fear of travel then I would not recommend the use of an anti-bark collar. Instead you need to desensitise your dog to the car/car travel to allay his fears. If it is excitement, have you tried crating him (crate training first) and travelling with a blanket over the crate? We here at the other end of cyberspace can't determine the cause for you so if you are not sure what the cause is, it might help to engage the services of a behaviourist who will be able to observe and perhaps better read the nuances of your dog's behaviour and body language.

In essence, the general concensis of opinion (through experience) has been that they might work in the very short-term but that the dogs become accustomed to the sound they emit and therefore the startle factor, which is really what it mostly incites, becomes lost. As for your electronic anti-bark collar - do you have one of the ones that starts at a low stim and escalates upwards if/when the dog continues to bark? If this is the case, discussions I have had with others indicates that these can produce problems. They sound good in theory, but some dogs learn to work them out. And like yours, as seems to be the case, don't perceive the stimulation until it reaches what is possibly an over-stimulation. That your dog gets to bark some of the time (through the lower level stimulation) is not congenial to training your dog not to bark. The anti-bark collar that I have recently deployed has a dial where you set the stimulation to suit the dog. IE Where the stimulation is effective for every time the dog barks but where it is no more intense than is necessary to be effective. This brand and style of collar was recommended to me by K9 Force, and was not before he and I entertained a number of conversations about the variety of anti-bark collars that are presently available. My preference is to consult with the owner and observe their dog (including asking questions) to as closely as possible determine the cause of the barking behaviour (for the reasons I've mentioned in my post that you've quoted). A further and certainly no lesser importance the consultation serves is to determine the dog's temperament as suitable for use of the electronic anti-bark collar. I didn't take a moment to pause and look to see what State you reside in (if your profile gives that information at all) but you should know that in Victoria legislation provides that : You obtain permission from your Vet to be allowed to use the electronic anti-bark collar with your dog; and The electronic anti-bark collar be used under the supervision and instruction of a qualified dog trainer. The reason behind the first of these two pre-requisits is because Vets supposedly are best able to determine your dog's temperament suitability and a qualified trainer can explain, guide and assess appropriate stimulation levels of the collar. I'm not sure about the first pre-requisite - numerous Vets (disclaimer : not all) don't have the opportunity (or even sufficient knowledge of behaviour) that trainer/behaviourists have of observing and assessing temperament nor do many Vets understand how the more suffisticated electronic anti-bark collars operate. ETA: Notice you live in Perth. I have no idea what the laws for use of electronic devices on dogs are in your State.

Yes - I think the 'blanket' legislation is in place, but it's left to the Council's own devices as to which way they wish to handle things. The other thing you need to give thought to is the possibility of : The Council fairly easily changing policies; and You ever moving from one shire to another.

Jeff - :rolleyes: Ducky - we're all here really very concerned at the reality that the mistakes you are going to make during the course of your dog's training in this chosen area is going to land some terrible problems. Which is the reason we are presently persisting with our posts. Is it likely that you might change your mind and go the track of professional tuition, or will you be insisting on reading books and then just having a go?

:rolleyes: Wow! That's a huge blanket statement and generalisation! Got evidence to back that one up? If it wasn't for the fact that the dogs are often the ones who pay the greater price for the mistakes, I'm quite happy for people to read books and "try it out" on their dogs. More work for the "gurus".

Boy!! Even the books you purchase are cheap! I could easily spend $700.00 on great books and still not even fill a shelf, much less a library. And even then, those books will not be context specific to me and my dog. Assuming the mistake/s you make are fixable, it will probably end up costing you more in the long run.

Things You Should Know ..... Exerpt : "Protection training is defined as training a dog to attack people or animals and includes the training of a dog to attack a human wearing padded protective clothing for any purpose including sport. It is not considered appropriate for a member of the community who is not a licensed security guard to have access to an attack trained dog and this is reflected in the strict provisions of the Domestic (Feral and Nuisance) Animals Act. Dogs that have received this type of training will be declared as a dangerous dog by a Council." Note: This is Victorian Legislation.

It's ok Pandii - I'm happy to be corrected. I am not sure about the laws in this regard myself. Will see if I can find out .....

So you're not going to be teaching/competing in this, Kelpie-i ? .......................

I may be way off, but at least here in Victoria my understanding is that a security trained dog is supposed to be declared a "Dangerous Dog" and housed according to the "Dangerous Dog Laws". But that doesn't really help you, Midol. Sorry.

JeffnCel .... that's great things are on the improve. Just don't forget that she is ONLY 8.5 months old. Although obviously you can expect more from her than when she was a pup, don't expect more from her than what she is capable of. I guess I'm trying to say move forward by training for reliability, but avoid rushing things by increasing intensities too quickly.

Remember though, Ducky, you are not dealing with bricks, mortar, nuts or bolts here ..... you would be dealing with another being's emotions borne through drives .... an individual animal with a brain of its own, and with its own nuances. Books alone will never give you the 'feel' and intuition you learn through experience. And when it comes to protection work, you can't afford to make the sort of mistakes you might make when teaching things such as obedience and/or tracking. Make the wrong mistakes in protection training and you could be writing a death sentence for your dog, not to mention injury certificates for other people. I believe there are people who will teach people to train their dogs in protection work. I believe they are selective about who they will agree to train - as those trainees need to demonstrate a dedication to what they are doing and also a willingness to follow direction. It takes more than one person to train a dog in protection work. And the second person needs to very much know what they are doing - as much as if not more than the dog-handler. I would never knock the value of information that can be gained through books. But I would not trust a surgeon whose CV only listed "I read books". The results of his surgery could be catestrophic and tragic.

So ..... if I understand you correctly, she wakes and you take her out to the toilet. Then you put her back, but then she won't settle - instead, she barks. Is that what you are saying? And because she's barking, you get up and put her out. But then she barks because she wants back in. Am I still on the right track? Provided you are certain that her vocalisation is NOT because she needs to go out to the toilet, then ignore the barking. When she has an empty bladder, I'm assuming she's barking because she wants attention - YOURS. And she gets it. And so the behaviour (which is working just fine for her) is reinforced and therefore strengthened. So, take her out at 5am - let her toilet. Put her back to bed and be prepared to ignore the barking that ensues. Ear plugs are handy . Gradually work forwards in (say) half hour increments over time, until she's able to make it through to a more reasonable hour before she needs to go to the toilet. She's only a baby so don't rush toilet training too much. There's only so much bladder control they are capable of, but it does increase as she develops. In the scheme of things, this doesn't take long, although it can feel like a life-time when you're the one with the broken sleep. But I guess that's what Mums feel like too, when they have a new baby.

Birds aside ..... I think you need to concentrate on what you are doing in the recall (ie motivation levels) as well as explore leadership/respect your dog perceives in and for you. Do you go to a training school? It would be good if an instructor can observe you and your dog to first see if some work needs to go into your foundation training of the recall and whether there is more room for you to be motivating for your dog. IMO, that would be step one. Training your dog in drive (there is a really long thread on Training in Drive - created by K9 Force) here on DOL. Have a read through it. If you can teach your dog that you control the means to drive satisfaction that would be a further step towards your dog chosing to work with you. Much depends on the effort you want to put into it as to the degree of reliability you achieve - especially as he's already worked out how to attain drive satisfaction without you. It's certainly not impossible and you should engage training to achieve what YOU desire as a challenge and as fun.

Is it possible that he's only chasing them when they begin to fly off (because you've walked out into the backyard)? Knowing this doesn't in itself solve your problem, but exploring the actual trigger for the chasing can make a difference to your training plan. I'd also be looking at your recall quality. Is there room for you to build it up? Make it a standard thing that you recall your dog everytime you exit into the back-yard. Make your dog anticipate great things from you whenever you recall your dog and whenever you enter the back-yard. Work to try to get your dog to enjoy the recall more than chasing the birds. You might need to do some foundation work in your recall first, if it's not already generally good and reliable under lesser distraction. ETA: As per Reddii's advice above - training in drive is an excellent method. Drive satisfaction is what your dog is after, so try to train and give it to him in behaviours you would prefer.

I saw Ridgy in the first photo ..... and with the up-dated photo's, I still see Ridgy. Trying to pick the actual 'cross' is difficult. I don't detect ACD - are the Vets only using the mottling in his white patches to go by for that guess? Is that where they get the idea of ACD from? If so, I doubt that would be a reliable predicter.

Some terriers carry more of a propensity for inter-male aggression. You should be aware of it, but that's not to say you accept it without working to avoid, control and where possible, modify it.

Both of you can be leader ..... he might see one above the other - but that doesn't matter. What does matter is that he perceives himself as on the very bottom of the heirarchy ladder. I can only guess - but I'd suggest your dog is challenging/testing you. Perhaps you've exhibited some strengthening of your leadership skills (and yes, obedience training does help to reinforce, but is often not sufficient on its own if things are out of place at home in daily interactions), and he's testing to see if you really have what it takes, or challenging them because he recognises your efforts to climb up the rungs, but doesn't believe in them ..... or both.

Is that why you didn't say "thanks" for my last effort to help you in your other thread? You're tired, GSD FAN ..... I know what that feels like so I'll forget about your response above.

..... I don't know what questions are asked of the NDTF in their distance learning essays/assignments/tasks .... but I've already answered the first question by GSD FAN and now I'm wondering if this is an easy way of getting the answers???? Huh? Hence - I'm holding back and would first like to know what the NDTF students here think it is . But I should add - if you give the Pavlov's Dog example or the "show lead - dog gets excited" example as your answer (in your Instrumental/Classical Conditioning question in the other thread), I don't think you'll get great marks ..... 'cause they are pretty common examples.

GSD Fan ..... what do YOU think it means? What would you suggest as a definition? Any ideas?

WinGus .... this is where you NEED to know the cause behind the behaviour. If the cause is excitement, having visitors feed treats can increase that excitement - after all, she'll be beside herself waiting for people to arrive because great things occur when they do. If it's fear .... well, it depends on your dog and when that fear really first begins to exhibit 'signs'. Sometimes people miss the very early signs. And of course, we can't tell you "when" because we aren't there to observe. Be careful that your visitors are not reinforcing fear behaviour by treating your dog at the wrong time. If you're not sure about the cause for behaviour and are unable to work it out, perhaps having a behaviourist visit will help, so you know what you're dealing with and can be set on the right path to how to deal with it. There is little that can be advised over the internet and trying to 'pick things up' from it (from this thread or others) and applying them to your dog carries the potential of making things worse. Of course, it is your call in that respect. The safest thing that can be advised though is to have your visitors completely ignore your dog. You need to work on preventing the fear or excitement (or whatever else it might be) behaviour and this will mean using means by which you have the control to do so. But then, if it's fear, you also need to know/understand your dog's "threshold" so you can work at copeable distances to begin with. I'm sorry - I know you'll be hoping you can work something out from what I've written and I know that what I've written might appear somewhat cryptic. But it is only because I don't know your dog that I simply can't responsibly give you a step by step count-down of what to do and when. What you read here are merely 'tips' .... by no means is it intended as a full program with which to work.

Perhaps I'm a bit tired and missed that part. Thanks for pointing it out. How often is he urinating? I'm wondering on the possibility of a bladder infection or some such.

Then this is perhaps giving you a clue - or at least something to utilise that works and avails to you the opportunity to reward him for desired behaviour. Is he actually crying to be let out to toilet though, or is he crying simply to be let out (perhaps because he doesn't like being chained up)? Yeah - they can be such little individuals! How old was he when you got him? That's why I mentioned about crate training. Have a read of the "Red Book" ADT give their new members. There's a section in there on crate training. A search in the "training forum" here (use the DOL search engine) will bring up a good amount of information on crate training. If there's anything you're unsure of in relation to crate training, as a member you are entitled and have access to the ADT trainers who will be able to answer queries. Have you spoken with the people at ADT about the problems you are experiencing? If so, what have their suggestions been?