Erny

If exercise in the morning is a concern because of feeding times, why not change the feeding time to evenings? Also - I'd ask is she used to being alone? As you say, you spend a lot of time with her ..... but has this created a situation where she is now not independantly confident? In addition - I'd be checking your "pack status". Dogs stress less when THEIR "leaders" leave, than they would when THEIR "pack" leaves. After all, the leader bears the responsibility to protect the pack. If the dog perceives itself as leader, there can be a lot of stress when its pack disappears and it is precluded from carrying out its instinctive role in life.

Sas - the second fear impact period is generally depicted by the sudden fearful behaviour of a dog to stimuli - even stimuli it had not previously exhibited fear behaviour to before. Now - without me hitting the 'books' on it again to refresh my memory, but I'm pretty sure the Second Fear Impact period is hormonally based, whereas the "Critical Period" (in the pup's early weeks) is more developmental. That's probably a bit "cut and dried" as an explanation and I'd need to give it more time to word it better.

You would be referring to "JetAir Collars". They spray a jet of cold compressed air when the dog barks. I've had some success with these collars - but not a high percentage. They are good for the more sensitive temperamented dogs. I hire them out (I'm in Melbourne) as does Steve (K9 Force - Sydney). IMO, because of these collars not having a high success % (it's about 60%, I believe), I think it is worth a person's while to hire first. If they aren't successful, you haven't spent the full purchase price on one. I do prefer them over the citronella - for the reason you mention in your post. Do you take opportunities to go out to her when she is NOT barking at neighbourhood noises - to tell her she's good and to reward her then, with your attention?

OMG!!!! Thank you for posting this here, Rugerfly !!!!! HAPPY BIRTHDAY ROM !!!! I'm glad I didn't miss this opportunity. You've been such a help. I hope your Birthday is full of wonderful surprises, joy and happiness. Many happy returns. :cool: ;)

Difficult to tell on the small amount of information given and without seeing your dog. Your dog has "always been submissive to older/bigger dogs at the dog park". Could be that your dog has always been a bit on the "concerned" side and given her maturation, now feels she needs to do something about it. So it might not be the second fear impact period - it might be something that's been developing but 'signs' of that have been missed (sometimes those signs can be quite subtle and to those who don't know, easily missed). Maybe this component is exacerbated by the second fear impact period. ... it is sometimes quite awkward to separate things and to distinctly tell. What you need to do is to make sure that your dog sees you as a capable leader - and a capable leader is one who will ensure that their dog is and feels safe from what it fears (and that the dog perceives that) and that the dog can always trust in that leadership. Note that this is done with a "calm-assertive" attitude - be careful not to inadvertently reinforce fear behaviour by molly-coddling and trying to re-assure your dog. If you're not sure whether your "leader" relationship is perceived by your dog as well as it can be, and/or if you're not certain how to manage and deal with the situation concerning other dogs, I would recommend that you organise to see a trainer/behaviourist or, if there is someone capable at your dog school, chat with them.

Well - keep up all your readings and you're sure to come across many many more conflicting information. People better not try to help you with giving you free information then. Don't know what your expectations are GayleK ..... but on more than just a few occasions (not just in this thread), you've been really insulting to the same people you are using to self source. Little thanks that is to those who have donated their time to you.

Don't recall the thread - looked for it, but couldn't find it. But there have been oodles of threads on the same topic and I know a search using the DOL search engine will show you that there are many of us who advocate careful, wise and broad socialisation experiences during the pup's critical period - along with discussions on "why".

Oh, sorry. I know you've said that you don't want (or need?) a trainer to help you, but further on I thought you were asking me the "how to" ? Apologies if I've misunderstood the purpose of your post that asked that. :D Happy training. ;) ETA: GayleK - reflecting on this, I'm a bit puzzled with your view and am now wondering if you think that engaging a trainer means the trainer does the work for you? If that's what you're thinking, that's not the case. We explain, show and coach YOU. Same deal as you getting your info from books except that instead of buying books, you're buying the trainer's services. The latter is of course the most ideal for person AND dog, for the reasons that have already been discussed here. If the above is not what you meant, then I'm not sure what the difference is between you learning from books or learning from a trainer (other than efficiency in training, which comes from the latter).

I won't be doing that, thanks anyway. Ah well. It was an opportunity for you, 'tis all, seeing as you said you wanted to know. Offer stands should you wish to change your mind. Or, as it seems you might live elsewhere, if you let us know your location there are other good trainers who I'm sure we could recommend to you, should you want to increase your knowledge and skills to benefit the task you seek of your dog. :D

What? The "how to" ? You're welcome to contact me to arrange a date/time and I'll give you a lesson on it. Much easier to do it this way. I get to see your dog, its responses - and can coach you there and then for the results you seek :D. Less time (hence more economical ;)) than trying to write it all out in 'book style' at the same time trying to cover all contingencies that MIGHT (or might not) occur.

Thanks Jeff - have replied. So much to do, so much to do....................... As for the petition - I guess unless someone with government insight and/or legal knowledge can help me, I'm going to need to wait until some certain people get back from Christmas leave. But thanks to those that have offered suggestions. They have allowed me to re-write it to the degree that I think it reads easier and is more succinct. :D Thanks for the *bump* for help, Jeff ;). :D

Why make training more difficult for the dog to learn by putting in that additional intermediatary step, when with the correct technique and appropriate training tool for the dog, the answer can become abundantly clear to the dog (humanely as well as relatively stress free) almost straight away?

Thanks Jeff .... but I'm still not sure about something in the second para. To explain : Legal use of the E-Collar is governed by Section 7E which provides that the user must have their Vet give assent to the dog being in good and suitable physical condition for e-collar use AND must have qualified trainer supervision and/or instruction. (These are not the actual words - just my words to give you an idea) Now, if I could have my own wishes, I'd prefer for the "Vet" part of this to be removed - mainly because I've found MANY many Vets simply don't understand the use of equipment such as e-collars and I expect the same difficulties with regards to the Pressure Point Collar. Many Vets aren't giving opinion on the dog's health or physical condition - they are giving advice to clients based on their very small (if existent) understanding of the equipment in question. And my thoughts are if they are not familiar with the equipment or its uses, why would they want to feel they're sticking their necks out by saying the dog is suitable for the use of same (in fact, HOW could they?) .... from their POV it would feel safer to say "No" (even though they may not realise they are NOT doing the dog or owner any favours by doing so). Ok - so that would leave "qualified trainer" .... and definition needs to be taken into account/taken care of. Let's assume (for the time being) that it is or will be. BUT, if the Government won't entertain anything LESS than "Vet and Trainer" then I would at least be satisfied enough with that for the sake of being able to arrange for the PPCollar to be used legally - even if it does mean a bit more mucking around via the Vet. It wouldn't be my ideal though. So - back to the wording .... In the second paragraph as it reads (in post above) ... The petitioners therefore request that the Legislative Assembly of Victoria reinstate permitted use of the Collar under supervision of a qualified dog trainer or pursuant to ‘restrictive use’ terms for which may be referred to in Section 7E of the said Prevention of Cruelty to Animals Act 1997. Now - I'm thinking of simply removing the words highlighted in red. This would still cover the aim of the petition, wouldn't it, even if the Govt insisted on going down the "Vet" track? I think so. Opinion appreciated. Although still checking the political process side of things out - the wording of this petition may still not be relevant due to "regulation" rather than "legislation". Funny how you've got to do a crash course in politics and its ways to be able to talk to Government.

OK - thanks to the suggestions of a person (not a Legal Eagle, but gave a good go at helping ;) ) I've reworded the Petition Intro .... To the Legislative Assembly of Victoria The Petition of the Residents of Victoria draws to the attention of the House The BENEFITS of use of the “Pressure Point Collar” [the Collar] (also known as the “Pinch” or “Prong” Collar) to dogs in terms of their WELFARE, TRAINING and BEHAVIOUR modification ARE RECOGNISED IN CONTROVERSY with Regulation 7D of Version No. 015 Prevention of Cruelty to Animals Regulations 1997 S.R. No. 159/1997 by which regulation banning use of the Collar was imposed on the public of Victoria. The petitioners therefore request that the Legislative Assembly of Victoria reinstate permitted use of the Collar under supervision of a qualified dog trainer or pursuant to ‘restrictive use’ terms for which may be referred to in Section 7E of the said Prevention of Cruelty to Animals Act 1997. The italics represent the wording that I've put in - first para to "describe the circumstances of the issue" and the second para to state "the request of the petitioners, showing clearly the nature of the remedy or action requested". I think it now reads better, although I'm still not sure I've covered what I need to cover to ensure appropriate emphasis. Heck - it turns out I may have had myself confused and that the "PPC-ban" is regulation not legislation and that the petition wording I've been directed to follow is incorrect. Still checking .............................

This is where "technique" comes into it GayleK. Easier to show than to explain - explanation often taken out of context or not believed by many until seen, in any case. I have only popped in here because I was checking up on something else, so haven't given consideration that your question deserves. One thing I will say though - "no pull" type harnesses tend to rely on a pinching type of effect under the sensitive, soft and unprotected area in the dog's arm pits. I do not believe the harnesses are designed to be utilised in the same fashion as a (eg) "Pressure Point Collar" (aka prong or pinch collar) either, but in any case, the area upon which the PPC rests and functions is not as thin skinned, IMO. ETA: The Head Collar works on tightening (at the very least) and depending on the dog and its actions/responses, risks friction and the affects of friction to the skin. The Head Collar also works on the dog's neck muscle and skeleton - by altering its head position (potentially and considerably dangerous). Not so the PPC. So in essence, GK .... you've made the three tools sound similar by your interpretation but when you think more about it, they are each different, affect different parts of the dog's body and need to be used differently.

HELP please !!!! I'm organising the petition referred to above. There are fairly strict rules that need to apply to petition wording if they are to be accepted into Legislative Assembly. I've mentioned a few of the rules further in this post. This is the wording I've so far put up ... "To the Legislative Assembly of Victoria The Petition of the Residents of Victoria draws to the attention of the House In controversy with Regulation 7D of Version No. 015 Prevention of Cruelty to Animals Regulations 1997 S.R. No. 159/1997 by which regulation banning use of the “Pressure Point Collar” [the Collar] (also known as “Pinch” or “Prong” Collar) was imposed on the public of Victoria, the benefits of use of the Collar to the dog in terms of its welfare, training and behaviour modification. The petitioners therefore request that the Legislative Assembly of Victoria reinstate permitted use of the Pressure Point Collar (also known as “Pinch” or “Prong” Collar) under supervision of a qualified dog trainer or pursuant to similar/same ‘restrictive use’ terms referred to in Section 7E of the said Prevention of Cruelty to Animals Act 1997. The BLACK font is MANDATORY wording - it forms a part of the prescribed petition "form". I have inserted the RED paragraph in the section where the prescribe form dictates that I "insert here the circumstances of the issue". I have inserted the GREEN paragraph in the section where the prescribed form dictates that I "insert here the request of the petitioners, showing clearly the nature of the remedy or action requested." I am a bit stumped on what the Govt are or will be looking for and whether I've said enough or whether to say further is too much. I've spent the last few hours on this - adding, amending, changing .... and I'm no more confident with the wording now as I was when I first addressed this. SO I NEED YOUR HELP PLEASE, if SOMEONE would? . Now - a few "Petition Rules" to observe : A brief paragraph(s) must be included giving the reasons for the petition and should end with the action asked for. No letters, affidavits or other documents (other than translations) can be attached or incorporated on the front of a petition sheet. The wording must be respectful and not offensive. No reference can be made to debates that have taken place in Parliament. No information that seeks support for the petition should be added .... Please help - I am completely stumped and brain-strained from thinking about it for far too long. I have a blog-space ready to go so I need to get this Petition Form finalised and attached ASAP. People will then be able to open in PDF, print out, sign and post it back. Hoping for some early replies ..... I've made some phone calls but the people who I thought would be the most able to help are away for the Christmas duration (some for up to a month .... ).

Hey BP .... I'm still sorry that you didn't receive the right tuition - or, by the sounds of it NO tuition. If is as reported, then the fault was the school, but there are definately better schools out there. Evidenced by this : .... Having said that, I agree that nothing beats a private lesson - even if it is just a "here and there" situation to get people over the hurdles they might be experiencing. In relation to this thread, however, the original post content asks "which training tool?". I honestly don't think that can be answered in "blanket" fashion. As has been mentioned, much depends on the dog, its age, physical health; the problems being experienced, the owners' capabilities etc. etc. There is no one book that necessarily covers every one of those aspects. To recommend a book means an assumption that the general joe will be able to interpret it appropriately and determine whether their dog and their situation suits. It's good that you've managed to do that (although perhaps some of the actual tuition you did receive gave you a bit of a heads up with coming to understand training), but it's a tall assumption to expect that many others will be able to do the same without coming a cropper.

ETA: The point of the above ..... it is NOT so much about the tool, although the right tool for the right dog for the right handler for the right reasons does help a lot. It is VERY MUCH about the training technique and HOW the chosen tool is used. And if a person doesn't know how to properly use the tool, there is no substitution for good tuition. IMO, there is no escaping this. So no, I don't think the thread went OT. BP - if you've not found tuition helpfull, then perhaps you didn't find the right teacher and I'm sorry if that was the case for you. I wouldn't have thought that is commonly so, though.

And in these cases, it's about the proper technique, which in turn helps the dog learn faster. This is often less stressful on the dog. ETA: I've just given a lesson to a person who has for the last couple of years tried (in his own way) to teach his dog to walk on a loose lead. He'd tried numerous tools, including flat collar; check chain and head collar. His dog is great in every other way, as far as basic obedience is concerned. He is for the most part a "positive trainer" so to speak. When out on this lesson, his dog was walking nicely on lead within the first 15 minutes (I didn't time it and I think I'm being generous with the time allowance.) At the end of the lesson I mentioned to him that he now needs to make walking "fun" for both of them. Praise/reward more. Relax. Allow the dog to enjoy. Allow himself to enjoy this new 'walking' experience. I thought that perhaps he wasn't praising/rewarding as much as he ought because he felt uncomfortable with someone (ie me) watching over him. I had to continue to remind him to take a second here and there to praise his dog. He admitted to me that it wasn't that I was looking on but that he'd spent so much time throughout his walks stopping and trying to bring his dog back to a loose lead that he'd FORGOTTEN how to have fun with it. I heard from him again the next day to let me know that his dog still remembered the lesson from the day before and that walking was now beginning to be such a delight. For him AND for his dog. I love it when I see a happy harmony in an exercise (and in other cases, in relationships) evolve where it might have been lacking before. Makes my day.

Completely agree with Tony. Teaching a dog not to pull on lead is generally effected within a VERY short space of time ..... even ones that have spent their lifetime with their owners LEARNING to pull. The tool you use does play a part towards interpreting the message to the dog, but the way you work the exercise delivers the message in the first place. Months? Ah ah. One session to begin achieving results? Yes.

Great pressy, LL. I can just see you lolling back on your lounge chair, with esky near by, and your dogs running off at your bidding to fetch/retrieve your sunscreen; magazines; more wine .......... LOL

If the "sparkle" is lost then IMO the corrections applied are not being applied properly or appropriately AND/OR the rewards given are not sufficient to create the balance required. If your method is working for you and your dog, Bridget, then it must be the right method in your instance. I'll look forward to hearing of your "trial ring successes" .

I agree with dogdude. The correction also needs to be effective. If it's not and cannot be achieved without causing physical harm, then I think the training tool of use needs to be re-considered. (And this is where the argument/quest for lifting of the "prong-collar use" ban presently clouding Victoria is IMO very relevant.) Note that I do not use physical correction in all cases, but I will use it where appropriate (to the dog's temperament AND behaviour) and necessary. This is the other thing that many "positve trainers" tend to assert when 'debating' about or against any form of training that involves physical corrections ..... they purport that the whole or larger percentage of our training comprises of physical corrections. In fact though, this is not the case - an (do I need to insert here "well-timed and appropriately placed?) effective correction will alter the dog's behaviour sufficiently to allow a wider and more frequent window of opportunity to occur so that many more and frequent positives can be applied. Faster learning is then achieved and this in itself is less stressful to the dog. Thanks for asking, Anita. :cool:

Hey! So marry me!!! From what I've read so far, we think very much alike! Merry Christmas, Mark .... and to all.

And to you, Rusky ..... let's hope 2008 proves to be a great one. For us. For dogs. For everyone. Sorry . A bit of Christmas sentimentality and spirit creeping in here :cool:.