Erny

:D Tony - if you don't hear back from me here after Christmas, you'll know I've eloped with Santa in his reindeer sleigh. Cheers Tony - have a great Chrissy.

Yeah well, I figure that any Santa who can make it up on my roof and then down my chimney has to be part-way to fit and well-toned. Although after that exertion, he might be a tad sweaty. Hey .... if he fits all the other criteria, I don't mind sweaty .....

Mine would. Your pup is inside the "critical period". Experiences inside this period are permanent. If your older dog's reactions to the pup are appropriate (tolerance, but putting puppy in its place in an appropriate fashion) that's not a problem .... but if they are not (due to your older dog having an issue) then you have a real concern. Hopefully in time to not cause permanent damage (physically AND emotionally) to your pup. I would be concerned too. And no .... IMO, it is not normal and certainly not acceptable (as you're already aware). I'd strongly recommend you get someone in to help you. You may be very surprised at what you can do but haven't been, and/or what you are doing but shouldn't be. Let a trainer/behaviourist observe your dogs and your relationship with them and assist you make adjustments to suit for the greater long term good. And I wouldn't be putting this off - the earlier and more immediate, the better. Do you need any help with recommendations for trainer/behaviourists that would be able to help you in this situation? K9 Force Welcome to DOL Jim ..... there's lots of help to be had here and we're all interested in your progress. :D

Erny, you've just scared the kiddies again................. :D So sue me And I flatly refuse to go out with an old, tired and SWEATY Santa !!! My Christmas wish for myself? That Santa this year is young, fit, healthy, tall, dark, handsome, muscled .......

Rusky - you do seem to be one who takes into account only the extreme ends of each perspective, even though throughout this thread "moderation" and "fairness" has been the doctrine. did they tell you that? Without tracking back and re-reading each post here, I'm not sure where you took this quote from ..... so I'm unsure of the context in which it was written. But regardless, your response is not one that is founded in fact or science. It's probably not an argument at all. I guess I could counter it by asking you "do they tell you otherwise"? ETA: Rusky - I think it is great that you have the strength of conviction enough to join in this discussion . I think there are many that don't and are not. Healthy debate is a great way to learn. :D

It seems to me that some of those who used to talk about "purely positive" or "positive only" are now coming away from that description. Not necessarily that they are changing their views or methodologies (or are they, perhaps by increments?) but they do now seem to be asserting that they will use "passive punishment". Now - is this a way of simply not opening the argument that was ever present when one spoke of "positive only"? Or is it that they recognise (by theory or by experience) that indeed, punishment often does form a necessary PART in a dog's learning career?

Hi .... just to post an update (as much as can be posted here anyway) .... These are the things I now need :- Submissions from Professional Trainers (these have been promised but so far, none received). Submissions from Group Organisations. This part is difficult ..... because most of these organisations are "breed groups" and given the current trend of Councils, Welfare Societies and Govt targetting "breed", many are understandably frightened to bring attention to their breed - attention that might be twisted to suit the Government's "other" BSL legislation. I'm not sure how to handle that - between the various legislations it feels as though 'they' have tied it all up in a nice tidy bow. Submissions from Group Organisations would be valuable, but I understand any reluctance. Petition. Unfortunately the Govt will ONLY recognise signatures to Victorian residences. This is awkward, as the ban on prong-collars has been in for just over 4 years and this has precluded many from even knowing they exist, let alone how they are designed to work and their benefits. BUT I do plan to design (if I can .... I am NOT computer literate and wouldn't have a clue how to begin this) a down-loadable petition form and ask that people sign and send it to a nominated address. (I must have original signatures, so snail mail return will be necessary. I will ALSO make the petition available to our other States of Australia and although it won't be able to be formally recognised by our statute (right word?) laws, it may at least lend further weight to the strength of public opinion. At least 3 more letters from Vets who recognise the value of the prong-collar in so far as it being the better training tool for NOT causing ill-effect to the dog physically (including muscularly and skeletally). For people to make an appointment to meet with their OWN local MP. This last is VERY IMPORTANT. I have consulted with my local MP, but his presentation to parliament will be a lone voice unless the assistance of others is also sought. To this end I am willing to accompany anyone to their meeting with an MP (distance dependant I guess - within reason) should they prefer me to be the spokesperson. (I have become quite conversant with the prong-collar and with answering to questions about it, as well as to the animal-welfare aspect and to certain (albeit limited) extents, legislative law (thanks to Rom :rolleyes:.) So in all or any of the above ..... I CANNOT do this without you and would be glad of your help. PS. Some new information pertaining to when the ban on use of prong-collars was legislated in 2004, has come to light. It is interesting, to say the least ...... and reveals a couple of anomolies which are encouraging.

Hi TSD. I have to agree with you that EDUCATION is indeed the key and this is what MUST be promoted above, beyond and before all else. Unfortunately, IMO, the legislations that are being passed; the ban after ban after ban; the "we've got our fingers in our ears because we don't want to listen to you and our way is the only right way because it sounds nice, warm, fuzzy and cushy to our 'groomed' version of society these days" act as a continual blocker to people opening up their minds to receiving that education. Either that, or those for whom "positive only" does not work for them are intimidated and made to feel guilty for even contemplating something other than that ..... so they hit the books or TV - and we know that books and TV are not structured or designed to suit every dog, every person, on their own individual merits. As for the Cesar Millan "alpha roll" component of his methodology ..... I do not condone "alpha roll". Let that be clear. Above all it is dangerous to the owner. Having said that I don't have pay TV and the only televised episode I've had opportunity to watch of his was one involving a somewhat 'rude' JRT. The "alpha roll" that he used comprised of a very quick well-timed gesture using three fingers of one hand on the dog's shoulder - the dog volunteered a very appropriate submissive posture. Of course there was more to what he did in that episode, but I was not horrified at what he did. But again - I have not seen other episodes that demonstrate this further. And I guess it doesn't matter how many times you say "do not try this at home" ..... people will hear only what they want to hear, or as seems to be the case these days, are conditioned to hear. We need to remember that people are like sheep (yes, even me sometimes .... until I can in all consciousness no longer) and it is far easier to be a follower and receive approval than it is to stand up against the tide and say what you believe in. Strength and courage to do so comes from a passion - a passion that is SELFLESS and serves no personal agenda. Mark has done this. And I applaud him. And I stand with him also. It's about time the blinkers were removed from the few who yield power and who demonstrate that power in a manner befitting an animal that is afraid. IE Without wisdom. Without forethought for what is ultimately best. ...... :rolleyes: Erny steps down from soap-box .....

My sister's dog (a Beardie) does this also. When I dog sit for her, I give Monty a ball to hold (which he loves to do). If he can bark at all, it is somewhat muffled :rolleyes:.

Sorry Kavik ..... I used the word "but" in that post which makes it sound as though in some way I disagreed with you. I don't disagree. Not at all.

Try removing her from "watching" or "playing" when she begins to vocalise. By stopping the other two from playing you are removing the "trigger" but not addressing the "behaviour". Have you tried teaching "speak" and "quiet"? If she knows this, you can give her the "quiet" command when she first barks and remove her from watching or playing if she barks beyond that. Problem with either of these is that you do need to be around to apply it.

Not from me, Mark. Well written post.

The other thing I meant to ask, as an aside, is who began the "can't use certain words" because of how THEY depict them? Eg. I NEVER viewed the word "dominance" to mean "be brutal" or "throw the dog around" or "force to submission". Who made it so that it is now commonly and vastly read as though words such as "dominance" are bad? I know there are some genes that are dominant and others that are recessive. I don't conjure a mental image of the dominant gene wrestling the recessive gene to the ground until it submits into urination. I'm finding in so many things these days that it is getting progressively more difficult to explain anything because now you first have to find ten words where normally one word would do just fine and well.

Yes - but both of these implied analogies are used with abundance frequency in most if not all of their arguments. They seem to conveniently ignore that balanced trainers will use "positive" where positive works and rather, paint a picture as though we love nothing more than thrashing around corrections using training tools to produce dogs that urinate and quake in fear. What good trainer would want THAT as their result? No training is accomplished with a dog in that emotional state. It completely goes against what we want for the dog and certainly would do nothing to help us pay for the butter on our bread. But of course it all sounds "politically correct" when they paint that picture and many people in society these days put great store in that. Pity, because I know of a good number of dogs with whom positive training was unsuccessful and who found their way through to us ..... a whisker away from the 'green dream'. I don't know how many I don't know about. But I do know of a few whose owners thought any other way than "positive" was wrong and in the absence of behaviour modification efforts using those techniques being successful, sent their dogs on their heavenly way.

From Norma Jeanne's web-site : "although she was taught that most canine aggression was based on ‘dominance’ she found this to be untrue. She learned through experience that most aggressive dogs were reacting to fear and were forced to defend themselves, many resulting from unpleasant training methods. Many were mis-diagnosed as ‘dominant dogs’ and paid with their lives. Norma Jeanne strongly believes that trainers should not be contributing to the problem, and has made it her life-long goal to present as many humane and effective options possible for training, behaviour and aggression modification, so that the use of fear and pain in training will no longer be necessary. Her awakening came during a class when she did the alpha rollover with a Jack Russell Terrier that was so frightened by her man-handling, that it spun and urinated with fear. During the same class she alpha-rolled an adult Rottweiler. In hind-sight, Norma Jeanne feels this was more than stupid, but that is what she was taught – that every dog had to be physically dominated in order to gain control and respect. Well, this was a big dog – she stood at its side, reached over, grasped his legs and pulled them out from under him. The rotti fell to the ground, raised his head, looked at her and growled. She held firm as she was taught, and growled louder than he did. The dog submitted and she let him up." To begin with IMO the above does NOT depict the "balanced trainer's" way of dealing with issues and there are a number of things wrong with how Norma Jeanne was taught to handle/manage these things. The mere fact that she learned that "most canine aggression was based on 'dominance' was the first thing that brought me to this opinion. But her learnings - just because they weren't necessarily good learnings, doesn't mean that "balanced training" is wrong. So I do not see that her 'argument' against the use of training tools and training methods that include fairly appropriated and delivered corrections along with fairly appropriated and delivered rewards has very good grounding to promote a complete "hands-off" training approach in ALL situations and with ALL dogs. She says herself that "... the tools [use of choke chains, pinch collars] ... seemed to be effective with many dogs ... " Seems to me that she has gone from one extreme to another and missed the bit in between.

It is a difficult one when dogs vocalise during play. Have you tried stopping the play the second your lab x bc vocalises? It will take a while and you'll need to be consistent. ETA: Re-reading ..... I'm now not sure if you mean your lab x bc barks when she is watching the other two play, or when she is joining in with them in play.

Whose blog? The RSPCA's? But if they are so certain they are right in their stance, they shouldn't be frightened of a bit of good, solid debating. If they know what they are talking about, they'll be able to debate it well. I made a response to the link Mark posted - don't know how that will go.

That's the one . Trish also does the private work as well, as does Cosmolo.

I purchased a CD (from the US) called "Canine Lullabies". It is "Heartbeat Music Therapy". I used it once for a restless, whiney pup that stayed here for the day. It seemed to do the trick. Someone else (via DOL) contacted me and I suggested it to her - this person I think was having quite a bit of trouble with her pup not settling down. She wrote back to me to let me know she got it and it worked wonders. Now - that's only TWO occasions ..... hardly enough to be able to confidently attest to its success. But it might be worth trying out. Details : Canine Lullabies

Hi MissMaddy ..... feel free to contact me should you wish. Trish at "4Paws" - presuming you mean Four Paws K9 Training? (there is another place which has a name that is similar and can be confused) is also one I'd recommend. Cosmolo might be a bit more local to you though.

Coco .... how long do you wait with him for him to toilet on the 'toilet mat' in the laundry? Do you wait with him?

I actually posted my question before I realised you'd posted with an "off topic" comment. So sorry, LL ..... no cuts from me. You weren't the first person to begin talking about what the RSPCA does in relation to temperaments of the dogs in their care and why ..... so I really did begin to wonder if it was myself who was reading the OP incorrectly.

Thank you Tony. And may your best wishes be returned to you ten fold. Have enjoyed your many thought provoking contributions here on DOL throughout the year. Merry Christmas and HO HO HO

I will engage in tug-of-war but I prefer to 'win' the toy and then give it to the dog - shows that I am the one who controls this valuable resource. As someone has mentioned - it does depend on the dog and its current relationship with its owners. If I have clients who have asked me to consult because of 'dominance' related issues, and if the strength and/or determination of the dog is such that it is unlikely the owners would be able to control this 'game', then until their relationship with their dog has been improved I'm inclined to suggest they avoid it for the time being at least. IF the situation arises where a dog has fought hard in the tug game and it appears I might lose it, I will 'quit' the game and then ignore the dog and the toy, as though the toy has become unimportant to me. But I'll know better for the next time and begin training for better 'outs'. With more sensitive and/or timid dogs who need confidence boosting, I tend to give them easy 'wins' initially. ETA: I agree with Tonymc - the tug toy can be a valuable training tool.

Don't consider your pup as being "toilet trained" until it has gone for 4 weeks without having an accident. Many people begin to 'relax' a little too early, IMO .... and this sets up for training inconsistencies. Dogmad - I use "quick quick" without any problems. The Guide Dogs Assoc use "quick quick" as well. I found that "quick quick" only worked if we were also on a surface the dog was used to 'going' on (in my girl's case, grass). Body language and tone also has an effect at the time.