Erny

That sounds like a great idea Hey! You guys getting greedy??? Steve's already up in QLD in the next few months, doing a workshop isn't he? Or is that Perth? Or somewhere else? But I guess we could talk about becoming the "travelling trainers" :D

The "Pro-K9" and "K9 Force" seminar/workshop will be held on : Friday (evening) (Seminar) 16th May, 2008 Saturday (Workshop) 17th May, 2008 Sunday (Workshop) 18th May, 2008 Venue : KCC Park 655 Westernport Highway, Skye More details to come.

As do I, RL. Hat off to you for determination and ensuring that all that can be tried will be tried. I really wish for you and your dog a positive breakthrough that will see you with a light at the end of the tunnel.

I haven't read through every post, but just want to make a note here in case it is relevant to any of your cases .... "Separation Anxiety" does tend to be over diagnosed. In many cases, it is lack of "independance training". In other cases it can be "denied access" that causes the dog to behave in some of the ways described. Separation Anxiety is a pretty complex emotional issue for the dog. In some cases, it is very hard if not impossible to cure and for those extreme cases, it is often a matter of "management" - where the dog believes it cannot function without the presence of the person to whom the dog is so attached. If it is separation anxiety, kennelling the dog carries with it the very real potential of making the situation worse. The SA afflicted dog goes to the kennel and stresses. When the dog is picked up he/she is so relieved, but then becomes worried that his/her 'person' will disappear again, so becomes even more clingy. Any time the dog is left, the anxiety levels rise faster and often higher, simply because it now recognises that the separation may be a big one. I know that some 'normal' dogs, when they've stayed at kennels, can be a bit clingy when they return - but that does not necessarily mean they are afflicted by "separation anxiety" issues. Often that 'clingyness' settles down over a day or two and things return to normality. In many cases that I see, it is quite often not "separation anxiety" per se, but more an anxiety where the dog believes it is the leader and as such becomes anxious when it is prohibited from being able to protect and govern its 'pack'. In any case, leadership strategies are prescribed. As to what other program is put into place depends much on the lifestyle of the owner/s. Sometimes it is that very lifestyle that makes it very difficult for an effective program to be followed.

Thanks . Please send to [email protected]

I don't think anyone is arguing that, Carloslex. Was it established that you both used the same trainer, or are you referring to it being the same franchise? I'm not saying this of your trainer Carloslex - of whom it is clear you think a lot of - but there is some food for thought to be had here. If (eg) one trainer knows (eg) one way of dealing with behaviour, at some stage that one trainer is going to have a success. It is how many successes that one trainer has with how many different dogs that tells the story.

Did I miss something? Did Rottylover01 mention a personality clash with any of the trainer/behaviourists who have already been consulted? All the best RL. Good on you for exhausting your options. I know it gets hard to know when to draw the line, but I am keen to know how you get on with whichever decision you make, and even keener to hear some happy news from you in relation to some success .

Yes please .... to show the Government that dogs wearing them are not the unhappy, down-trodden, fearfully submissive dogs they seem to think they must be. Also to show the Government that the PPCollar is not a breed specific nor even necessarily size specific requirement. Please note that unless the person in the pics has identifying features blurred out and is on public property, a "model release" would be required for me to use them. So if anyone has any pics (still or video footage ... vid footage only needs to be a minute or so), please take this into account. I can organise to send through a model release for you to sign if you want or need one. For privacy sake I'm making sure features which might identify location are also being removed. If you are unable to remove these identifying features yourself before submission to me, then simply send a written note with it confirming you want me to arrange to have these identifiers removed and I'll arrange for it to be done. Cheers! Erny

Thanks Cosmolo - have received it. Just got in so haven't had a chance to read it yet. I'm sure it will be good. :p Thanks Mark - I'll look forward to receiving it. :p Have just spent about 20 + hours over the last 3 days doing some more work on the main submission. My eyes are red and square but the main introductory submission is certainly growing. And so is my support network - thank you everyone for your submissions. Without them I can't do this. Thanks also to a couple of people (at least one known well to DOL) who have been putting in some hard yacka behind the scenes and also to one who like a breath of fresh air has also recently swept in and offered to carry through/help with the momentum of mustering support. There is a fair amount of more work to be done yet. Due to some delays in some things (Christmas didn't help) and also due to some additional ideas that seem to keep popping their way in :D. The meeting with the Minister will therefore not be quite as soon as I had originally hoped, but I am pushing full steam ahead with my goal to draw the whole submission to a conclusion as soon as possible. I will let you all know soon where you can down load a petition (PDF) - petition will not lend as much weight as individual submissions but no reason that petition can't be signed by those who have been good enough to make a submission - when it is ready to go. Of course, getting people to sign the petition who otherwise might not have submitted or contributed anything, will also be a help. Anyway, further news on that soon. I'm waiting for my MP to get back to me on something about it, before I put it out. Have had the support of a few Vets too ..... :p . Their letters will be very very helpful. Of course, if anyone knows of more they can get, all the better. DVD's and photo's will also form part of the submission. Collecting footage as I can. Anyone have any contribution they can make there, would definately be helpful. It is rolling along guys - and building.

*bump*

My goodness! Page 6? Can't have it sitting there! I've been working (hours) behind the scenes, trudging my way through government documents and so forth, and refining/additing to the (now 16 pages plus) covering report which will form the introduction to the submission to government. Meanwhile, I would welcome more submissions from folks who recognise and have experienced the benefits of the "Pressure Point Collar" (PPCollar). Also would welcome contact from people who have been able to make an appointment to see their local MP. Remember, that provided the distance is within reason, I am happy to accompany as "spokesperson" if you prefer. Cheers! Erny

What a great offer K9. Good on you .

Bosko - I'm not exactly sure what you mean. But if you are asking if the dog who (for example) "whines" because he/she wants something is actually being "dominant" ...... not necessarily. Could be that the dog has simply learnt (generally as a result of our compliant responses) that whining will get him/her what he/she wants and so uses it, without it being relevant to dominance or submission. Even you making eye contact as a result of the whining dog can be enough to reinforce the behaviour. My avatar girl was a "whiner". If I inadvertently made eye contact when she whined (to check out what was up), it certainly encouraged her (usually it was because she wanted her blanket put over her :p). She was by no means dominant in our social-relationship. I used to use my peripheral vision to "look" but otherwise ignored her. The whining would stop and a bit afterwards I would then put her blanket over her. I'm such a tough owner :D. Is this what you mean?

Glad to hear your persistent consistency is paying off! It's great when you see each incremental break through, isn't it? ;)

Hard for me to be the judge from this end of the keyboard, but I do like to let dogs 'sort it' provided before and afterhand there is not likely to be blood shed. (Balanced) dogs are the best communicators with dogs than we shall ever be, no matter how much study, learning, theory or experience we have under our belts. However, when there are 'family' dogs, sometimes they don't really learn how to appropriately interact with dogs outside of their family. For instance, two RR x Danes I met down at the local park get on famously and happily with each other. They bound and bounce and mock-fight with each other. But each has never learnt to be any more gentle than its other mate needs it to be as they have not socialised with other dogs outside of their circle. And what they might now perceive to be 'appropriate' is commonly not appropriate to other dogs. A friend of mine is adopting a mastiff x . She already has a labrador. The mastiff x is on trial for a few weeks. The job ahead of my friend is to not only monitor the dogs to see if they are compatable at an emotional level, but also to see if she can 'gentle' the playing between the two. The lab loves to hoon around but a first meeting last weekend saw the mastiff x getting too rough with her (still friendly, but throws his body around too much). We stopped play each time we saw it getting too 'exciting' and when they calmed down, allowed them to freely interact again. This is what she is going to be doing over the coming weeks - so in her place, she'll be 'stepping in' to see if she can teach the mastiff (who has never received much in the way of 'boundaries', limitations either to humans or other dogs) some self-control in play. (Personally, I would prefer to see her mix her lab with another breed more suitable to size and strength, given they are both youngs dogs and also seeing BOTH have already had cruciate ligament ops.) So what I'm saying here is that provided you are the dogs' leader (as perceived by them) then you should have the right to 'govern' and step in when things are too over the top. The hard part is not to bow to temptation by stepping in when the other dog might well best be able to deal with it him/herself. As, as I mentioned, their communication amongst each other is far clearer and more accurate than we will ever be. Sometimes, allowing a rambuctious young dog to interact with other dogs outside its family circle (when the ones inside its family circle aren't demonstrating the guidelines we'd prefer) is a good thing - but you need to be very certain that the dogs you choose for this interaction are proven 'level-headed' dogs who are known to interact appropriately. If you are uncertain, then you're best to do this under the supervision of someone who knows and recognises dog behaviour well.

Not necessarily, no. But your other dog should be able to put this one in his place? (assuming all things being well there - eg. that your other dog is not fearful; aggressive; or sporting injuries; health issues or even 'size' issues etc. etc. etc.). You may have put up this information in your earlier posts - apologies if you have, I'd need to refresh my memory.

All whilst ignoring him, make sure you take your space - don't move away when he's on your feet. Nudge/shuffle in to him - make him move from you. Spotted Devil is right - sounds like the extinction burst (ignoring him as you are doing is technically named "extinction training"). Provided it's not a potentially injurous issue, I like the extinction burst ....... shows you that your training is actually working - your dog is perceiving your new regime. Hang in there - provided you don't quit before the extinction burst has peaked and waned, you should begin to see the results you desire.

Ignore the flopping on back and reward the standing on all four paws, as suggested by others. Are we to take you literally that he only does this between your feet? If so you can help set him up for a "win" by not having your feet apart where he can do this. That way you'll manage more opportunity for reinforcement and this will help make the message clearer to your dog. Oh - and thanks for rescuing a dog who needed a home . ETA: If your dog is on his feet and you go to reinforce but he then flops over on his back, immediately withdraw/cease the reinforcement (even part way through) and return to ignoring. And remember that ignore includes not making eye contact.

On the strength of the info supplied, I agree with everyone else's sentiments here. Leadership. Your friend will be doing your dog a favour. And your friend needs to recognise that she is mis-interpreting the "sad" looks and falling right into her dog's paws ..... which is not doing her dog any favours. Imagine how confused her dog is - on the one hand she sends messages which convey to the dog that he rules (and as such, must govern). Then on the otherhand she says no to her dog doing the things her dog thinks he is not only supposed to but is entitled to do. No wonder dogs get rattled and go off the rails at times. Wonder it doesn't happen even more often than it already does. Tell your friend she is doing well by engaging a trainer/behaviourist to help her out. Her dog will be relieved of the load and far less confused than he presently must be.

I agree with Rom. You can't afford to maintain a confidence that ALL (or many?) Dogtech franchises are going to be good trainers. I met a person (who became my good friend) who had Dogtech out - actually, it was before "Dogtech" and it was actually the head-honcho behind the franchise outfit - and was very unhappy with the advice and the results of that advice. She ended up having to undo the damage caused. It is the PERSON behind the franchise that you need to investigage. So in the instances given within this thread where they have had good experiences, I'd be inclined to suggest that the names of the trainers actually be given. Eg. "xyz" from Dogtech in Brisbane/Queensland/or whatever. Otherwise it lulls people into thinking all Dogtech franchises (or whatever other franchise is mentioned) are good. It's not about the name of a business, it's about the trainer him/herself. I saw an add by Dogtech selling one of its franchises. Not verbatum (but close, I think) however its add read something like ".... for sale ... no previous dog experience required". I really worry about a 2 week short course with a person who has no prior dog experience or knowledge, going out and advising others who will know no better to detect whether the advice being given to them is good, bad or otherwise. It is too much a position of trust and when it goes pear-shaped, not only does the dog suffer (priority #1) but so do all the good trainers out there who get tarred with the same brush. As for the cars ...... completely different kettle of fish. They are machines. You know that there might be the occasional 'lemon' but for the most part they are statically similar/same in performance and quirks. Not so dogs. And not so trainers. And definately not so franchises.

I've had discussions with Steve about different brands of anti-bark e-collars. In essence, my preference lays with the types which have a dial level control rather than ones which have auto settings. In this way you can set it to suit the dog's temperament and know that when it barks it will receive an effective but not excessive stimulation. The one that I have recommended and arranged for purchase is the Dogtra YS300 for small to medium size dogs or the Dogtra YS500 for larger dogs. These collars also have a "pulse" setting (a vibration stim). The vibration stim activates with any of the stim levels. Over time, when your dog has begun responding well and the barking is no longer an issue, you can cover the contacts on the collar (covers are supplied) and have the collar on the "pulse" stim only. This means you can leave the collar on for longer periods, as the covers offer a protection to the dog's skin. I've found the anti-bark e-collars the most successful, on a percentage basis. But I have found the JetAir anti-bark Collars good for quite sensitive dogs (temperament speaking). I do like to use the latter where I can, but if the barking behaviour is ingrained, the JetAir collars are not reliably successful IMO. The other disadvantage with the JetAir collars is the expense of the refill cans. If people want to try these I'd definately recommend to hire them for a week or two first. In the initial days of use it might appear that they are working, but the dog can become accustomed to the startle of the shot of air and over this period learn to accomodate it. If you find yourself going through the refill can/s too quickly it indicates your dog is barking through it and that the stimulation is not sufficiently effective to make the dog think twice about it. Hiring them to trial them is considerably cheaper than purchasing them out-right and finding they aren't having the desired effect.

I don't know Ruthless. Depends on whether the cause is boredom or whatever else. And if it is attention seeking and the person comes in when the dogs are vocalising, the cause is further reinforced. Same applies if it is separation related. To know how to deal with the behaviour, you do need to try to work out what the cause could possibly be. Obedience training is very good for regularly confirming your right to govern and therefore frequently re-affirming leadership, but obedience is not the be all and end all of it. I've known some dogs who are actually quite obedient when it comes to obedience skills, but who still perceived their heirarchy status as perhaps equal or above their owners. What are your dogs' boundaries/limitations/guidelines/rules, generally speaking. IE What are the allowed and not allowed to do when (say) in the house? Are you frequently doing things on their terms and not your own?

Using an anti-bark device is not necessarily "masking" the problem. It is a matter (as best as able) of working out what the cause is (eg. boredom; attention seeking; inadvertent reinforcement; separation related; self-reinforcing; etc) and taking steps to reverse that and in SOME cases doing so can lead to reduction/ceasing of the barking behaviour. But in many cases, the barking behaviour - for whatever cause - has become a "learnt" behaviour and as such the symptom needs addressing simultaneously with the cause. How's your leadership status?

Initial light exercise tends to encourage animals to empty themselves. I've never worried about whether the dog toilets on walks or not. I always make sure I've got some poo-bags so I can collect it and put it in the bin. As for marking - I like my dogs to "mind" me (ie consider me) and not expect that I should "mind" them (ie that I don't have to stop and wait and go everywhere the dog wants to go, when its wants to go there). So if it is a matter of a dog who likes to mark everything in sight, I keep walking and don't allow it. Especially people's property such as letter boxes, plants in their front garden etc.