Erny

Am I too much the trainer and not enough of the trialler to say that this is only avoiding the proofing necessary to ensure that 'sit' is solid, 'drop' is solid and 'stand' is solid, and that the dog understands the difference between all three?

I presume you mean that she's flipping her hips to one side? Whilst I really love the 'square' drop for its aesthetics and "ready to go-ness" my attitude is that if a dog is comfortable it is more likely to hold its "stay" position. If it is not a problem for the owner, then I've not made it a problem for the dog. If you really want the "square" drop though, you will probably need to do a bit of back-tracking in your training, rewarding only for the "square" pose and, depending on your training method, offering a correction when she moves her muscles as if to flip the hip. I don't trial so I'm not sure what the "requirements" are. But I thought a flipped hip was ok, as was a front paw folded under (which some dogs are prone to do and to me is a sign that it is prepared to stop there for a while). ETA: The only problem with 'flipping the hip' to a drop is that it can get in the way when doing sequences of (eg) stand; drop; stand; sit; etc. But as you've said your girl only gives a 'flipped hip' when preparing for 'stay' work, I don't see it as a problem either. And like dogdude, I'm not sure why your instructor identifies it as an issue. Worth asking him/her?

You did it! Now everyone will know the topic has changed and Erny will be happy about the filing ;) ..... You read Bruno's thread! :D

News has it that Mark has received a "ban" penalty. Just so people know. K9 : I have to say I agree with the above. I feel for Mark too though, as from where I sit he likes to really get out there and try to help people. We all do, I know that and often feel guilty for not seeming to "give info" .... like I'm trying to keep it to myself. But from earlier days (from which I've since 'learnt') I've seen my own information misconstrued and it bothers me that there are others who might do likewise, especially in matters such as fear which can so quickly turn to aggression. Change in a dog's behaviour through modification methods isn't 'text book exact' either, and without close contact and some sort of observational supervision, it can be impossible to accurately modify/adapt techniques and programs to accomodate those changes. Mark - I hope you do venture back here when you can. I know for a fact that I would enjoy a 'banter' with you over training and behaviour mod methods. :D

Go to your first post. Click on "full edit". You'll be able to alter Title and Sub-title then. Then click on "complete edit".

RL01 .... to answer your question, it is the latter - your thread here stays and you start a new one. If you really want this thread deleted, you need to PM the mods and ask them to do so. Or the same, if you simply want to close it (which means it stays, but no-one can add to it anymore .... not even you). Personally, I like old threads to be updated. That way, new readers to the thread get to know the back ground and how far you've come. Saves a lot of repetative suggestions/advice etc. etc. as well. If you were to do this, you would go back to the first post of this thread. Click on "full edit" and this will enable you to add a sub-title - something like "update - refer post # xxx". When you've completed that edit you can then simply go to the bottom of the page and click on "reply" and type away. It will add your new post in at the end of the thread. Your choice of course ..... but I love it when the filing is neat and orderly ;) :D. Good luck - we'll be looking forward to your update, whichever way it comes. :p Erny

That's ok NinaandTed. I'll look out for it. Please send to my email address : [email protected] If anyone has my "bigpond" address (shouldn't be many if any at all, because I mainly advertise the one above), please delete it ..... I am not with Telstra anymore.

I'm hoping it will be after May. Up until then I have commitments to attend to.

And a very good one it is too. As have been everyone's who have sent them through. Thanks for the "good luck" Mark. All I really need is for the Minister to have an open and understanding mind.

In a way this could be a good thing? Seems there are a number of people (myself included) who would have liked to have gone but were unable due to other commitments. I'll look forward to notice of the re-scheduled date - hopefully I can make it then.

Great stories, guys! Don't forget that you can submit your stories to me by email to : [email protected] Individual submissions will weigh more than the stories given in this thread, IMO. Although this thread was designed so that people - whether for or against the Pressure Point Collar (PPCollar) (aka "pinch" or "prong" collar) could enter general discussion about it, stories are still welcome here, if that's what people prefer. ETA: They are not too late. Christmas caused a delay, as did getting some information from some formal sources. Not to mention the extra things that have been identified along the way, adding to an even more "full" main submission than I thought. Your individual submissions go a long way to bolstering the "main" submission, so please keep them coming to the email address above, if you will. I will post back here once the submission is wrapped up and ready to go, so keep writing until then .

Hi IHF - you're on the "list". You did it by phone (message) but at the time didn't leave me a contact number. Have your PM today as well and have responded. ETA: BP .... sorry for the hijack.

And this is an excellent method - "randomisation" ...... use it whenever you DON'T want your dog to cue off something.

Depends on the dog IMO. How do we know that what this dog is presenting in behaviour is for the most part not already "learnt" behaviour? Wouldn't know, unless we got to see the dog.

I understand MarkS .... but much depends on how much the dog is fearful emotionally, and how much might be a learnt behaviour. We don't know this dog and can't know this dog unless we saw it and worked with it. I'm not suggesting it is one or the other (ie emotional or learnt), but there can be a component of one (eg "learnt") which compounds the other (eg "emotional"). Even a person offering food to a dog and the dog receiving it at the wrong time can result in strengthening any component of the 'fear behaviour' that is actually 'learnt'. I do agree with you in general though that the dog who has negative value towards (eg) people needs to learn positive value. I just don't think that the common approach of feeding food (regardless from whom) without understanding the dog and the importance of timing is thought out as much as it might and possibly should be. MarkS : Sure - but of course it depends on the level of the dog's fear as to the distance threshold you work at. So it might merely observe other dogs socialising from a distance without involvement to begin with. The other difference is that the other dogs do not offer food treats to coax the dog in to them. Generally speaking they are also more adept at 'speaking dog' between each other than we are. IMO their timing of responses to each other is far more keen than any of us ever could be. I have worked with fear behaviours that, if I could apply a percentage to them, might present 40% real (ie emotional) fear and 60% "learnt" fear behaviour - the latter having been rewarded by the presentation of food (from strangers) at the wrong time. Once I have stopped the dogs' expectations that they will receive a reward for exhibiting the "learnt" fear behaviour, 60% of the 'fear posturing' quickly disappeared. We were then able to work on the remaining 40% of the dogs' "real" (ie emotional) fear through desensitisation methods combined with food treat rewards from stangers that were more appropriately timed, simply because the owners got to not only hear the explanation but got to observe were coached. This is why it is IMO best for people to get one-on-one help rather than leave it open to interpretation.

Sorry MarkS ..... but this carries with it its own set of problems. Often the timing of giving the dog the treat (not excluding the timing of the dog actually receiving the treat) can reinforce fear behaviour when people don't know what they are looking for. Many times these small little things are not understood and not thought of. It's because of these nuances and also because fear behaviour, handled incorrectly, can easily turn to aggression, that it is best to arrange for a trainer/behaviourist to consult with owner and dog. Apart from being able to assess by observation, the trainer/behaviourist can also explain AND demonstrate.

Hi LL Have made contact with one person ..... who directed me to another back here. Plenty of OS reports available on the benefits of the PPCollar ("prong collar") ...... and these were also referred to and submitted when the 'ban' was proposed. Government docs acknowledge them, but if one can read tone into the written word, it seemed they were brushed off just because they were from overseas. Mind you, much has been shrugged off regardless of origin. There isn't really much (if any) in the way of research papers here in Oz ........ but if it IS Oz research they would take more notice of, I don't understand their logic - what's the point in spending a fortune duplicating what has already been done overseas? Implication is that the opinions of Victorians will hold most weight - presumably because they are the voters(?). I think opinions from interstate will help bolster the opinions of the Victorians, but the further away we get (ie overseas) the less notice they seem to take. All the same ..... included in the submission are some reports/opinions and research docs from overseas ....... again.

Taking a break from the work I've been doing on the submission - I have so much information swimming around in my head I'm getting giddy! Figure I need to go back to it with a clearer mind in a day or so. So, while I'm taking a break from that I've turned my attentions to the petition wording. I presented this to my MP for opinion - he felt that what I had originally drafted was too complicated in that it might not be clear to the average person what the petition was actually for. (Refer post #146 for original wording) I think he made a good point. I originally worded the petition with the Government in mind, not the people signing. My MP was getting an opinion from the Minister (?) but it has been quite a number of weeks and I haven't heard back apart from a couple of emails from him to say he hadn't forgotten. Great that he's kept in touch, but time is going by and I really need to get the petition "out there" as it needs time in itself to generate interest and response. So I re-drafted the wording of the petition and am resorting to you guys again for your opinion on it. Does what I've written seem patently clear to you what the petition is seeking? To the Legislative Assembly of Victoria The Petition of the Residents of Victoria draws to the attention of the House That we recognise use of the "Pressure Point Collar" (also known and referred to as the "pinch" or "prong" collar) [the Collar] can be and is beneficial to certain dogs and dog behaviour in terms of the animal's welfare and humanity during training; exercise; and/or behaviour modification, in comparison to the other more freely available training/managements tools. The petitioners therefore request that the Legislative Assembly of Victoria regulate for permitted use of the Collar under supervision and/or instruction of a qualified dog trainer. Look forward to your responses. Thanks in advance. ETA: I don't think the way I've put the word "humanity" in fits very well, but I did want to use the word "humane" in there somehow, without making the whole thing too wordy. Any suggestions? My brain is strained.

From non-"professional" owners ..... about 10 or so. Professional trainers ..... still rolling in. Vets ..... a few. Not really many when you consider how many out there recognise the benefits of the PPCollar to both the welfare of dogs' and to the dog owners. Still inviting for more. Deadline is extended to end February given delays caused by Christmas and the fact that I keep blowing out my work load because of the addition of new ideas . I'm continuing to work on the submission (almost caught up with the new information sourced and have been adding that in) and if time doesn't run out on me too much today, I want to re-visit the wording of the Petition and get that out to the "blog space' I've created, so people can download, sign and post back (snail mail style). Once I've got that going (and hopefully it will generate under its own steam to a degree, so I can keep moving on things) I want to concentrate on putting the DVD together. Beyond that, it is simply much waiting for everyone out there to provide the things required. Oh - and no takers yet on organising an appointment with their MP (to which I'm willing to be a spokesperson if preferred), provided travelling distance is within reason.

From the "other" thread :- Rachelle - with most if not all submissions I've acknowledged receipt of them. Save for the last week - I've been so caught up in trying to focus to straighten out, sort through and bear relevance to info from Govt docs (and integrate it to the submission) that the last couple of submissions I hadn't acknowledged straight away. Yours wasn't one of them anyway. Can you tell me when you sent it? If by any chance you have my old "bigpond" email address ..... would you please delete it as I no longer have it functioning. Please send to [email protected]

Don't think so Rachelle ..... I'm going to reply off the 'other' thread - this one is the one I will be using to print out and include as part of the submission to government and I'd like to keep it to discussions pertaining to the PPCollar rather than anecdotal stuff.

You will be able to purchase ticket/s for any of the days you want to go if you can't make all 3 days. Each day will be different and you will learn, but they will "tie in" with each other. To get the maximum out of the event, a ticket for all 3 days will be the best. The 3 day ticket is discounted too.

I have it printed Cosmolo ..... to read through. Sorry - I have been sending myself crazy trying to add references, citations, hyperlinks and cross-referencing into the 20 page "main" submission. Have spent hours on it today and no where near finishing. PS - just read your submission through properly now. Very good submission - thank you .

No - not too late Akita Owner. Thanks. Nice story.

Don't quote me on it and don't get excited prematurely - perhaps it's somewhere else he's going, but I thought he was going somewhere. Check in this forum. Could be on Page 1 or 2 or 3 or 4 now ..... but I thought there was a thread for a workshop in another State. Perhaps it was Perth.