Erny

Thanks Isiss. See you then .

snort ...... yeah, right. Sure. Like derrrrr. Thanks Jeff.

I am roving around in "surveillance" mode at the moment BP. Looking for spots where I have to .

I am busy reading and catching up and responding . Thank you everyone (except Jeff ) for your thoughts - I am glad to say that I'm back and that it wasn't a very long break. We didn't know what was going to happen or how long it would take to fix the problem, hence the reason for the message here on DOL. SnT Actually, yes ...... going wireless and also networking. What a nightmare!!!! Not there yet either, but getting closer to having it all up and running. So there could be a hiccup or two yet to come - who knows???? I've had some great help from a couple of friends, hence I'm able to talk to you guys again tonight. Can't believe it's only been a day since I've been on DOL. Feels like an age! So Jeff ....... you thought you were free to throw parties and raise merry hell???? ..... uh uuhh. No sirrrreeeee. I'm here lookin' after things again.

Pax - thanks ..... but where is the YouTube bit of the show where this "new" trainer presents the Pressure Point Collar (PPC)? Is that what you were (kindly) providing? ETA: I am so not good at finding myself around these 'news' sites

No worries BP. Thanks for trying. PW? Can you copy it over to disc for me?

The "Pressure Point Collar" (PPC) aka pinch or prong collar LOOKS bad. If you want to read the writings of people who are positive only type trainers (I know of no balanced trainer who thinks ill of the PPC), they can and have easily portrayed the PPCollar to people as being some sort of collar that is designed to STICK INTO the dog's neck. They use words of very negative tone and that draws on the imaginations of people to suit how they wish them to think of this tools. IMO nothing could be further from the truth and I wonder at the condoning of a head-collar and negativity towards the PPCollar. I think anyone might wonder, if they cared to really find out how it works and what great responses are received from the dog when used. BUT, to discuss the PPCollar and explain in detail so that the general public could overcome not only how it LOOKS but also the misleading information that has fortified their images of horror and cruelty, would take up a whole show in its entirety. So perhaps that's why CM didn't raise that in his show?

Don't forget that these signals are used by a dog to signal its deference to a higher ranking animal. They can also be those signs of initial confusion I spoke of earlier in my previous post. And a shift in heirarchy is generally what we seek to achieve when behaviour issues indicate an 'out of balance' situation between dog and human. As Mark has explained above, the stress the dog is experiencing during the shift in heirarchy process is short-lived when behaviour modification is dealt with appropriately and clearly. Once the dog learns its new place and recognises the human's ability to govern fairly and capably, dogs are generally happy to accept that they no longer carry the grave responsibility we imposed on them beforehand. If a dog would turn different colours to indicate its stress levels, you might be surprised to see how many stressed animals there are and how great their stress, when to the naked eye they appear to simply be happy, go-lucky, boundy - albeit "naughty" dogs. In my experience, once the dog understands its new position (and the process, well executed, is normally swift) and what is expected of him/her, the overt signals you refer to do not continue.

Thanks Mark. Expressed in your post far more clearly than I in mine.

There are times when I have worked with owners and their 'dominant' (higher heirarchy status believing - for those who don't appreciate the word 'dominant' :D) dog/s and I too will see the dog obviously submitting (and not necessarily because I've even layed a finger on them). I too have said "this is good" to the owners - only because I know the owners have 'babied' their dog and recognise the emotions the owners feel (which is often why the dog/s have become 'dominant' in the first place). I say these words as a form of encouragement to people who might, the instant they see it, begin to become emotionally alarmed that all is not well. I tend to find that the overt submission the dog/s exhibit becomes less overt as they come to understand their new (lower) position in the pack and as they come to understand the change of rules the owners have applied/are asserting. Sometimes, I think the submission I might see does stem not only as the result of the change of rules being recognised, but also because of some confusion at the fact that there is change. I tend to find that some positive reinforcement for the improved behaviour increases the dog's confidence that its responses to the changes are correct, and posturing improves. As I said, I have said "this is good" to owners before - simply so they don't screech "OMG !!!!" at their dog's submissive appearance, and fall to the ground hugging and kissing them and telling them they are sorry and reverting to their (up until then) ways of doing everything the dog wants when the dog wants it. Perhaps this is what CM is doing as well?

I know Pax :D. Sorry - I have a fair amount of "PPCollar" responses as well as quite a few responses to the Vic Seminar/Workshop Pro-K9 and K9 Force will be running in (most likely) May this year. I don't want to delete this willy nilly, in case the information is something I yet haven't transferred elsewhere, should I need to keep it. Therefore it's going to take me a while to go through each PM piecemeal and I haven't had a chance, these last few days. Got your email though - and have responded. Thanks. :D

Thank you PW. I'll wait for a bit to see how BP goes. If BP can't get the recording over to disc, then yes, I'd very much appreciate a copy of it from you. :D Please hold on to that recording just in case. :D Cheers! Erny

Kavik - IMO that takes submission to the more full end of the spectrum. For example, I might be submissive to my Dad - probably because I respect him and his leadership so much. I tend to defer to him (unless my stubborn horns really come out !! ) That doesn't mean I'm unhappy or look unhappy when I am with him, working or otherwise. That's the way I interpret it, anyway.

Yeah, that was another one of his names here.

Does seem somewhat young (I can only presume your new puppy is around the 8 weeks old mark?) but .... For leadership - set boundaries and guidelines and be consistent in your methods to train your pup to these things. Think of things being on your terms rather than that of the pup's. If you catch pup humping (or 'about' to hump - the earlier you catch the better) try distracting by making a noise such as clapping hands or rapping a couple of saucepan lids. When pup distracts away, do a little recall of sorts and when pup comes over, reward. When pup humps you, do your best to withhold any action that might be deemed by your pup to be "attention" from you. Initially, try simply walking into your pup - this might upset his balance and leave him no choice other than to cease the activity. Walking into his space rather than delivering up to his is a message that should stand him in good stead for 'respect' later on. You could try the firm "No" (coupled with the stern look of disapproval on your face) and physically (firmly but not roughly) stop the behaviour, but you do need to be watchful in case your pup perceives this as having won your attention. Try to keep things that pup 'humps' out of the way when you are in no position to supervise. Lots of socialisation for pup's good development and to keep him mentally stimulated. Introduce a little basic (gentle) training in obedience too. I would suggest your pup is 'exploring' at this stage. Exploration can lead to habits, so do what you can to divert him away from the habits you would prefer he didn't engage in.

Why would you not want that? If you're thinking about the PP dog, remember that the "calm, submissive" state spoken of is to the "leader". A PP dog should be able to exhibit "calm, submission". I would worry if a PP Dog did not sport that quality of attitude to its owner as IMO it would indicate that the owner did not have the respect/control necessary to make the PP a safe dog.

if I do a DOL search will that bring up the posts? (no idea what 'non-ohmic' is/means ) Lab and Poodle or Labs + Poodle or some other name I can't remember. A search should bring up topics under the first name, at least.

Thanks BP. But please don't PM me ..... it won't go through. Email please .

Thanks NC. Admittedly I only scan-read the articles, but I can't see anywhere in them that I would regard as "sniping" or "cracking". Perhaps I need to read them more carefully. Or perhaps (because I now suspect I am familiar with the Letter writer's views and manner of writing), it was an over-reaction and unneccessarily emotive response? It should not go to follow that I agree or disagree with MT's training methods. I really haven't had a chance to read more than one or two of his articles.

Thanks Janba. I don't have that issue. Perhaps DogsVic will send it out to me? But in the meantime, I've been wracking my brains ....... and I've JUST remembered why the name of the writer of that letter rings a bell!!!! An (ex?) DOL Member. (Assuming it is the Denis Cody that I'm thinking of.) "non-ohmic" or words to such effect might jog a further memory or two.

Thanks Mel. Perhaps if I telephone DogsVic they'll know more readily (perhaps by a date in Denis' letter?) what specific article "tipped him over the edge".

Thanks WP. Did a quick re-check of her web-site but haven't come up with what I'm after as yet.

I want to know what "crack" MT made "at a particular type of training device" and what "snipe" he made at "the profit motive of a group of professionals". MT's article in December's issue only talks about lead length. No "snipes" or "cracks" made to or at anyone or about any training devices, as far as I could see. So I presume it must be in one of his articles prior to December. Thing is, I don't know how long DogsVic take to publish people's letters. I also don't know how long Denis took before he prepared and finalised his letter.

Thanks WP. But I particularly want the bit about her presentation to the public of the "Pressure Point Collar" (PPC) (aka pinch or prong collar).

BP ...... I think I reeeeeaaally need to see a copy of that. Any chance of getting a copy from you? Please email me (PM Box is full and need to be selective about which PMs I keep ..... haven't got the time to go through all that just now) to let me know. Would be most appreciated and happy to fix up for disc cost and postage etc. Cheers! Erny