Erny

You've had him what ..... 8 weeks at the most? We don't know any of your previous training attempts nor how consistent you've been with them from 'day dot'. Some dogs are more difficult than others - but you do need to be patient. You do need to keep your eye on him. You do need to keep him where you can do that. You could begin to crate train him so that you can use the crate to help in toilet training. I'd say he's learnt from you that he shouldn't soil inside the house when you are there, but inconsistencies (inadvertent, most likely) have taught him it's ok to soil in the house when you are not there to see. If he's asking to go outside to toilet when he's in your proximity, then I say you're part way there. You just need to be more patient and vigilant to make him so he's more comfortable going outside than inside at all. Are you picking him up to take him outside, or guiding him out but having him walk on his own four feet? The latter is best. Helps the dog learn to negotiate his own way out.

In my younger years, the dogs were 'known' as "Red Heelers" (or "Blue Heelers", as the case may be). I was given to understand there were general behaviour/temperament differences between the two as well. Would those who are in more contact with them (and therefore more 'knowing' of them) than I agree with this? Generally speaking, that is.

Thanks, and I'm glad you think so, Grumbles. But I will point out that these shots were not 'planned' and are not 'modelled' for the purpose. For example, I could suggest the handler wasn't in the best of positions (relative to the puppy) to accomplish the "sit" with the compulsion method and I trust that people will not assume the idea that it is about the left hand pushing down on the pup's butt that does it. You can't really tell from the pictures how much firmness/guidance was used with the right hand compared with the left hand. And not all pups are as well mannered as this one was. There are those who might mouth; wriggle; etc. etc. and some people do well to have some tuition dedicated to them and their puppy to learn how best to manage and achieve. Common sense care needs to be taken.

How come?

Luring (which is the training method described by Chloebear above) is good for introducing the concept of the new exercise to our dogs. The biggest problem with luring is that it is the PEOPLE who don't move on and away from it. So the food eventually becomes a bribe ..... and before you know it, your dog won't do anything for you UNLESS you have food to wave under their nose. When I use the luring method, I aim to use it no more than 5 times for any one exercise that I am teaching. I am conscious to wean off from that and change it to "positive reward" (where the reward is NOT on offer before the exercise, but is given AFTER compliance has been offered). There is also the "compulsion" method. Here's an example of a "sit" being conducted using the "compulsion" method. 1. 2. 3. 4. 5. If you use the "compulsion method" you do need to know how to do it properly. The hand on the pup's butt should only be there to guide the pup's butt to the ground, not to apply strong force, as to do so carries the potential of hurting the pup's hips. Also, that same hand must be over the pup's hips .... not further up the dog's back, to avoid hurting the pup's back. The other hand causes an up and backwards action, as if to rock the pup back into position. I will at times use a combination of luring/compulsion. Again - depends on what suits and works best at the time.

It does come down to personal preference to training methods and what works or doesn't. For example, "positive only" trainers might apply (simply put) the "you don't sit, you don't receive reward" (ie Negative Punishment) method. And this might work for some dogs who do care about the reward offered. In the early phase of teaching, I often use the "compulsion" method (which, before people's imaginations run off, is not about having a big wrestling match with your dog ..... it's about gently but firmly placing them in the position required). This is errorless training but also does maintain a consistency in this early teaching period so that they learn (eg) "sit" does mean "sit" .... and nothing else. It also opens up the window of opportunity for your dog to be rewarded for having completed the "sit". Sometimes though, I might use the negative punishment in between times if it just happens that I am not in a position to apply the other. Beyond that .... well, there are different methods for different dogs and much depends on what suits your dog as well as what suits your lifestyle, what you want to achieve from your dog and its training and so on and so forth. In earlier days I did used to have a preferred method - this is commonly known as "avoidance training" and admittedly it does work for many people/dog combo's. But now I admit that I use and apply with more frequency different combination/styles of training, depending on not only dog and dog handler, but also on how the dog is progressing in its training at the time and whether there are hurdles we need to get beyond. I guess this has derived the more and more I am doing private one-on-one lessons as it gives me more opportunity to adapt according to the person and dog I'm working with at the time.

At least you've recognised where your newf's behaviour is springing from, NN. So you've got a little headstart on him . Through this 'time' be very clear on the boundaries and guidelines you've set and be firm about insisting they be observed. He's testing you out and each time you 'give a little' he'll recognise that as a 'softness/weakness' in you. Stand firm and be consistent (but fair). As to how long? I could ask, how long is a piece of string ............................ but certainly through the tenuous period of adolescence where every inch given will give your dog mileage.

Wingus - until you're quite certain as to the cause of your dog's behaviour (ie whether it's excitement, fear or something else) it is really difficult and not such a good idea to give advice on what to do. If the "cause" is mis-diagnosed, any tips given might end up exacerbating the problem, rather than helping with it. One thing I would think about though (as a preliminary/adjunct to working on the cause and modifying the resultant behaviour) is your relationship status from your dog's point of view. Your dog is 7 months old and is entering/has entered the adolecent phase of development. This is where dogs more seriously view their relationships and establish heirarchy status. You really want to make sure that you (and other members of family) are respected as the higher ranking animal. Without that, your dog isn't likely to recognise your right to govern. And the nipping behaviour you describe could become more incessant and serious over time. Maybe your thinking that your dog's behaviour is based in excitement is correct, but I could also guess that might be escalating to your dog's expression of "her being the boss". Mind you - in the absence of seeing your dog and observing her relationship with you, this is just a guess, but is a definate possibility. So, my initial suggestion is to do a stock-take on your leadership/relationship with your dog.

But be aware also of the flip side of the coin, where the greatest and most permanent development of the brain occurs inside the critical period (generally 8-16 weeks of age) and is the best time to expose pup to all manner of worldly things it will come across and need to deal with during its lifetime. Missing out on experiences during this time carries the very real potential of a dog not being able to handle new and novice experiences very well or as balanced as we might like them to. Experiences inside the critical period are permanent and the memories of these experiences will be drawn upon to help the dog appropriately react to stimulus during its life. Strike a balance and utilise common sense.

I have added a link to this thread to the current one on Prong-Collars (submission to change legislation) because the above is essentially what the Labor Government has been guilty of in permitting the passing of the legislation to ban use of the collar here in Victoria. Perhaps our State Labor Government will read it. Hopefully they will fix the mistake - it's never too late to, and if they didn't fully understand it when the legislation was first passed perhaps it is a case of mis-understanding the facts.

Trainer not guilty of cruelty I've only added this link here so that it might be sourced back and read by the "powers that be" in the Victorian State Labor Government who might care to be interested. It's not entirely relevant, because the training tool in question is not the prong-collar, but I think the principals behind the case are the same as that which is being argued here. Oops .... better type out the URL or those reading from a hard copy of this thread won't be able to source it. http://www.dolforums.com.au/index.php?showtopic=119132

Instrumental Conditioning. Basically, this is where every behaviour is reinforced, either positively or negatively. Eg. Dog told to "sit" dog sits, dog receives a reward. Dog told to "sit", dog doesn't sit, dog receives a punishment. Instrumental Conditioning produces fast learning, but the problem is that it is very prone to extinction. In other words, if the regime has been followed but then the reinforcement (positive or negative) doesn't occur, training deteriorates. That is why it is generally used in the early teaching (where only positive rewards are administered) and training phases. As training progresses, the positive reward is generally shifted to an "intermittent" schedule which is less prone to extinction. But a negative is always administered when an undesireable behaviour is exhibited. Classical Conditioning. This relates to learning where feelings and/or involuntary reflexes are concerned. The common example is Pavlov's Dog. Bell rang, dog was fed. Repeated episodes of this simple process occurred. Until classical conditioning occurred (ie Bell rang, dog salivated even in the absence of food.) An example of classical conditioning which happens to most dog-owners is the dog becoming excited when owner brings out the dog's lead. Does this help you?

I found Jane's email address for you .... [email protected] Actually ..... I located two other email addresses .... [email protected] [email protected] Not sure which is the current one. I don't have her phone number. But I'm sure someone here would have that.

Well done Ami .... a daunting task I'm sure, to invest so much against the odds of groups such as PETA. It was a deserved win and many small business trainers will reap the rewards of the landmark you have achieved and created by your win. If you're going to boo hoo a training method or training tool, prepare to stand up and state your case clearly and with good, sound broad reasoning and evidence.

Alison -

Nuetral territory for initial introductions is always a safer option. It removes the possibility of territorial behaviour.

If you are going to go for clickers, IMO the "i-clicker" is better than the standard clicker. It can take an extra second to find the hole and 'click' with the standard clickers. It's easier and faster with the i-clicker, as it really doesn't matter too much how you are holding it .... you can still 'click'.

Hi Alison - by the sounds of it, you've made a great start. There are tonnes of other things you can do - the only limitation is your own imagination. For example - what about people in costumes ..... after all, Christmas is coming up - the there's Easter after that. It might not be such an unlikely occurrence that your pup will come across people dressed as Santa or the Easter bunny. Or any other outfit - eg. Clowns, which your pup might come across at some stage through her lifetime at kids parties etc. We really should have a compilation of ideas "pinned" for puppy people to be able to easily visit. Because the list would be endless, it could always be added to over time. But for the interim, I thought these threads might be of interest to you ... Socialising Pups - Favourite places Socialisation suggestions - places and things

:D and thanks to you both (and all others who have sent in their contributions to the cause). The submission is slowing growing and with every contribution, gets better and better :D.

Yes - she probably does want to be back inside. Not so sure about the loneliness part ..... but she certainly has worked out how she can get YOU to do what SHE wants, WHEN she wants it. Mental AND physical stimulation aside (and it's your call as to whether you are providing enough .... quality and quantity details aren't provided in your post), it is about TRAINING her how you want and expect her to behave inside - regardless of how SHE is feeling at the time. But it is exactly as you've written it. You do all the energetic exercises outside, but once inside, insist on calmness. Use a lead or any other means you need to be able to control her inside excuberance (sp?). Be consistent and persistent. Be calm yourselves. And that you have crate trained her is good as well. No - you're not kidding yourself. In fact NOW is the time to train (if not even earlier) for calmness inside. Leave until later and you could find yourself with a more difficult job to do. ETA: When she was just a little pup, did you play exciting games with her inside? Calm-assertiveness on your part. Be her leader. :D

Fair enough discussion and not a 'first' for DOL (but then, what is? :D) but do you think the "inside -vs- outside" argument is something for a different thread, given this one was started due to the OP's howling dog issue? I wonder how the OP is actually doing and whether he/she has had time to explore the possibility of the actual cause in this particular case? ETA: :D

And in addition ..... Ideally, "meetings" should be short enough so that excitement doesn't get "over the top" - especially (but not necessarily only) when the two dogs don't know each other well. Also - one of the things that create problems is when people have their dogs on lead but they don't move/co-ordinate so that the leads don't become entangled. Once the dogs feel the tension in the lead and find themselves caught together, this can spark off aggression ....... even in the most socialised of dogs. And finally (I think) ..... if you believe it suitable and you allow your dog to meet another whilst on lead, avoid putting tension on the lead yourself (a common error) as this transmits to the dog and can lead to tension building up in him. You can hold the lead shorter if you wish, whatever ..... just make sure it is loose and that you too, are relaxed. Call your dog away (even if it's only been a few seconds - sometimes this is better) if you're not sure. You can always allow him to return to the "meet and greet" after you've given yourself time to think ..... and breathe :p.

Socialisation is never "too late" but is sometimes "not early enough". Also know (in case you already didn't) that "socialisation" is not just about plonking your dog with another/other dog/s (or people or whatever other worldly thing you're socialising your dog to). It is about careful introductions and careful monitoring. The later socialisation occurs, the more gradual and careful the introductions need to be (due to any existing apprehension as a result of lack of early socialisation and also chances of hormones by now haviing an influence on behaviour). And it might not have the "carry-over" effect that early critical period socialisation has. Given that Christmas is only just around the corner, it doesn't leave much time for you to gradually and incrementally introduce your dog to lots of other different unfamiliar dogs, but you might as well make a start. I normally recommend people begin by making introductions between dogs "off territory" and practice "parallel walking" (gradually allowing the distance between the dogs to reduce provided behaviour - watch carefully body language - decrees it to be ok). It's a good exercise in itself because not only does it give each dog time to 'process' the presence of the other dog and become comfortable with it (before they're upon each other), but it also avails the handlers more 'think/observe' processing time. It might be the case that your dog will be ok - but if you take a punt on that, allow introductions too quickly and are wrong, not only do you then realise your dog DOES have issues with other dogs but also you have learnt behaviour to address. The "off-territory parallel walking" is a "better to be safe than sorry" approach. ETA: If you can QUICKLY join a reputable dog training school (do it fast as they will all be looking to break for Christmas in a few weeks) who caters for dog/dog socialisation and have instructors experienced in canine communication, you might find the first introductions easier if you have professional supervision. Your call. :p

Sounds like you did fine. Without being there to know the exact circumstances you were in, the only thing I would have been inclined to have done differently was to simply 'block' the other dog's advances on my own dog - rather than to have to be pulling my own dog out from the other dog each time. Poor show that the owner of the other dog had taken both lead AND collar off. The collar should have remained on - this makes it easier and more efficient to take control of a dog when needs be. Glad your early socialisation efforts have helped Fraser to be a happy, well-balanced temperamented dog. :p As for making it more safe? IMO, you can't guarantee against life. The only thing you can do is work so that your own dog is well-balanced and obedient and sees you as a leader. And be vigilant (as much as you can be) when out on walks. Not that this happened in your situation, but also make sure your dog doesn't go around bends (where you can't see ahead) before you. Otherwise, just apply common sense ..... that's the most you can do. (Apart from never go anywhere.)

Rom's right .... it's not illegal to purchase (through the right channels) or possess a prong-collar. It's only illegal to USE one on an animal - and then only if you're in Victoria.