Erny

I agree with cNr's post. So many times do I read and hear "we never had (or had to worry about) that way back when" but so few people look at how they treated, regarded and interacted with their dogs "way back when" .... or how the dogs (were able to) interacted with the community as a whole, "way back when". If you are going to compare, make sure you compare apples with apples. IMO, the community has lost the plot with how they regard and treat dogs. They more and more need to be reminded that dogs ARE dogs, not people. This is probably why the demand for so many books are there ..... because people, as a result of the changes from yesteryear have not adjusted those life's changes to account for dogs and hence we see so many different canine behaviour problems. Common sense has gone out the window and we're just too busy to be consistent in our training. Yet we seem to think that the dogs are supposed to just work it all out ..... although I'm awed at just how much dogs DO work out, in spite of our failings. We treat them like kids, yet we want them as dogs. How confusing for them! Now ...... think I might go write a book.

You are each trainers in your own right ....... separate ones under the same business will be fine. ETA: After all, you are two individuals expressing your own individual views. Cheers! Erny

Thank you Arby ..... just address it "to whom it may concern" (unless you can think of something better). And just tell it as you see it - how the prong-collar has benefited your dog and dog behaviour. Doesn't have to be fancy or legal words. Just speak as though you were telling someone a story - except keep it factual . That will be fine, Cosmolo . Thanks .

I realise that Ker . I was responding directly to the exerpt of her post from that 'other' forum. Cheers! Erny

Friend from 'other' forum : Ker .... In spite of the posts here to help her, I'm not sure about this part of her own post in that 'other' forum? Not meaning to be antagonistic, but just wanting to know if she does want the suggestions (that we've gone and given anyway ).

Doesn't make change impossible, but it does make it more difficult (or a better word .... "challenging" ). Restrict access. On lead with you or for those moments when this is impossible, where he cannot move to another room. Assuming this dog is not deaf (is that a possibility?) this IS part of training. You don't have to go to classes for it but you do need to understand how it works. Think of his name as a command (a command for attention). Every time you use his name but expect nothing (or allow him to ignore you), he is learning his name doesn't mean anything. Why? Assuming there is no medical issue present (such as deafness or alzheimers, for example), I can't help thinking "leadership/boundaries". But then, that was part of what I suggested above (part, mind you). It happens .... and I can imagine how tiring this all is. All the more so seeing there doesn't seem to be a system in place for dealing with this. I think if you can work a 'plan/regime' out using the points I've made in my earlier post, this in itself will help you.

Could also be a symptom of how the dog was raised and housed. If he was raised, kept and housed in a small pen with little to no chance of soiling away from bedding, eating area etc., it may well be that Chester has simply never learnt any other way. Definately one for a behaviourist visit. Even without seeing the dog I'd be suggesting : Scrub all previously soiled areas of house and verandah with urine-odour neutralising agents. House-training to start from the very beginning. Right from scratch. With even more vigilance because of the fact Chester has no qualms about laying in it (including frequent night visits - won't be able to rely on Chester to let his owner know when he needs to go. Remember - chances are possible that he knows no differently. He probably doesn't know it could be better). STRICT Leadership regime. Verandah "off limits" until house-training is more advanced and even then only permitted under strict supervision. Dog on lead ANY time he is in the house (for better house-training vigilence). Frequent cleaning of yard. Chester needs some help to get out of his habit of "laying in it", and that won't happen so well if he has frequent opportunity to repeat it. If I were the owner I'd probably like to take holidays from work if I could, simply to start putting all these things into place (and manage to work into a routine in doing so) and be able to concentrate on them full time to increase speed of training and chance of success. But all of this without seeing or knowing the dog. Poor dog .... I feel sorry for him. I'm sure he would not be doing this if he had known there is a better way. And poor owner - completely frustrated and at a loss. Good on her for taking this dog in. He needs some serious guidance to teach him that life can be a bit nicer than what he's learnt to make it for himself. Hope she manages.

Rubbing a dog's nose "in it" bears NO correllation by the dog to what it just did. It is a form of punishment that is foreign to it and makes no pairing with that to the fact that it urinated. It is not only bond diminishing but also has a history of leading to aggression later on in life. Some otherwise unexplained aggressive (to the owner/humans) behaviour can be traced back to inappropriate punishment for house-soiling. Your friend should instead be asking "WHY?" Why did his dog urinate right in front of him? Could be a heirarchy issue. Could be that he hadn't let his dog out in time for a toilet. Could be house-training is incomplete. Could be through fear. Could be through inconsistent training. Could be through illness (eg. bladder infection). Either way, your friend should be asking himself what it is that HE hasn't done or perhaps has done incorrectly. He should then berate himself and go about doing what he needs to do to APPROPRIATELY fix the problem he could well have had a hand in creating himself.

What was that in relation to, Reddog21? Teaching the NSW RSPCA how to assess? Designing assessment criteria? Just curious.

Remember that you ARE training ..... try using a long-line (please .... not a retractable lead) to guide him into his recalls if necessary. Make sure the recall she gives you is "worth it" (ie make it fun/great!). Practice these recalls NOT ONLY when he barks at the stump (or whatever else) ..... RANDOMISE - otherwise he might learn that barking at the stump gets you to come out to "play". If it is an occasion where you don't have the long-line on (yet), try a 'startle' effect. Depending on your dog (ie whether it's too much or too little) something like a couple of saucepan lids or some such is good diversion therapy. When he stops due to the 'startle', throw in a recall. Clip the lead on and practice a few more .... generally working in the back yard but ignoring the stump (or whatever other distraction your boy is 'hooked' on).

I suspect it was the former but she's realised you now won't participate unless it is on your terms. I also still suspect there was a bit of a 'power game' going on. Glad she's behaving closer to the 'norm' for you.

Had a pet duck ("Sir Lance A-Luck Van Ducksy") when I was a kid. She layed soft-shelled eggs. We did feed her shell-grit, but she insisted on soft-shells. I figure she knew which was the better end of the stick ..... ..... we used to have to peel the eggs open when we used them for cooking, rather than crack them. But unlike your chook, she was a good Mum. And a great companion. And a dag ......

BBQ Chicken????? Or fried egg???? Which came first?

Oops! Just re-entered this thread after a long absence. My one word post at the very beginning of the thread was simply in direct answer to the OP - it was intended to have been a 'dry' answer, not one with any malice behind it. Yes - I have heard of Craig Murray. But to go further : I don't know him, his methods, his capabilities or his personableness myself. Have heard mixed feedback - but then you get that of many trainers.

Make sure that you have the dog's respect in your leadership. Avoid going over to what she is barking at and making a big deal by "inspecting it". This is quite possibily reinforcing in her mind that there IS something there to have cause for concern. After all, the LEADER went over and had a good look too. Avoid giving inadvertant attention for her behaviour. I'd be inclined to use these 'times' to train for a recall response to replace her current 'fear' response. You can go over later in her absence .... just to make sure the behaviour was 'nothing'. Give her attention for non-reactive behaviour especially in the proximity of the objects towards which she is presently reacting.

Sometimes that's not a bad thing (provided the RIGHT drug is prescribed) especially DURING behaviour modification efforts. It would be really handy if we could "dial up a storm" so we could use them at will to work with dogs who have these issues. That we cannot is what makes it very awkward. Sometimes it is better to guess a storm will occur and prepare for it, rather than to not and be unprepared for it. Steve is well known to DOL and DOL people and sports a very good reputation to helping dogs with issues. I'm not sure what protocol he would chose to adopt in your dog's instance, given the problem, but I am confident that Steve will give you some sound advice. Some dogs are kept safe by being crated ..... I have known of others, though, who have frantically chewed their way through even the toughest of steel mesh in kennels (causing self-damage in the meantime) to escape the fear they harbour during storms. Whether actually crating (ie keeping door shut) your dog is adviseable is going to be a matter for your behaviourist to decide and advise on. But at least your dog has a 'place' that he CAN go to in the event he choses. In the interim of engaging the advice, instruction and supervision of a behaviourist, I would suggest that you do what feasibly can be done to encourage your dog to seek the shelter of his crate at the outset and during times of storms. When you are home with him and have opportunity, know that you should avoid acting as though something is wrong when a storm is imminent/upon you. Use your body language to portray complete relaxation and indifference to it. Ignore your dog's symptoms of fear but encourage any moments of behaviour which leans towards 'confidence' .... and encourage any move he makes towards opting to enter his crate for comfort. Make the crate his source of comfort rather than you. After all, you cannot always be there at times of storm ..... but his crate can be. Also do what you need to do to ensure that YOU are clear leader in your household so that he has the option of deferring to you in these times of high stress. Of course, leadership is prescribed for times between and during storms .... in otherwords - always.

Agree with Arya above. When noise phobias are as severe as what you describe, we often don't have the time that it takes for behaviour modification techniques to work on their own. Meds on their own aren't the answer either. This is where a consult with a Vet/behaviourist is often best - because you then have a person who can construct a behaviour modification program combined with the judicious administration of appropriate drugs. As Arya suggested, some drugs are NOT prescribed for these behaviours because whilst it might dull the dog's responses, it does not dull the senses, so you can have a dog who is frightened but can become even moreso because of the mere fact that he cannot do anything in an attempt to escape that fear. The other problem with some drugs is that they need to be administered xxx hours before the onset of a storm. Not much help if you are at work when a storm rolls in. I'm not big on the quick prescription of drugs, but in these instances they can be a very helpful aid provided they are coupled with a behaviour modification program. There are things available such as DAP (Dog Appeasing Pheramone) collars. Out here, I know we can get the diffusers (which won't be much chop to your dog because they need to be in a room) and we can also get the spray version. I'm not sure that we can get the collars though, although I understand that in time they will be available here in Australia. Regardless, DAP are not always effective and I would doubt any effect would be significant enough given the severity of your dog's fear and your dog's fear responses. There is no easy way to work through these sorts of problems to resolution, but that is not to say it is impossible. But like Arya suggested I would be inclined to seek the services of someone such as Robert Holmes given the severity of the situation described in your OP. In the short meantime, make sure as best as you can that your dog does have opportunity to take comfort in a known safe place, such as a kennel or crate or some such. Some training (between storms) to build up on the sense of safety and comfort these things can provide would be worthwhile.

What about laying an egg on 'cue'. ;)

I can only (safely) give a small amount of advice in the absence of knowing your dog and yourself. And due to this absence of 'knowing', heirarchy status issue is at best only a guess. I'm sure there is heaps of information in the archives here, and there's certainly lots of books to read that might help you. "The Other End of the Leash" by Patricia McConnell is one that I can think of, first up. However, things you can apply/do (if you aren't already) : NILIF program (Nothing In Life Is Free). In otherwords, your dog must do something for YOU first - before you do something (including, for example, a simple 'pat') for your dog. You could go through the "not on bed/couches"; "not in your space"; "you go through doorways/gateways first" etc. etc. As far as how much of what you need to do depends much on what you already do or don't do. All you need to remember is "Everything On Your Terms". So YOU be the one who starts play and choses with which toy/item and decides when play will finish. If she ends up wanting to play "keep off chasey" and won't allow you the ball (valuable resource) simply walk off .... go inside. And always work to finish the game before she really wants it to end. You can always come back out again a bit later for another bout ..... but finish while she still wants more. That's one way of doing it. A 'twist' to that method is having two balls (of the same type, if she's fussy that way). Throw one. She gets it but won't bring/give it back. For the intial stages of this "lesson/game" let her see you have a second ball but you don't throw that one until she drops (or brings back - your choice) and ignores the first ball. When she does, throw the 2nd ball, pick up the first ball. If she's not interested in ball #2 and doesn't relinquish/deliver ball #1, stop the game, as per above.

Oh cNr .... I thought we were doing so well - no need for the . Perhaps you misread the tone in my post? It was just furthering discussion. There's no 'winners' here.

I would suggest she may be trying to instigate a game of "keep off chasey" with you. But I also have an inkling (and that's all it can be with the scant info available) that she may see her heirarchy status as higher than yours. You should 'own' EVERYTHING ..... but let her play with things if you want to. ;)

Sorry - you said that in your OP but I mis-read it. Glad you had a good sleep through and hope this is the beginning of a 'routine'. ;) In case not, though ..... is he drinking a fair amount close before bed time? Something to consider. But see how you go first, as it might not be worth considering at all, with any luck.

First - remove the notion that your dog has cracked it with you. That's a "human notion" (anthropomorphism) not a dog one. Dogs are inclined to live for the moment. Not sulk about not having gone or done things as often as they might like you to. Second - look deeper into what could be causing the problem. For most of this, I need you to do this 'exploration', as I don't know your dog nor her relationship with you. But for starters, and merely as an example of a couple of possibilities :- Could it be that your dog isn't feeling as well as she might? Eg. Sore mouth/teeth? Or something else? Could there be a heirarchy challenge occuring? Eg. HER ball .... not your ball? I'm not suggesting it IS either of the above (although it could be). It could be something else. But you need to look more closely to source out the reason for the behaviour. Rest assured, though, that it would not be because she has cracked the sads with you.

Remember that there are many other pups in many other different households with many other different owners and different relationships between them, than you with yours. Perhaps it is a myth .... but I'm also aware that sometimes what become "myth like" have an underlying reasoning behind them. And perhaps it was a case of inadvertent attention? ;) I don't know either. But sometimes for some people it just makes cleaning up that bit easier when pups are out of the way, even though they might not think to put pup out of the way for the purpose until someone suggests it. Even sometimes the simplest of suggestions can be like a .

. Reading in another thread, a DOLer has had a great amount of success by using lavendar oil. Might be a bit costly if you have a large area to do, and I'm not sure how well a diluted solution of the lavendar would work, but might be worth a try. I had read about the use of lavendar oil as well, but forgot about it until I read the recent thread on it. Are you certain that Patch is really WANTING to go to the toilet? That he is not going when you get there makes me suspect this is not the case. Could be he has learnt that if he 'puts on the right noises' so to speak, he'll get your attention. I've told this story about my own girl (RIP) before, but this will give you an idea of what I mean and how dogs are such great opportunists ...... Kal (my avatar girl) had giardia when I got her - although I didn't know this at the time. It took a good 6 months for a Vet to finally diagnose the cause to her symptoms, which was diarohrea. Kal was such a stickler for NOT having accidents inside that even when desperate she would do her utmost to let her out. Of course, during the course of her illness, this resulted in frequent and regular broken sleep. But naturally, I'd prefer that than especially THOSE sorts of accidents inside the house. So, she'd wake me, I'd let her out, she'd 'go', she'd trot back in (much happier) and trot straight back to her bed, which in those days was in the spare room opposite my own. I'd pop her blanket back on (she looooved that!) and we'd mostly sleep through the rest of the night peacefully. Finally, we won the battle and cleared her of the giardia and so I expected that these early hours toilet visits would be no longer. But no! She still came in to wake me! Thinking that perhaps something was still wrong, or that maybe her stomach had been irritated by the presence of these parasites, I got up as I normally would and headed to let her out. But instead of trotting down the hall with me, she promptly returned to her room and her bed. So, I figured (in my sleep deprived stupor), probably a 'false alarm'. Put her blanket back on and went back to bed, trying to pick up on the pleasant dream I had been having. Didn't think twice about it until it occurred again the next night. And then it 'd on me. Kal was only now waking me because her blanket had slipped off during the night and she wanted it back on!!! Very cute, but very tiring!!! The next night, she came in to wake me but I pretended to remain asleep. I was a bit worried because I'd had 6 months of being used to her genuinely needing the toilet, and I knew I was taking a 'punt'. But I held fast and ignored her. She returned to bed and I slipped back off to sleep. Next morning saw me touring the house to check that my suspicions had been correct and to make sure that there had in fact been no need for her to toilet. After that - no more sleepless nights. Do you think something of this nature might be happening with you and Patch? If you do want to try the 'ignore', remember that you ARE taking a 'punt'. If Patch does toilet inside because the need to toilet was genuine, then there is the possibility that he will have then 'learnt' that habit and I might hesitate to try this for any dog whose toilet training history is not strong. To give yourself the best assurance, make sure that you toilet Patch directly before your bed-time ... no matter how late that is and regardless of whether Patch had already retired to bed before you.