Erny

You are learning from your mistakes though Rachelle - and from them you will become more knowledgeable and experienced in dog behaviour and training than many other people who don't have the issues that you have to deal with. So take heart ................... I do. Take small steps - this will be easier for you and for your dog. I don't train over your way, so unlikely our paths will cross, but look forward to hearing about your progress from time to time. :D

Hi Rachelle - thanks for posting a more complete picture. Yes - it can be really frustrating trying to work through our dogs' issues. I can fully understand your feelings. I feel a private consultation may help you immensley as there are things the trainer/behaviourist can help you with in your general day to day interactions with your dog at home in an aim to heighten and solidify very clearly your leadership status which overall gives you not only the right to govern your dog's behaviour (from your dog's point of view) but also puts your dog in a mental state of mind that is a bit more ready and accepting of your right to protect .... rather than its. This is one of the first areas IMO to investigate and remedy where necessary and possible. The private lesson can then see you working at lower intensity situations outside of the class environment ..... working onwards and upwards (within the limitations of your dog's capabilities) towards increasing the distractions to which she obviously now is aversed. Good luck Rachelle. When you train for behaviour modification (especially serious ones comprising of aggression) never forget where your dog came from; be happy with each and every small improvement and pat yourself on the back for each and every one of them. Be prepared also for set-backs that do occur and to work through them as they come. Try not to be frustrated by them but simply view each of them as a challenge that you will work to overcome. Baby steps ............... ETA: Rachelle - you've been honest about the info on your dog's background. A mistake occurred but you've done the right thing to prevent a repeat of it. You've done the right and responsible thing. Not to mention the effort you are making to train your dog. So no flaming from here.

Sorry Rachelle - my thoughts on the current behaviour issue and problem you have are coming in spits and spurts. So in addition to checking out the question of genetics and early socialisation (above) another question which I think is pertinent is where are you now at compared to where you began when you first started with working on your dog's behaviour?

Rachelle - one other thought. Seeing as how "genetics" are thought to be contributing to the cause of the problematic symptoms your dog is exhibiting (and that definately can be possible), have you consulted with your dog's breeder to discuss this more fully and to check back through your dog's breeding lineage to determine if there were any known problems there? If there is and has been, I'd be very dim on the breeder if these issues were not made known to you before you acquired your pup and even dimmer if they knowingly bred and are continuing to breed these dogs. This won't help your present situation though, but it might help to quantify the suggestion that's been made in relation to the genetics issue and to know what you are really trying to deal with. ETA: What socialisation experiences (including how often and how were they applied) did your pup have in its critical period (8-16 weeks of age) and onwards? These early experiences have a huge impact on dog behaviour and if your dog is genetically wired for the behaviour it is exhibiting at the moment, these early socialisation experiences (or lack of them) can impact on that again.

Yes - I believe Victoria is the only State which has sanctioned a complete ban on their use. Good question. I've never had occasion to be consulted for their use on any dog under 6 months of age (and then the ban came in so diversity of further learning of them kind of came to a halt) so I've not had to consider this to any great length. Generally speaking, I would suggest about 6 months and upwards but I'm not sure of the opinion of others such as K9 Force on this. K9Force?

The prong-collar, as the name suggests, comprises a series of large metal links with "prong" like protusions. These prongs are not designed to dig into the dog's neck (although this is the first impression many get when they hear about and see them). In fact, each prong is bent so that when the 'check' is applied, they squeeze together - sideways rather than inwards - and this causes a pinch to the dog's skin on its neck. One of the advantages over any of the other available collars is that it can be specifically placed to span the area of the windpipe. All other collars (including the ordinary flat collar) cause direct pressure on the dog's windpipe. My own theory on why the prong-collar works relates to the skin having many sensitive pain-receptors. Logical when you think that the body would want to be able to recognise pain quickly, to best avoid serious harm at a deeper level (eg. to muscle; skeleton). Consequently I expect this is why the response to the check made by a prong-collar is more immediate and lasting, yet with far less risk of harm being caused than often is by other means. Naturally, a clear message to the dog makes it easier for it to learn. With the desired response, a window of opportunity appears for handlers to then appropriately praise/reward the dog for the desired behaviour. There is also another spoken theory (not certain that it is scientifically proven) and that is that the prongs (which, by the way, are NOT sharp and many prong-collars sold now-a-days .... in other states come with rubber tips on them) mimic a bitch's teeth around a pup's neck when they are carried or when the subordinate pup is sometimes put in its place by a higher ranking pack member. L & L ... I presume you have seen a picture of a prong? I have written so much on them of late I know I have put up links but can't recall in which threads. I think this one. If you have a dog who is already light on the lead and responsive to commands etc. etc. a prong-collar may not be required. Given how expensive they are I don't advocate to all and sundry that they should have one when they are having no difficulties with the tool they are using and when training is progressing well. In fact, given that the use of the prong-collar is banned in Victoria, I don't advocate them for use in this State at all. : But 'tis such a pity, as time over I see many a dog with one issue or another (some simply sheer excitement) that sees them lunging out to the end of their lead. I see corrections that are applied via alternative training devices to no effect. And I cringe because I imagine a bruised if not damaged neck muscle and perhaps mal-aligned vertibrae as a result. I also see a dog whose sensitivity to these alternative training tools rating a big fat zero and so the dog continues its behaviour. As a result, I see a dog who is precluded from much of the praise and reward it otherwise would deserve. In other issues, I see a dog that is so difficult to handle that the owner becomes frustrated - both at the dog and their own inability to handle the uncontrollable situation. I see an owner who loves their dog dearly, but for whom exercising and training their dog is at the opposite spectrum of "joy". Of course it is NEVER only about the equipment we chose to use .... it's also a good part about the methodology we use in between times which actually plays a large part in training our dogs. But it is (or, for Victoria, would be) great to be able to give owners the ability to control an otherwise uncontrollable dog, so that they may then partake on the journey of learning ... together. Check out K9 Force's website under 'product sales'. Hope this answers your questions L&L. I am brain weary tonight and not even sure how this will read. I expect I'll look at it tomorrow with a fresh mind and perhaps elect to re-phrase what I am endeavouring to explain here (or add to it :D). Erny now hops off soap box and prepares to retire to bed ...... :D

My thoughts exactly, last night .... after I closed down the PC. Equipment type should be chosen to suit the dog - not only for the size factor but also for the response factor. You may well find that with good tuition and training from the get go, you won't feel the need nor inclination to use a head-collar.

Yep - it is somewhat more awkward with the "wiggle-butt" types - especially "wiggle-butt" AND "hairy" ones.

Oh .... and as many people turn their minds to prong-collars only because they have an issue of some sort with their dogs (commonly, but not always, pulling/lunging on the lead), I much prefer the standard "link-apart" release rather than any form of "quick release" mechanism. Only for safety reasons, because I know what a pain the it can be at times to release link from link - especially when the collar is new.

Haven't seen this style of "quick release" before. But my comfort zone rests with Herm Springer. I don't trust much else.

In all the history of ADT as I have known them, there has NEVER been an instance that I know of where either the management or the trainers have turned their backs on dogs with problematic behaviours . The only time this has occurred as far as I'm aware has been where the owner has not followed instruction/the program set - even then "giving up" isn't something that has been done easily. I'm not suggesting that you are one of those cases Rachelle, but I would strongly urge you to contact ADT Management and let them know what has occurred. As you would have been following the direction given to you it is completely out of the ordinary for ADT to "give up" and in the absence of good cause to do so I'd suggest that it's possible you have been informed incorrectly - ADT Management would want to know about that.

Bosko - that's a great outcome in a relatively short period of time. This is all your hard work paying off and you deserve the progress and success you've achieved. Well done! Cheers! Erny

Thanks for your response GayleK. Apologies for the question - just concerned it wasn't being used properly as a training tool. Glad things are in progress for you.

Hi GayleK .... how long have you been training in the check chain? If training is occurring, it shouldn't be that you need to continually correct him. I use a check chain where appropriate (mainly because the use of prong-collars is banned in Victoria), so my design for asking you this is not because I'm trying to attack the proper use of a check chain. Do you take lessons to help you train your dog using the check chain? If not, a few lessons from a good trainer would help you out .... and before long you may find you won't feel the need to use a Sporn harness.

I would prefer a martingale over a head-collar AND over a standard flat collar. Any pressure that is applied (even simply by the action of the dog, if not yours) is spread more evenly around the dog's neck. With a flat collar, the pressure is directly on the dog's throat.

You find all of THAT boring? Perhaps it was just a precaution ..... sounds like a pretty serious situation out there.

I am certain you won't have any regrets. There's only about 8 weeks or so of "this year" left. It's not as far off as it might sound. (Which, conversely, is pretty scarey when you think how close Xmas is! ...... ) I truley keep my fingers crossed for you both. You're dedicated to trying to work through this if you can find a way. Good luck. Keep safe in the meantime. PS - Don't forget to keep us informed ......................................

RL01 ... Well! I bet you've had enough of an adrenalin rush to last you for a while!!! As I was reading it I too was thinking "there is hope". What are your plans?

ET : I've included some links to martingale collars (as well as one about collars in general) just in case you are not familiar with them. Please note that I've provided the links only so you can see some pictures and gain a basic understanding of them. Not because I concur with any of the text (which I haven't taken the time to read properly myself). Nor do I know of the stores in those links that are selling the collars. Martingale dog collars Martingale Dog Collars Dog Collars - Wikipedia

Head-collars in general can place a lot of strain on your dog's neck. Like any style of equipment - it's not the equipment itself but how you use it and you should know how to do this properly .... not only to best be able to train but also so that you can work to avoid having the head collar cause injury. Personally, I find training occurs more quickly using other tools for training .... but in the end it does come down to your own personal choice. However, that choice should be made for what works best for your dog. Whippets have long necks though and given the leverage you have over the head, I worry that injury could be caused even more readily than usual. I am also concerned that your dog is "backing out" of the head-collar. This would indicate that it is probably too large for her and if you wish to persue training/walking her in this, you would be best to select a more suitable size. One thing with the "Halti" brand of head-collar is that the neck strap has the potential to slip as you are working it. This is acknowledged also by the manufacturer of the "Halti" and therefore they recommend that once you have correctly adjusted and fitted the "Halti" to your dog, that you put a stitch through the neck strap to prevent it from slipping. Head collars can hurt the dog's eyes and mouth. Once again, it comes down to not only proper use, but also to being aware of what is occurring whilst your dog is wearing it (ie is it twisting etc.) Even when used properly and when the head-collar is fitted correctly, 'twisting' can occur if you are using it on a dog that *fights* you. If you are showing her, then IMO you would be best to train so that walking can be achieved without the use of the head-collar, seeing as it isn't allowed in the show ring. Also IMO, ANY time you have the lead on a dog you ARE training. Whether people are training for the right thing or not is often another question. Have you tried using a martingale training collar on your Mum's Whippet instead of a head-collar? In my experience, Whippets are considerably sensitive and light and I would not expect that you would require the leverage of a head-collar to achieve control or loose lead walking.

PS .... Does your dog LOVE a game of tug? If he does, could you work him in drive and WHILST in drive, work him in closer to some chains dotted here and there in the vicinity, and still whilst in drive, work him back out again before ending the game? Just a thought - if what you are already doing is progressively working, perhaps stick with it for a while. Again - need to leave this to your own judgement.

S&B - well done for your creativity and the improvement you have achieved as a result. Sometimes it is possible to detect a "backwards step" during the course of behaviour modification. Almost a 'two-steps forward, one-step back' type of progress. If what you are doing is working, don't worry about little backward steps. Just be on the look-out to detect them IF they arise. Just remember to hasten slowly and keep the intensity of the chain very low. Be patient and don't try to progress too far too fast. Be happy for the tiniest of improvements. When you think your dog might be able to cope (I have to leave this up to you to judge) you could perhaps try throwing the ball past and behind you. That way he has to run past you to go get it. This might help to combat any habit of him staying metres away from you. If you always throw the ball when he is sitting that far away, then it can evolve that he's only doing so because he's learnt at that distance he receives his reward. Is it only when the chain is in your hand when you are doing this that he reacts? What about if the chain is simply in a pocket and jingles a bit when you move around?

Kal would do this too. And sometimes throw me a look that I (anthropomorphisising) interpreted to read .... " see ... there's nothing to give .... but I'll placate you just to prove it and make you happy ................ can we NOW go to bed?" :D

Hi S&B - it's ok. I know you meant well and with your heart in the right place (which is usually down in all our ankles when it comes to discussing possible outcomes in situations such as this). I guess I have a bit of an advantage in that RL01 and I have shared a PM or two, so I'm privvy to a bit more insight as to how much he ( :D - sorry for the earlier oops! RL01) has already gone through. Given the opinions (numerous) that RL01 has already paid for and ascertained, I'd support RL01 whatever his decision ends up being. But as he already knows, I'd be a sight more comfortable if I knew Steve K9 Force had seen the dog before any major and irreversible decision is made. I have to say that's only because I don't know the other people that RL01 has engaged in the past; I don't know RL01's dog; and I don't know RL01. But I do know Steve.

I doubt you'll find that to be the case, S&B. As I understand it the OP has consulted with numerous trainers and managed to exhaust a lot of funds and time on her dog. The OP has only said she'd prefer not to see any more trainers up her way .... she didn't say she'd prefer not to see anyone else at all. She has been in contact with K9. He's booked until January, 2008. Give the OP a chance to draw breath and give her matter some thought. ETA: Sorry - just realised the OP already responded to your post, S&B.