Erny

No - we don't know that. The only thing that is known is that you asked for help (original post) and that you were pointed in the right direction, but in spite of that ..... This has NEVER been suggested. Nor is it now.

I'm sure you will be well rewarded with the information and advice you gain from a visit there. As will your pup. Please don't wait for another bite ...... the next one could be a doozie.

The information in your posts are contradictory, Frank .... so I guess we don't really know exactly what's going on and I guess that in part is what is causing a lot of concern here for your pup. The problem is, your pup is not figuring it needs to learn how to understand you - it already thinks it does. He does not understand you are a novice and are making mistakes. He is learning about you and mistakes you make will be held accountable - not discounted.

Why do you think we'll never know the outcome?

In addition to the above, I have seen the early training of dogs on sheep where the dog is stopped from working the sheep when it fails to comply with commands or mis-behaves towards the sheep. Working the sheep in itself would be a HUGE reward to the dog. But it is taught that it can only do so if it complies with commands. Negative Punishment applies in this instance. As well as Positive Reinforcement.

I remembered seeing training vests on the Leerburg web-site, but I have a feeling they aren't quite what you are looking for. Have included a link for you to have a look at anyway. Probably way more expensive than other equally or even more suitable vests you can get out here - even though they might not be specifically for dog training use. Handler & Trainer Vests

What ATM describes is pretty much "shaping" ... in the manner he/she describes though, the reward is that the dog WANTED (for whatever reason) to do it anyway - so reward is self-served. But this is different to what Vicki describes in her instance of her dog/crate story .... I don't think it is a bad example to describe, but simply that it is not an example of the above.

Frank .... welcome back.

Being the humble one that you are, of course ..................... You dag ......

K9: I can let it slide just this once... You cheeky sod .... you were supposed to say "that's ok, it was my fault for not being clear ..." I agree - but I think you're splitting hairs a bit here. The point is, this can only be told on diagnosis after observation and investigation. Which is what I have been saying and which is what you have been saying. So in this, I think we're on the same page. K9 : Yep - he was and did. And he received it. But then posted that the advice given didn't suit him. K9 : True, true. And I for one will endeavour to take this on board.

Oh - sorry, I read your initial post as though the previous posters were being admonished, in some way. Sorry for the misunderstanding. K9 : This is true .... and I hope you're right. In fact, I think everyone here would hope the same. 'tis a tad difficult to offer help to someone who categorically cancels out *seeking professional help* or doing any training, from the get go, though. K9 : that too has been previously expressed in amongst the response posts here. k9 : We all agree - but if Frank has already asserted that he will not *work* with the dog nor engage help to do so, where does one go, given the restrictions imposed by the OP? k9 : That's all that most people have recommended. K9 - you know me well enough to know that I am the last person to want or to agree to *train over the internet* for all the ramifications that can occur as a result. (Not to suggest I'm agreeing to it here either.) And many/most here have posted in the same vein. I'm really unclear here as to why your posts hint that it has been suggested otherwise. We all know that what Frank and his dog needs is some professional qualified guidance. This too has been recommended throughout - but as this has been flatly negated by Frank, it doesn't leave a lot of room to be able to help further. I enjoy your posts - they are mostly upfront, no-nonsense, straight to the point and downright spot on. But I disagree that this thread is like so many others (and I agree, there have been a lot of those "others" where I too have argued against people advising over the net). Frank's pup NEEDS Frank to understand a bit more about what's going on, why, and how to appropriately channel the behaviour away from the undesirable to the desirable. Frank may not even be reading here anymore - but if he is, I truley hope that our continued conversation here encourages him to obtain that help for, with it, I'm sure he will delight in the turned-around behaviour of his pup.

Perhaps I'm on your page, Sidoney? I'm imagining the possible motivational shift from "good dog" to dog becoming accustomed and comfortable in the crate. Motivation shifts from *basic verbal reward* to *place of comfort reward*. From the outset, the comfort the crate provided (blankets?) possibly amplified the verbal reward "good dog" (or vice versa). So the reward the dog actually received from being in the crate was quite possibly bigger than what would appear at first glance.

Sorry .... perhaps it is too late at night for me. I do understand what you say there - it's about "association" .... but it's not really "training" per se, is it. IE Doesn't go to follow that, when we want the action we've paired words to, the dog will then go ahead and do it. Unless there's something in it for him, one way or the other ????? Maybe I've gone off the page ...

TMC ... Are you suggesting this is the case if "there's nothing in it for them"? No foreseen reward of any description? Even no 'self-serving reward' ?

Oh oh ..... It really was a rush trip ........ honest guys. Makes note to self .... stay longer and catch up with Jeff and Winterpaws next time ... I'd like to do that, actually :D.

Ok .... so I'm in suspenders. What did Arya do? But in anticipation of knowing and assuming it is appropriate ....... CONGRATULATIONS ARYA!! Well done!

Well ..... hopefully I will be heading up that way again and we can arrange to meet up. Must admit - it was a very fast visit with a 2.45am start on the day. Boy, was I tired. And that K9 Force, he kept me up chatting until way into the early hours on the following day . Oh ..... and Jeff? The same goes for when you are down this way. I let you off the last time, remember? ;) Rachelle - thanks for posting and for your kind words. Glad you guys enjoyed and learnt so much from K9's course. I'm sure you will have collected a heap of valuable information to take with you wherever you go, whenever and whatever your doggie interactions might comprise of. Well done - you were a really great group and it was good to be surrounded by people so enthusiastic to learn. ;) Thank you also, Steve, for the invitation, opportunity and the hospitality.

Hi Tony - For the most part, the posts in this thread have suggested :- Engage the services of a trainer/behaviourist; Contact the breeder from the point of view of rehoming the dog. The latter having been highly recommended seeing as the OP has made it very clear that he does not propose to entertain the idea of training the dog or engaging any professional advice regarding its behaviour (or what they need to do to change it). Correct me if I'm wrong, but I do not believe the suggestion has been to contact the breeder to sort out the behaviour issues - more a case of the breeder, knowing of the problems, being able to re-home to a suitable owner (who would be willing to take on some professional help to work through the issues the dog has now developed). Well .... that's the way I've read the posts to mean, anyway. And, like always and ever .... I agree with K9 Force in that training to remedy these sorts of issues should not be expected over the internet. But I think that's what many of the posts here have also been saying. Thus the abovementioned recommendations.

With the crate .... like an earlier poster suggested, it is likely that it became a comfortable/nice place to be. Consequently going there becomes a self-serving reward. Not to mention any additionals from you such as "good dog" or whatever. Try doing the same thing but having your dog go to an area that does not provide these "self-rewards" and I'd expect you'll find that you'd need more than simply a "good dog" here and there for your dog to volunteer the behaviour.

:D S'ok Rom. 'Cause when I posted, I did so wondering if I was on the right page or not.

RL01 ..... whichever way this goes, know that you are going about things the right way, and sensibly so. Whichever the outcome, support for you is here. Now especially is one of those times I wish I had that magic wand that many people think trainers have ....... Good luck. As per my PM to you, if it were me, I'd go for the second opinion too. Just to be a sure as one can possibly be. But whatever you decide ........................................ :D

As per what Sidoney said ..... the perception of *reward* doesn't always need to be as obvious as a game of tug, or a piece of food. Especially when pack drive is strong - the greatest reward is your acceptance of the dog to your *pack* and your attentions/approval (yep .... "good dog" for going in the crate can do it - especially if the crate did not represent an aversive in the first place). These are the subtleties that sometimes we don't appreciate are working 'behind the scenes'. Dogs are experts at detecting "subtleties".

I wish our Country was as open to inviting dogs on public excersions such as this, as where you are now, Miccar96. Good for you in working through your dog's issues to the extent that you have. Moon .... there are many success stories out there and yes they are similar to issues such as you are presently experiencing. I've worked and managed quite a number. The success level is variable because much depends on the dog's history etc. etc., but in each case where the owners were committed and followed through with the training, there has definately been an improvement that has rendered the matter pleasingly manageable.

Clomicalm is contra-indicated in matters pertaining to aggression. You are right to keep your dog on lead. It is difficult to advise anything over the net but in answer to your question, you might do well to contact Steve at K9 Force. Link is HERE. As far as *success* stories are concerned - much depends on your expectations and interpretation of the word "success". You may not gain a dog who wants to go play with other doggies, but often improvement in behaviour to a manageable level is attainable. Much depends on the dog's history and this is something you will need to provide to a behaviourist, assuming you are looking to change from the one whom you are currently with.

LOL .... Hell yeah!!! That would represent quite a few lunches, LL.