Erny

You wouldn't want to know what "small fortune" some/many behaviourists have forked out simply to have all the knowledge to help people in a myriad of ways with their various problematic dog behaviours. I promise you ...... generally speaking you are only paying a minute amount compared to the expense behaviourists have borne not only in the courses they have done but also unpaid time, as well as travel (often interstate) and continued seminar costs etc. etc. etc. I know that doesn't make it any easier for you though. In that I can sympathise and empathise. Good luck ................ I hope that everything works well for you and that your trainer/behaviourist is able to source out the cause of your dog's barking and designs a program for you to follow in order to reduce and eventually resolve the problem. Cheers! Erny

I think most of us see it that way, which is why we keep trying. Of course (and fortunately) there are many more who are not idiots (quite the opposite) and these people continue to inspire me. They're the ones for whom it will always remain worthwhile. Thanks again Pinnacle. While I am waiting for responses to the documented information I am seeking, I mostly need submissions from people (refer post #1). These can simply be stories of their own experiences before use of the prong and after use of the prong .... or more documentary, if they prefer. This is the part that is still too thin on the ground. If anyone is able to generate these via their own groups (eg training groups) who may have and/or recognise beneficial interest in being permitted use of the prong, that would be good and welcome as well. ETA: Of course, for those who are in Victoria where the prong collar is banned, the stories will be from "prior ban" days. :wink: The other States have no such restrictions.

Thank you Pinnacle. Yes - there are a great many idiots and unfortunately they'll always be there. The problem with bans is that it only removes from the sensible law abiding people ....... the ones who could most appropriately use the banned item in the first place.

Hi Pinnacle. To answer, I've given your comments consideration my response to which are in bulleted form below ... As you've acknowledged, the submission seeks a change from "ban" to "restricted use" which will (if our aims are met) give docterine for use under the supervision and by instruction of a dog trainer. As is already the case, the prong may only legally be imported by those with special licence/permit to do so. It is not something that is likely to be hung in pet shops with scant labels on "how to use". The prong collar is a comparitively more expensive piece of equipment than those such as the check chain; head-collar; harness; etc. I think this is in part why prong collars have never been - even when legal here in Victoria - hung in supply at the average general pet store. The majority of people whom I know of who have used them have all sourced them through their general knowledge of dogs and dog training. In otherwords, they've had some contact with dog trainers and/or dog training. A far cry from many who pick up check chains and head-collars from supermarkets and your general average pet shop and trot off blissfully ignorant to the damage that can be caused by their mis-use. Personally, I'd like to see some sort of "restricted use" for those too, although I recognise some impracticalities in that. You know, years ago prior to me becoming a trainer and when there was no ban on prong collars, I never even saw one, least of all by anyone of the "Joe Average Public" whom I don't think even knew they existed either. I didn't know that they existed nor what they were about until I became involved in training. I think this lead to the ease with which organisations such as the RSPCA (who seemed to be the most public advocator for the push to ban) to gain public support and to have the legislation passed. It was easy to snap a picture of the prong collar and publish it in the newspaper. Clarity of the picture was not there and they look awful - especially to the uninitiated, the unknowing. The first think people think are of the "spikes" digging in (and piercing?) the dog's neck. (Of course, headlines such as "equipment of torture" didn't help but to confirm the uneducated opinions people in general made of them.) Although you and I know that this is far from the truth of the effect they have on the dog, I doubt the Joe Public would randomly chose to purchase one - if not for the matter of price; if not for the matter of them not being so freely available; but then of their own perception of it - albeit wrapped in ignorance. Banning does not and hasn't stopped people obtaining them. If they've wanted to obtain them and use them illegally, they have, as they always will. What we aim here is to re-deliver the right to law abiding people, to people who understand the prong and who see the many benefits for the dogs and the people in the right circumstances, to use the prong collar. It is not a "free rein" for use. Hope the above serve to answer to your query/concern.

Aaah .... I see where you were coming from. No - this is an application for copy documents/reports that were submitted to government by those who sought to ban the prong.

Don't know if either you have misunderstood, or if I misunderstand you, Myszka . How can I contact the people if I don't first know who they are?

Thanks guys. Well, it seems we're thinking on the same lines so with the consensus of opinion, that's what I will do. Will contact DPI tomorrow. Cheers! Erny

Yes, that's what I was initially thinking. It's a bit "crystal ball" really ..... maybe get the docs with people's individual names deleted and re-approach DPI if a name is needed? Anyone else have any thoughts on this? I plan to telephone DPI tomorrow and let them know the answer.

I have received a letter from the DPI acknowledging receipt of my application for info pursuant to FOI. It says : "Some of the relevant document may contain personal information (for example, name, address) of other people. In order to process your request, I would need to consult each person to determine if disclosure of their personal information is unreasonable. To avoid any unnecessary delays in having to consult with all of these poeple, could you please advise if you agree to have the personal information deleted from the documents, I would appreciate your advice at your earliest convenience." I would expect that the fee for time which the DPI will charge for, will increase if they have had to consult with each person, so my knee-jerk reaction is to say "no" .... I don't mind if this info is deleted (which saves them having to contact each person). But does anyone foresee any reason why knowing a specific name (within a group .... eg. RSPCA; Animal Welfare; etc) would be of important value?

Oops! I see Rom has helped out too ..... sorry Rom. You guys were busy at the same time as I. :cool: Appreciate the really fast help !!!!

Thanks Jeff ........................... For some reason I'm not real clever in finding the sites I need the most. :cool: No - the link you supplied was not the same as the one I found (the one I found had absolutely no contact info or invitation). I have sent an email to Mr. Sprenger. Cheers! Erny ETA: Thanks for the above post too, Jeff. It came in as I was posting this to you.

I'm trying to contact Herm Sprenger (Germany) but only seem to be able to find places that sell his wares .... There was one link to what seemed like it might have been a direct web-site, but it only gave details of some of the equipment he manufactures - no contact information. I contacted one of the stores that stocks and sell his products asking them if they have a link - but they said they didn't. Anyone else know or can find a link?

Don't stress about it all too much, L&L. Have her on a lead and flat collar. Most of puppy school is (or should be) about socialisation - to other pups, people, loud noises, different surfaces, etc. etc. etc. A little bit about how to start some very basic obedience. And some about the usual puppy issues you are likely to experience (if you haven't already) such as destructive chewing; mouthing; toilet training etc. Take some food treats and also your pup's favourite toy. Depending on what you are doing, you may not need them, but at least you have them if you do. Enjoy the experience and your time at puppy school. It can be a big adventure for both puppy AND handler :cool:. Your trainer should be able to show you "how" and answer the "why" when he/she sees you and your puppy. Have fun!!!!

Thank you . I sent off the application for FOI to the DPI a week ago. I have to wait 45 days for a response. In this respect, I'll be back here to let everyone know the result. In the meantime, I'm still open (and needing) written stories/submissions (as per post #1 .... by direct email please) from anyone and everyone who would like to (a) have the current Vic legislation changed to "restricted use" (as opposed to "ban") and (b) from those who are in a position to assist even though in their particular State the legislation doesn't affect.

Aaaahhh .... 8.5 weeks old - a real baby!!!! The tail chasing thing sounds like it could have been being reinforced by receiving attention (and/or the possibility of receiving attention) - evidenced by not occurring when you put her in the laundry. Just be aware throughout for what behaviours are possibly being inadvertently reinforced. Make sure to reinforce behaviours you want (thinking ahead of times to when your pup will be an adult), not those that are not desirable or not going to be desirable when she is older. Putting her in the laundry for sleeps here and there is good in that it is teaching her it's ok to be by herself. Of course, you want to return to her when she is quiet (see reinforcing desirable behaviour, above). Being such a baby, you don't want to leave her alone for really big lumps of time ..... gradually build up to that. Crate training is something you will probably find very convenient. That way you can keep an eye on what she is up to (eg. just waking up) and take her outside for toileting right then. Toilet training does need some vigilance from you .... and time and dedication. Working up in incremental steps. Taking her outside frequently for this purpose (after play, after sleep, after meals and simply after a while) will help. The more often she toilets outside, the quicker the habit of doing so will develop .... of course it also means you are there to praise her once she's done this, so there is extra reinforcement for the right behaviour. Every time your pup toilets inside, she is learning to do so. I have to nick away right now, but if you do a search in the "Training" Forum (and this Forum too, I suspect) you'll find an absolute gold mine of information and advice on toilet training, as well as be able to read on the troubles others have had.

And of course it goes without saying that she needs daily physical exercise too. When do you walk her; for how long and how old is she?

If walking the dog is a problem (ie doesn't respond reliably to whichever equipment choice) ..... have you thought about a combo with e-collar training? ETA: That way the handler will be relying on low stim to direct preferred behaviour, rather than on the more restraining type equipment itself.

Although I wouldn't say I've used "TTouch" with any degree of professionalism, TTouch is 'deeper' than a simple stroke or pat and tends to focus on nerve rich areas that trigger relaxation. I used to use the TTouch method of firmly but gently pulling down along Kal's ear flaps (in the way described by the book) to calm her in times of high nervousness (eg. at the Vets). It helped anywhere from a reasonable to good degree. I've used other 'spots' and massage methods as described in the book (as best as I was able to interpret them) to help calm a few of other dogs I've worked with here and there.

Hey Kelpie-i. Is this workshop still happening?

Yes - this was one of the first things that endeared me to Steve when I first met him. He bears no airs and graces and has time for everyone.

Edit

As soon as I read your post I wondered this as well. I'd say you've found your culprit. Friction/abrasions don't have to come with blood. Harnesses are not all that "positive" as far as equipment is concerned, as some people like to think - although it could also be a case of it not fitting as well as it should.

PeppersMum .... not to take away from PF's post, which as usual was a good one, given that your dog has 'learnt' the behaviour she is currently exhibiting you need to be able to prevent it in those times when you are unable to supervise, guide and insist on the limitations and boundaries you set. Crate training your dog would be very handy (for more than just this reason). If your dog sleeps in your room you can then crate her through the night and this will prevent her from jumping up on your bed when you are (or are trying to get some) sleep. Throughout the day leave the door to the bedroom closed when you can't supervise and train for the new behaviour you want. Poodlefan : I completely agree. Sounds to me like your little girl doesn't respect you. A trainer/behaviourist will be able to go through and explain and demonstrate how to be pack leader to your dog and doing this will earn the respect of your dog.

Well - you've just identified that your dog is not running from the check chain, so that's not the culprit. I still wonder if she is really running away out of some sort of fear, or whether her behaviour is some part of her excited ritual. Hard to tell without seeing her. If it is NOT fear, then I'd be inclined to pick up the lead as if going for a walk and if she runs away, put the lead away and don't go. Repeat until she realises that running away is not a part of the repertoire which results in a walk. When she doesn't run away, then put the lead and collar on and go for a walk. If it IS fear, then you need to desensitise her to it. Have her near you and under control and pick up the (spare) lead and collar and treat her. Have the lead and collar in your hand when you go to feed her. Next step after you've done that a couple of times (and if no probs) is to put the lead and collar on and feed her. Mind - if it IS fear, be thorough in searching back as to whether there might be a reason for the fear. In particular, whether that reason is an on-going one. Eg. Is the collar dragged over her head and ears and causing discomfort etc.?

Yeah, I would think so. Never did get to ask his age. But did enquire of his marital status . He's a genuinely nice guy with tonnes of compassion, understanding and tolerance of people. And of course, great with the dogs too. I could learn a lot from him!!!