Erny

ARF - now that you've found the triggering culprit (ie one of the BC's), have you/can you now explore what triggers the culprit into this behaviour? Is it possibly an anxiety induced behaviour? Be sure to check this first - before employing the use of a stim collar.

I'm from Victoria, so double check me - but I think what you've "recently heard" is a cross-wired interpretation of NSW law. My understanding is that it is illegal to import them (without a permit), but that restricted use is permitted? Here in Victoria, you need to have the 'ok' from a Vet (as far as I can see, nothing in the legislation dictates that the Vet must grant permission in writing) AND the collar must be used under the supervision of and/or under instruction by a qualified dog trainer. I'm not 100% how this compares with NSW????

Yep. Factor in to how long the dog has been receiving the wrong messages from you (in regards to leadership) and then factor in how long he's been receiving the right messages from you. Eg. 4 years of wrong messages -vs- 3 weeks of right messages. Not a long time for "right" to completely and convincingly win out. On the otherhand: Eg. 2 weeks of wrong messages -vs- 3 weeks of right messages. See the difference? It's really difficult for anyone to put an exact time frame as to how long you leave things as they now are before you endeavour the intro back to your bed. It's really a matter of 'feel'. But if you weight things up by taking into account how long things have been beforehand compared to how long things have been 'turned around', this might give you an idea. It's great that things are beginning to improve for you. Keep up the good work.

RA - Glad you took no offence to my strong post. It was with the best of intentions. I will PM you.

RA - I get the feeling that what YOU are doing (or was advised to do eg. eat first; ignore dog's attempts to initiate contact etc.) was correct, but that perhaps it was not made crystal clear for you on how this can be feasibly done .... or that you 'fudged the edges' (ie didn't FULLY follow through) for your dog. I also see that there's some things you're not doing because it makes YOU feel deprived. I think the first step in modifying your dog's behaviour so that you can more easily enjoy your outside interaction with him is to acknowledge that it is about the DOG, not yourself. By the sounds of it, the reason "things aren't working" is because YOU haven't followed through. And this does not help your dog, who figures you are lumping the responsibility of having to protect and govern onto him. This puts pressure on the dog. It is far kinder to do the things the dog perceives as "leader material" so the dog can become a more relaxed and less anxious animal. I guess it is a question we humans really need to ask ourselves sometimes - how much do we REALLY love our dogs .... or do we use the word "love" to disguise a bit of our own selfishness? I'm towing the hard line here, RA, because I love nothing more than people to be able to interact with their dogs in complete harmony. I'm for the dogs .... so I apologise to you if I seem a bit harsh. However, all said and done, there's not much point seeking help from here or from a behaviourist if you will not follow through consistently for the sake of your dog and his emotional status. If you do seek help again though, I commend you for that .... but be prepared and determined to see it through. Being leader doesn't mean we cannot interact with and love our dogs.

Generally speaking, if there are no issues (or issues have been well resolved), you can introduce the command for getting up on the couch. Introduce one for getting off also. The dog is then getting something he likes, but ONLY on your terms (and you must ensure this is clear to him) and it is this that needs to be adhered to. Quite often, doing it this way doesn't impact negatively, but just watch for any little behaviour hints that might suggest that things are slipping backwards. That will be your indicator as to whether it is making a difference from your dog's perception point of view. I would not commence this, though, until the 'slate has been wiped clean' (ie the dog is clear on and has accepted his place in the pack) and that it has been this way for a good period of time. If there are no issues at all in relation to heirarchy, then I don't see any probs with dogs being on the couch, but I think it's best to have the "on" and "off" switch from the very beginning.

For what period of time did you give things a go before you stopped? What things did you try?

Hhhhmmm .... if my pup doesn't return to me once he's found his victim (ie you) in training, I guess I better be careful that you can't run off and abscond with him! Yes! :D I just found this out from M-J!!!! Fantastic news. Welcome to the team, Tag. I will look forward to being your 'victim' out in the training field. Congrats to Jade and to M-J .... exciting times ahead.

I don't care what you say, LL ................... nothing, nothing, NOTHING will put me off. I also inherited a stubborn streak from my parents, so "determination" is my middle name!!! Not that you're trying to put me off, I know. This pup will be sooooooooooooooooooooooooo different to Kal and although I will at first feel as though it has knocked my socks off with its full on driven behaviours, I say .......... bring it on!!!!!!!! I will take that drive and channel it into something good. A challenge it will be, I'm sure ..... but I'm looking forward to the fun of it all even if the fun is exhausting and demanding. :D You know I'll be talking to you Monday to check for news on the mating. Good luck for this weekend, LL. I'll be thinking of you and wishing you and your 'crew' well, as usual.

Sounds to me as if this is very much a YOU problem and, as is commonly the case, that your Leadership is out of whack. There would also be the element of learnt behaviour and I would guess some relationship in your leash-handling techniques. I hear what you say about money being tight but honestly, it would be so worthwhile if you could get someone out to suss the situation out properly, set up a program for you and SHOW you how to apply it. In the meantime, you could introduce the "TOT" (Triangle of Temptation) program (refer top of Training Forum .... it is pinned there) which will help towards Leadership issues. Trying to train over the nett is frought with difficulties and when there is an element of aggression involved, frought with danger. It is risky (IMO) for trainers to tell you what to do over the nett and even more risky for you to be left to your own interpretation of explanation and application of what you think is meant.

Then have a go. But I think you need to explore the various options (ie showing; field trials; obedience trials etc. etc.) to determine where your passion lies, and focus on that as your priority. ETA: After all, if you don't really know what speciality you want to be active in with your dog, how will you know what lineage and which pup would be the right one for you? Anything you do beyond your chosen 'speciality' would be a bonus (IMO), provided, of course, the training for each additional skill is not in conflict with the training requirements and goals of your main field of interest.

I would expect that if one is into breeding for working attributes, you'd need/want to 'exhibit' your dog's abilities by trialling/competing in the chosen field ............ such as the Retrieving Trials etc. If I was after Retrieving attributes in a dog, that's where I'd head to observe the dog in drive and revealing its skills. I doubt I'd go to a show ring for that.

I'm not a 'showie' either, so I plead my ignorance up front here . But if the dog is to be used for its working lines, is this something that would be tested/examined for in the showring? If not, then I wouldn't understand the point of showing in the showring if the point of it all is for the dog's working attributes. Breed standards set out by the appropriate bodies only need to be read and observed, don't they? I've got a feeling I'm tinkering with pandora's box on this one. No needling intended.

Aaahhh .... this is lovely, Rusky. Your legacy to Old Goldie. She will be looking down on you from up above, with softness in her eyes and heart, for what you now do. ;)

And ARF, many dogs simply can't help themselves other than joining in on a howl. My sister's dog "Monty" NEVER howled. But Kal (not long passed - sleep softly, girl) would howl on my cue. Monty couldn't help but join in. When Kal stopped, he stopped ..... then he'd look around with an expression that almost looked as if he really didn't know what happened, what he did nor why he did it. I believe that joining in on a howl links back to instinct/survival traits. Almost an automatic reflex.

at you, Oonga. Oh, ok then. I'd love to. Provided Sardog and partner say I'm allowed to ;). I'm doing everything they say to. :p

Hi FP! :p You know, I'm usually the type who's practical, level-headed etc. etc. "It ain't until it is" type person. Consequently, I've been trying not to get excited about this pup until (a) it is conceived and (b) it is on the ground and © it has been chosen and it is agreed it is to be mine ................... But I can't help it ...... I'M EXCITED!!!!!!!! Cautiously. Cautiously.

Hey Wolfgirl. ;) Yep .... the time I have to wait until puppy arrives and becomes available will be well spent teaching myself how to load photo's on DOL. Of course, it will also assist if I get to purchase a digital camera first! :p I think that will have to be my current project. ................ THEN I need to save up for a GPS because I'm sick of getting lost and with my involvement in SAR, I expect more travel will be on the horizon than there has been for me in the past. ;) I might also need it to help me find my way out of the bush when we're on SAR field training missions. :p

Oonga - Well ................ it's a bit premature at the moment, as the mating hasn't actually occurred yet!! It's simply a matter of having "ordered" the puppy. Consequenctly, no name. I would like it to be a "boy" puppy. As it will be trained for Search and Rescue work, there won't be any "bouncing" with other dogs (at least not until 'training' is completed) .... I'll be working to "neutralise" rather than "socialise", so the pup/dog learns all the good value stuff comes from me. Sardog and partner will be guiding, showing and following our training progress to ensure we stay on the right track (thanks Sardog ), but I don't think they'd disagree that bringing the pup down and allowing him to see the sights and sounds of other dogs, people etc. etc. would be a good thing. :D

Thanks Myszka and Kelpie-i. I feel like giving everyone a group hug . Your "welcome backs" have been so warm and, ummmm, welcoming. :D I'm hoping the PC lasts. Something is still wrong and I don't trust that it's not going to give up the ghost on me in the not too distant future. Am getting on the phone to the computer people now. I always seem to have problems with computers and plumbing (the house kind, I mean ). Sigh.

Hey Am. Good to see you!

Just my 2 cents worth, but I'm not a fan of employing aversives to act as a bandaid whilst the CAUSE of the problem is not first remedied. If the cause is lack of mental stimulation as you suggest then it seems your dogs have escalated their territorial reflexes as an 'outlet'. Shut off that outlet and you could find behaviour manifesting in other or additional and unacceptable ways. I hear what you say regarding snakes, and I have no idea of the 'lay of the land' you live on, but is there no way of clearing an area to work drive exercises on? If the area is cleared of high grass etc., perhaps you can do a visual check before you take your dogs out there for this workout?

Cosmolo - Yes, I remember those difficult and frustrating times during the scent detection component of your course. They happen to the best of us and I believe they prove to become a stronger learning curve than if we do not encounter and endure them. Can't make the K9 seminars on that weekend. Was going to be working with him when the seminars were originally to be a week later, but unfortunately the change in dates created a 'clash' for me. Congrats on your obedience trial success. Well done.

Thanks Noisy. Good to see/hear from you too. No guarantee on the "wise" posts . I think it all depends on where my brain is at the time. But you're right. Some good learning CAN be done here on DOL.

Thank you Cosmolo and hello to you and SM. Funny how "life's paths" take you down and into areas by way of natural progression and consequences, isn't it? I'm much looking forward to engaging in the training side of things in that field too. It's also fun being involved in S & R from the other side (ie acting as victim/body) as it gives a different/clear perspective of the work the dogs do and how fundamentals such as wind, lay of land etc. etc. have such a big bearing on efficient "finds" for the dog and an understanding how these concepts must all be kept in mind when planning to execute a search. On top of that, SARDA comprises a wonderful group of people who are all very social and supportive of each other. It is a team of people with whom I'm proud and priveleged to share membership.