Erny

I agree that there is a fine line between my definition of "management" tool and "training" tool. Also note that I am not saying that NO learning occurs under the influence of a head collar. But, because "opportunity" is considerably diminished by the leverage control and head collar provides, less "training" occurs (IMO), where all else is equal (ie environmental influences; training session time etc.), compared to other forms of collars. The comparison of "guide, show, place" techniques is a little comparing "apples with oranges" as that technique is used mainly for passive exercises (whilst I was making reference to the dog learning lead etiquette), its purpose being to show the dog the behaviour that will achieve 'good things' from us. I agree that the dog's learning curve is greater when it responds by thinking for itself and of course, marking the desired behaviour (whether that be by way of "clicker" or "verbal marker"). But the "training" process can sometimes begin much faster if the dog's behaviour is "managed" initially. The use of hands on the dog can be compared, I guess, to the control of a head collar to a degree, but I tend to find weaning off from "hands" to "collar" much quicker than say weaning off from "head-collar" to "collar", quite possibly because (a) the weaning off from hands to no-hands can be achieved more incrementally and with more accurate timing than that of a collar and (b) handlers tend to attempt to wean off more quickly than they do with a dog wearing a head collar. I don't agree that "Guide, Show, Place" doesn't teach the dog anything. Used in the early teaching phase is does show the dog what action is required. But it also teaches the dog to be handled by humans and this stands them in good stead for other applications where handling is required. (One Example: manipulation into positions when on the Vet table). In this respect, it is different to the use of a head collar as the head collar does not familiarise the dog to physical handling.

Firstly, I need to clarify the above. Does your dog KNOW automatically WHICH lead he is attached to the instant it is attached, or does this "knowing" occur because of the manner in which each lead is handled by you once it is clipped on? But, even taking what you've said and asked here on face value, IMO, my answer would still be "no". Taking into account that we're discussing "lead etiquette" only here, your dog would be trained to the standard lead, whereas no training occurs when the extender lead is on. I had a feeling that what I said (remembering it is my view only) would need some clarification . My general view is that training more clearly and quickly occurs when the dog has the opportunity to behave differently to what we wish but that our influence in each instance over the dog removes that opportunity. The headcollar places much control in the hands of the owner. The more control, the less opportunity for the dog. Hence, I refer to this tool as one of 'management'. When weaned off (or when a dog is worked in) a different collar style, more opportunity presents itself (ie there is less 'steering' control available to the handler) but with the correct use/technique, the message for the desired behaviour still remains. The dog's choice for behaviour is greater and therefore (IMO) the dog learns (ie "trains") with a much larger definition. My own experience has taught me that (in general) when a dog has been "trained" on a head collar, it has still been necessary to train (almost from the beginning) to a different style of collar. Whereas, when I've worked a dog on a (eg) chain/prong, there can be a more immediate carry-over effect to another type of collar (eg. martingale; flat).

Hi Am Just my small, albeit picky 'correction' by way of input - I don't class "extender" leads as a training tool at all (in fact its principals go against those of our training wishes IE DON'T pull on the lead). And although some training may occur under the influence of a head collar, I view these more as a management tool than a training tool ............ a tool that, with correct use can lead to the dog not requiring it and making it's own decisions to perform to our and society's requirements.

SB - My most sincere condolences to the Ansett family. They gave the finest gift they could give to little Scamp under the circumstances, and gave it selflessly. Although knowing this will not ease the pain of the loss they must feel right now, they will at some time be able to rest their anguish on this cushion of knowledge and feel easier than they do now. RIP Scamp . Look for my girl who spread her wings and flew from me in the not too distant past . She will teach and guide you.

I agree. I've been fostering a rescue puppy. I opted to have a Faecal Puppy Profile done. Has shown up Giardia. Giardia can cause diarrehea; vomiting; straining to eliminate; loss of appetite; weight loss and unexplained lack of weight gain .... amongst other things. Not suggesting it is this. But just an example that a check-up is often worthwhile. (I'd recommend a "Faecal Puppy Profile" be done on any dog/pup - particularly one coming from a dubious background. It confirms the presence of Parvo, even before symptoms apparent. This was the main reason I had it done on this pup, in fact. It also reveals the presence of worms and, as said above, infestation of Giardia.)

You're right JB. I like to explore the downsides as well as the upsides. It makes you more aware of the equipment, its useage and effect. Because of the nature of the links, I find the occasional time when the dog's neck is an "inbetween" size. The only other 'hassle' with the prong is (especially when it is new and the links are not as pliable as they can be) when you're trying to fit it to a wriggly, squirmy, difficult to control dog. Especially ones with lots of coat. And try fitting one on when you have had your working hand damaged from a dog bite or some such. An upside that I don't think has been mentioned is that the prong does not damage the coat as does a check chain or headcollar (which often leaves marks in the fur across the bridge of the nose).

That's fair enough.

Hi W. I 'pulled' that piece out of your quote, I guess only in a poor attempt to highlight the point of my post. I apologise that I'm unable to 'speak' more clearly tonight. Commitments to looking after "foster" pup permitted me 4 hours sleep last night and it's been a full on day work-wise today. Please also note that when I speak of the VCA here, I'm referring to the VCA itself .... not necessarily the member clubs, even though they are bound to the regulations and policies the VCA sets down. If the VCA are encouraging of those who seek to train their APBT ( ), I wonder why they are politicking to make it difficult to do so (assuming that is the case). So sorry, W. My use of your words in your quote was in no way picking on you.

May I start by stating this is not a "troll" post. My intention is not to flame, inflame or ridicule. It is derived from a genuine concern as well as either an accurate observation, or perhaps misplaced observation. Way back when BSL was proposed but legislation not passed. Proposal to legislate against tail docking was also a concern. VCA organised a protest rally at the Treasurey Gardens one weekday afternoon. I was appalled at the BSL legislation and telephoned a representative of the VCA to discuss more in detail, so I could better understand the proposals. The representative I spoke to gave very little time to the subject of BSL. It was all about the woes of not being able to dock tails. I informed him that I was reasonably indifferent to the topic of tail-docking - that I found this to be a personal choice and provided it was done humanely, had not objections to it. Nor did I object if tails weren't docked. I further explained that with this in mind, I really wanted to know that the protest rally, which would require me to take an expensive day off work to attend, would give good representation to our protest against the proposed BSL. Although very apparently more concerned with anti-docking than BSL, the VCA representative assured me the protest was against BSL as well. I took the better part of the whole of the day off work and attended the rally. Compared to the content put forth and denounced in relation to anti-docking laws, a thimble-full was put forth in relation to BSL. I went away from that rally (which progressed to the steps of parliament house) feeling quite despondent, as IMO, there was little to no announcement that would serve to the listening public to inform them of the BSL and how it would affect, nor to make it clear to any parliamentarians who MIGHT have chosen to listen, our views and why we had them. As a result, and given the VCA rules prohibiting PB types from training, I can't help feeling that the VCA is in favour of BSL ...... or is at least indifferent enough to it NOT to fight it more openly. Particularly given that there are no laws to suggest that a restricted breed is not permitted and yet they deny that right based on breed. A very "BSL" type stance to take, IMO. As I said. This is not intended to inflame VCA members and supporters. It is not intended to defame the VCA. It is merely an observation that is my own and I freely admit that perhaps my thoughts are mis-guided................. but are they?

I didn't get to those posts (re: no more OP) before I posted. Thanks for bringing it to the forefront, FJ.

The regulations and attitudes have created a preposterous situation haven't they? Dogs not allowed to train because they are deemed "dangerous". Dogs are dangerous because they're not allowed to train. Go figure.

Used the liquid. Due to Kal's reaction (vomiting/diarreha) to the Kbr, we returned to PB only (under Vet supervision) and upped the PB. This made her somewhat slower, but the illness subsided. Seizures were at first controlled by PB alone (Kal was having GM's) and reason for adding Kbr was that after a short period of no seizures, mini-seizures began to occur on a frequent basis (mainly "head-tapping"). I did not find Kbr made a difference, but I didn't keep her on it for a very long period of time due to her not coping with that medication. Sadly, Kal's condition took over her quality of life fairly quickly which is why I sent her with her wings. So in fairness to either medication, I have to say she wasn't on it for a great deal of time to properly determine success levels as far as seizures over a long time are concerned.

Yep. That's why all the dogs we train and work with hate us and hate what they do ....................... not. You've actually made very clear here how little you know about how dogs learn. Shall I explain? ..... no - unless you can honestly tell me to the contrary, I doubt your mind is open to learning. But I'll give a hint. How do you think dogs in the wild learn? Oooooooh. Thanks. Oh. So you're one of the many who take on the approach that BECAUSE training collars are used, that's ALL that is used. Mmmmmm. Must admit, I have noticed that there are more than one of you. Ummmm, when does YOUR brain come into the equation? Oh yes. This one. A common reference point. HERE's a link to a post I made about this some time ago. I think it explains it. But in case you don't take the interest to visit there, I'll ask you ..... do you really see dolphins thrust into and amongst society and our modern, busy and often dangerous environment as dogs are? Certainly coming across that way. But even still, I reply only because there might be hope for you yet, even though I suspect none. You write a lot but say nothing. For all we know, you could be speaking of agility training. Not running that sport down nor the work that goes behind achieving high level titles. But the only thing (most times) that happens when your dog makes a mistake is the loss of a pass and/or title, and the trophy that goes with it. What happens when the mistake involves a busy road and a truck, or some such?

There's a couple of things (that I know of) that you can do: Increase PB doseage. Use "Bromapex" (Potassium Bromide) As I recall (and my memory could now be deceiving me) the information I learnt about it at the time:- The problem with PB is that it tends to "dope" your dog up. So, whilst it stops the seizures (which IS important), it can also slow the dog right down. Bromapex doesn't have as much a tendancy to "dope" the dog up (as much, anyway), however I understand the dog's body can tend to become "used" to the doseage to the point it no longer has effect. You can, however, use both the PB and the Bromapex in conjunction with each other. Of course, doseages and any proposed change to medications should ALWAYS be discussed with your Vet first. Unfortunately, Bromapex didn't 'sit' well with my girl and caused her to vomit and gave her diarrhea. My darlin's condition was complex and related to adrenal tumour as well as brain tumour. She was not on the meds for a great length of time before I could not help but give her the greatest gift I could manage ........ her 'wings'. So I'm afraid I can't give you much more first hand information than that. If you google for Phenobarbitone as well as for Potassium Bromide you should come up with a list of the possible adverse reactions, which, whilst not necessarily going to occur with your dog, are worth noting. I was going through a bad and emotional time with my girl's condition/illness at the time of giving her these meds, so I find my memory of the details of the meds quite hazy (even though, at the time, I researched and understood them very thoroughly).

Is the puppy kinda at "Pets at Home" (Narre Warren) running over Christmas? Do you know, Haven?

Maybe she didn't do so on purpose. Maybe she just doesn't know and/or understand as much as she thinks. The key to a good trainer (and, for that matter, anyone in any field) is to know when you don't know................ and research to find out.

Yep ... you're right. I can. On a serious note, though, I really do hope you can work something out without needing to resort to de-barking. On a lesser serious note, however, I really love the way you phrase things. :D

I wondered that too, R.

On the basis of "everything else failing", then yes. I agree with you and fully understand, Ellz.

..... sorry, but your "frog-dogging" description makes me smile. It does sound extreme, Ellz. I admit. And sorry for all the questions - they need to be asked and asked over given we don't get to see (and hear ) first hand what this dog is like. In fact, your description above makes me wonder about OCD . Of course, for that to be determined, it would need much more than simply conversation over the net. Now ........ this IS A LONGSHOT (by a mile plus some). But I wonder how he would be with a DAP Diffuser. Naturally, he'd need to be inside for this .... but I just wonder. Of course, I'm not suggesting that would cure the whole problem, but if he did improve in its presence, it could hint as to whether this barking was based in anxiety. (If he doesn't improve, then it proves nothing either way.) I'm also wondering (yep ..... ANOTHER - and even bigger - LONGSHOT) about diet and whether this might be having an affect (did you mention diet earlier? sorry if you have ... I might have forgotten). Do you see where I'm going with this? Are we dealing with anxiety at some level here? Also, is this dog more hyper than what you've been used to? (IE Would you consider his level of activity to be abnormal in comparison with others of his litter/breeding.) Yep - forever the behaviourist, that's me. I like to try to cover all possible bases. :D

Good and valid point to raise, HP. In fact you describe very well the type of 'sound' most de-barked dogs make once the surgery and healing is complete. De-barking is not a total eradication of the barking noise. It simply reduces the decibles, but I agree ... it can be almost just as annoying. In addition, it is possible for vocal cords to grow back over and the dog's bark can return.

Oh - something else to query ..... how long has this dog been back with you? And what level of obedience training has it reached (are you furthering)?

If that's the case, then it may still be that he remains a suitable candidate for the RT/e-collar. If you believe/feel having him microchipped is going to have an adverse affect in your behavioural modification treatment program with him, then I'd probably be even more warey of the stresses that will be involved in relation to the process of surgery, anaesthesia and surgery recovery at the Vets. I would still continue to suggest that "de-barking" shouldn't be a step to be decided on until ALL other efforts have been properly trialled to determine as to whether this dog's barking behaviour can be managed to a more acceptable level. What sort of exercise and mental stimulation is the dog provided with and what training methods are applied?

IF this is the case, Ellz, then I'd say he's a perfect candidate for the e-collar (I'm assuming he's a reasonably confident dog in temperament). The good thing about a Remote Trainer is that you don't have to be outside with the dog. If the dog barks for no good reason, you can remotely operate the stimulation. Or, of course, you could try an anti-bark e-collar .... again I speak without having seen the dog myself and am relying wholly and soley on your own description, interpretation and observations Ellz. If the e-collar does prove successful, you've saved your dog from the stress of surgery. What do dogs think/feel about not having a voice they can function with normally? I don't know. Nor do I believe anyone could know. I expect if we could ask them they'd suggest it is a better option than being pts, but I would imagine they'd rather a less stressful and invasive procedure if they could avoid it. All we can do is everything in our power to give them an opportunity to learn the more acceptable behaviour before we take drastic measures into our own hands. ETA: Of course, you'd know to grab every opportunity you can (on a fairly frequent basis in these early days) to praise and reward the dog when he is being quiet.